From zero to NanoClaw (Interview) ·

00:00

What's up friends welcome back this is the change log. What of the most important viable thing

朋友们好啊，欢迎回来，这里是 Change Log。那最重要、最可行的东西呢

00:07

you own your crown jewels was code you just gave away for free the same weekend that you wrote it well

你拥有的皇冠明珠，就是你刚

00:13

This week I'm talking to Gabrielle Cohen the creator of NanoClaw about exactly that bet we discuss why

这周我和 NanoClaw 的创作者 Gabrielle Cohen 聊的正是那个赌注，我们会讨论为什么

00:20

Restrictive open source licenses are pointless in a world where agents can rewrite any code base in 12 languages overnight

在一个 agents 能一夜之间用 12 种语言重写任何 code base 的世界里，限制性的 open source licenses 根本没用

00:27

How he sat down with a cloud code that didn't even know open-claw existed and built NanoClaw from a blank slate the moment

他如何坐下来用一个甚至不知道 open-claw 存在的 cloud code，从一张白纸开始构建 NanoClaw，就在那一刻

00:34

Carpathy tweeted and shut down a marketing agency doing hundreds of thousands in ARR and Gabrielle's vision for a human-centered future where every

Carpathy 发了推文，还关掉了一家 ARR 做到几十万的营销机构，以及 Gabrielle 对以人为本未来的愿景：在那里每个

00:44

Knowledge worker becomes a manager of hundreds of agents heads up

知识工作者都会变成数百个 agents 的管理者。提醒一下

00:49

I'm going to live show with Taylor Ottwell at resend forward check it out at resend.com slash forward and I hope to see you there a

我要和 Taylor Ottwell 在 resend forward 做一场 live show，去 resend.com/forward 看看吧，希望能在那里见到你啊

00:57

Massive thank you to our friends and our partners at fly.io that is the home of

非常感谢我们的朋友和合作伙伴 fly.io，这里是

01:03

Change love.com your agents in the computer and that is what they built learn more at fly.io

Change love.com，你的 agents 在电脑里，而这就是他们打造的东西，了解更多请访问 fly.io

01:11

Okay, let's do this

好，我们开始吧

01:19

Well friends this episode is brought to you by our friends at coder.com secure environments were developers and

好了朋友们，本期节目由我们的朋友 coder.com 赞助，secure environments，让 developers 和

01:25

Agents work in parallel and I'm joined by Nicky Pike field CTO for coder. Nicky, what is a field CTO?

agents 并行工作；今天和我一起的是 coder 的 field CTO Nicky Pike。Nicky，什么是 field CTO？

01:33

So I get that question a lot and it's you know have the people understand it have the people don't so field CTO

这个问题我经常被问到，你知道，有的人懂，有的人不懂，所以 field CTO

01:38

I describe it very simply as we're dev realm for the C-sweep so we provide a bridge between the customer voice between the C-sweep

我把它很简单地描述为：我们就是面向 C-sweep 的 dev realm，所以我们在客户的声音和 C-sweep 之间搭起一座桥梁

01:46

And the managers and the leadership teams of our customers back into our product and then we go through and we help

以及我们客户的经理和领导团队，把这些带回到我们的产品里，然后我们会逐步去帮助他们

01:51

Enable our teams to to have the same message to make sure that the message is correct

让我们的团队能有统一的 message，确保这个 message 是正确的

01:55

And that we're building on something that people actually want not just something that we think they want

而且我们是在人们真正想要的东西上做构建，而不只是我们觉得他们想要的东西

01:59

Okay, so we're taking the laptop away from the developer not really though

Okay，所以我们要把 laptop 从开发者那里拿走——不过其实也不是真的

02:04

We're putting them in a cloud development environment a secure environment where they can work with their agents

我们要把他们放进一个 cloud development environment，一个安全的环境，让他们可以在里面和 agents 一起工作

02:08

In parallel these are blessed environments. What's wrong with the laptop?

与此同时，这些是 blessed environments。laptop 有什么问题？

02:12

The laptop is the is the trap here and not only because the fact that it could be stolen

laptop 就是，就是这里的陷阱，而且不只是因为它可能被偷

02:17

You could lose it at breaks and you're out of work while you're waiting for a new one

你可能会在休息的时候把它弄丢，然后等新 laptop 的时候就没法工作了

02:19

But there's also just the consistency that you got there

但还有就是你在这里得到的一致性

02:22

We all know developers developers are going to be looking for some of the latest and greatest

我们都知道，developers developers 总是会去找一些最新最好的东西

02:25

And if you're not really controlling how they get out there

而如果你没有真正控制它们是怎么被发布出去的

02:28

That's where you get this it works on my machine

这时候就会出现这种“it works on my machine”的情况

02:30

It doesn't work on production it doesn't work anywhere else because you don't have that consistency

它在 production 上不行，在其他任何地方也都不行，因为你没有那种一致性

02:33

You don't have that ability to really standardize what that environment looks like

你也没有能力真正把那个环境标准化，规定它到底该是什么样

02:38

And this is a problem not only for new people coming in you know the onboarding statement as it average

而且这不仅对新来的人是个问题，你知道，onboarding statement 平均来说

02:43

I think is like four to five weeks for a new employee to really get their their local laptops set up

我觉得，一个新员工真正把他们的本地笔记本电脑设置好，大概要四到五周

02:47

And ready to start doing their first time of code

然后准备好第一次开始写 code

02:49

And you know the time to first commit is a metric that almost everybody knows

而且你知道，time to first commit 是一个几乎所有人都知道的 metric

02:53

And the reason they can't do that is because there's a lot of tribal knowledge out there

而他们做不到的原因是，外面有太多 tribal knowledge

02:56

They got to go talk to other developers

他们得去跟其他开发者聊

02:57

What are we using? Where do we get our dependencies?

我们在用什么？我们的 dependencies 是从哪儿来的？

02:59

Are we getting them from public? Are we getting them from private repositories

我们是从 public 拿的？还是从 private repositories 拿的？

03:02

But there's also the security and the supply chain aspect of this when you have local machines out there

但当你外面有 local machines 的时候，这里面还涉及 security 和 supply chain 的层面

03:08

Look at like the shy halad

看看比如 shy halad

03:09

You know that virus that went out not long ago

你知道那个不久前传出去的 virus 吧

03:12

This was a compromise of the MPM public repositories

这次是 MPM public repositories 被 compromise 了

03:15

They went and downloaded things, MPM did what it did

他们就去下载东西，MPM 做了它会做的事

03:18

Next thing you know you're compromised

结果一转眼你就被 compromise 了

03:20

But when you use something like what we're doing with cloud development environments

但当你用上类似我们现在在 cloud development environments 里做的这种做法时

03:24

Then you can mandate and you can put restrictions on there to say hey

那你就可以强制规定，也可以在那里加限制，说嘿

03:27

You can only go get your packages from our private repo

你只能从我们的 private repo 里获取你的 packages

03:30

Those packages are expected to have been thoroughly vetted

这些 packages 应该都已经经过彻底审查了

03:33

We know that they're clean now does this stop everything like shy halad

我们知道它们现在是干净的，但这能阻止像 shy halad 这样的所有情况吗

03:37

No if that compromise package gets into your private repo

不，如果那个 compromise package 进了你的 private repo

03:40

You can still have that but it really reduces the surface area of the attack

你仍然可以有那个，但它真的会缩小 attack 的 surface area

03:43

And it also reduces the blast area of the compromise should it happen

而且如果 compromise 真的发生了，它也会缩小 blast area

03:48

Because if your laptop gets compromised and you have to kill the laptop for whatever reason

因为如果你的 laptop 被 compromise 了，而且不管什么原因你都得把 laptop kill 掉

03:53

That's weeks out of work while you're either fixing that or you're getting a new laptop in

那就会好几周没法工作，因为你要么在修它，要么在等新的 laptop 到

03:57

The cloud development environment allows you to kill that

而 cloud development environment 让你可以直接 kill 掉它

03:59

Start back up fresh and you're back and running in five minutes

重新干净启动，五分钟就又能跑起来

04:03

You don't have to wait all that time

你不用等那么久

04:04

Well friends the first step is to go to coder.com

好吧朋友们，第一步是去 coder.com

04:08

Install coder

安装 coder

04:09

Self-hosted environments for your teams to enjoy

让你的团队享受 self-hosted 环境

04:12

To standardize around and it's open source so you can try it out today

大家可以围绕它统一标准，而且它是 open source，所以你今天就能试试

04:16

Once again coder.com

再说一次，coder.com

04:18

So we're here with Gabrielle Cohen

现在我们请到了 Gabrielle Cohen

04:40

Creator of nano-cloth

nano-cloth 的创作者

04:42

One of the many claws

众多 claws 之一

04:44

And you might even say from back back in the day

你甚至可以说，从很久很久以前

04:46

Claude bot started this all right like it was

Claude bot 开启了这一切，对吧，就像它当初那样

04:50

It was a pretty interesting time wasn't it called Claude bot

那真是挺有意思的一段时间，它当时不是叫 Claude bot 吗？

04:53

What not what I was called initially

什么？不，那是我一开始被叫的名字

04:55

They sort of set this all off back in like January, February this time

他们差不多是在今年一月、二月那会儿把这一切都带起来的

04:58

Yeah when I when I found the project it was called Claude bot

对，我，我找到这个项目的时候，它就叫 Claude bot

05:02

And then it became multiple for like two days

然后它变成了 multiple，大概持续了两天

05:04

Right then open glow

对，然后就是 open glow

05:07

What do you think about the I guess the direction of the name

你觉得——我猜——这个名字的方向怎么样

05:11

Even like just getting to the world of claws

甚至就像，刚刚进入 claws 的世界

05:15

Yeah, it's it's an interesting name

是啊，这，这是个挺有意思的名字

05:18

I don't know

我不知道

05:19

There's something about it that's a little bit

它有那么点……有点

05:23

Little bit playful maybe a little bit aggressive

有点俏皮，也许还有点攻击性

05:26

Um, but I think with nano-cloth I tried to take it into a more friendly

嗯，但我觉得，用 nano-cloth 的时候，我试着把它带向更友好的

05:32

Uh side and and

呃，一面，而且，而且

05:35

I think the names does that a little bit but also our logo

我觉得名字有一点点这种效果，但我们的 logo 也是

05:38

This little blue lobster cute guy instead of an angry red guy

这个蓝色龙虾的小可爱，而不是一个愤怒的红色家伙

05:43

Yeah, no the red is kind of reason that blue is a bit more

对，不是，红色在某种程度上就是蓝色更……的原因

05:47

Color science right like uh

Color science 嘛，对吧，就像，呃

05:50

soothing aren't uh aren't most things that are blue kind of

让人舒缓，对吧？呃，大多数蓝色的东西不都有点……

05:53

soothing water soothing right and then that how they get associated something like that

让人舒缓，水也让人舒缓，对吧，然后它们就是这样被联系到一起的，差不多这样

05:59

I think so I think brands that want

我觉得是，我觉得那些想要……的品牌

06:03

They want you to trust them

它们想让你信任它们

06:06

Blue

06:09

What do you think about the state we're in with uh

你觉得我们现在所处的状态怎么样，呃

06:14

I guess how drastically things have changed

我猜，事情变化得有多剧烈

06:17

And at what point did you get inspired by the work of Peter Steinberg and what was going on there to then create nano-cloth

还有，你是在什么时候受到 Peter Steinberg 的工作启发，当时那边是什么情况，然后才创建了 nano-cloth

06:25

How did this trail end for you? What's your journey here?

这条路最后对你来说是怎么收尾的？你这一路是怎么过来的？

06:29

So I actually started to

所以其实我开始

06:32

Play around with open claw in

玩 open claw，是在

06:35

Early January I downloaded it. I set it up

一月初，我下载了它。我把它设置好了

06:38

It didn't stick for some reason and then end of January

不知道为啥没坚持下来，然后到了一月底

06:43

I came back to it. I had been messing around with I actually got a mac mini and was just running background

我又回来用它了。我之前一直在瞎折腾，其实我搞了台 mac mini，就只是在跑一些后台

06:49

Cloud code tasks on it

在上面跑 Cloud code tasks

06:52

And then but I was looking for something that gave me a bit more of like ability to to schedule tasks in a nicer way and cleaner way

然后我当时就在找一个东西，能让我多一点，就是能更顺手、更干净地安排任务

07:00

And then so I came back to

然后我就又回来用

07:02

Open claw

07:03

Set it up

把它搭起来了

07:05

I was building at the time a AI native marketing agency

我当时正在做一家 AI native marketing agency

07:09

So using agents for all kinds of stuff

就用 agents 来做各种事情

07:11

Content optimization and whatnot and then

做内容优化什么的，然后

07:14

I just set it up and

我就把它设置好了

07:17

gave it access to an obsidian drive that had

让它能访问一个 obsidian drive，里面有

07:20

Files for each of the customers that I was talking with and the customers that I had signed

每个我正在聊的客户、以及我已经签下的客户的文件

07:25

And I just set it up there and I said you are my sales manager and you manage my sales pipeline

然后我就在那儿把它设置好，我说你是我的 sales manager，你来管理我的 sales pipeline

07:32

and just figure out a system for doing it and

然后自己琢磨出一套做这件事的系统

07:35

You know basically that's it and then I connected it to a WhatsApp group of myself and my co-founder

你知道，基本上就这样，然后我把它连到了一个 WhatsApp 群里，里面是我和我的联合创始人

07:41

and it started to send us

然后它开始给我们发

07:43

morning

早上

07:44

sales briefings

销售简报

07:46

Sales stand-ups each morning and

每天早上都有销售 stand-up，还有

07:49

Updates and whatnot and I was like this is wild like within a day. It was doing the work of person doing it quite well

更新之类的，我当时就想，这也太离谱了，居然一天之内它就把原来那个人干的活儿干得相当好

07:57

Interesting

有意思

07:58

Yeah, and then

对，然后

08:00

So I mean that was working and I was like wow, okay, there's actually real value here, which was surprising to me

所以我是说，那东西确实能跑起来，我当时就想，哇，好吧，这里确实有真正的价值，这让我挺意外的

08:05

Because I was like it's just I've been using cloud code for a year then and you know coding agents for a little bit longer than that and

因为我当时就是觉得，这不就是……我用 cloud code 已经有一年了，然后你知道，用 coding agents 的时间还比那更长一点，而且

08:13

I didn't really initially understand like

我一开始其实没太搞懂，就像

08:15

What's actually new here that I didn't have before and it took a little while

这里到底有什么是我以前没有的、真正新的东西，而且我花了一点时间才弄明白

08:21

I spent like a week trying to figure it out

我花了大概一个星期试图搞明白这件事

08:23

But I saw some security issues. I saw some problems that concerned me as I was setting it up and started to use it

但我看到了一些安全问题。我在设置它、开始用的时候，看到了一些让我担心的问题

08:29

And I didn't feel like it was production it was production ready

而且我不觉得它已经到 production、已经 production ready 了

08:33

OpenClaw

08:34

So and I wanted to build a business with lots of agents running on top of it. So I just sat down and

所以我想做一门业务，让很多 agents 跑在它上面。于是我就坐下来，然后

08:39

Set it to build my own project to which became nanoClaw

开始做我自己的项目，后来这个项目变成了 nanoClaw

08:43

What was that process for you where you

那个过程对你来说是什么样的，当时你——

08:46

I'm not familiar with your full history you mentioned marketing agency help me understand how

我不太了解你的完整经历，你提到过营销机构，帮我理解一下那是怎么回事

08:52

And don't take this as a pejorative, but how developer were you prior to this like were you deep in development?

别把这当成贬义，但在这之前你的 developer 程度有多高？比如你之前在 development 上有多深入？

08:58

Did you learn on the job? Did you learn as you built nanoClaw like what's your developer journey when it comes to this? Yeah

你是在工作中边做边学的吗？你是在做 nanoClaw 的过程中学的吗？比如在这件事上，你的 developer 历程是怎样的？对

09:05

I was full developer before this

在这之前我就是个全职 developer

09:08

I so I studied physics and computer science right you wrote code by hand yourself

我——所以我学的是物理和计算机科学，对吧，你是自己手写代码的？

09:13

I wrote many many lines of code with these fingers. Yeah. I studied physics

我用这几根手指写了非常非常多行代码。对。我学的是物理。

09:18

I studied physics and computer science at Tel Aviv University

我在 Tel Aviv University 学的物理和计算机科学

09:21

I didn't learn how to code in university. I just learned like you know how to reverse trees and stuff like that

我在大学里没学过怎么写 code。我学的就是，你知道，怎么 reverse trees 之类的

09:27

But I worked at wicks.com

但我曾在 wicks.com 工作过

09:29

I was there for seven years and was a front end developer full stack developer and led a team of developers there

我在那儿待了七年，做过 front end developer、full stack developer，还带了一个 developer 团队

09:36

And I

然后我

09:40

So I'd actually stopped doing development for

其实我后来已经不做 development 了，大概

09:46

About four years. I took off from development. I

有四年吧。我离开了 development。我

09:49

It when you work I mean, I'm sure you've seen this you work as a developer for a while at some point

就是当你工作，我是说，我敢肯定你见过这种情况，你当 developer 干了一段时间，到了某个时候

09:54

You start managing people and then it stops becoming software development and it just becomes managing people

你开始管人，然后它就不再是 software development 了，而纯粹变成了管人。

10:00

And I got to a point where I felt like

然后我到了某个阶段，我会觉得

10:03

Anytime I was writing code it was because I was procrastinating from like doing some something I was supposed to be doing

每次我写代码，都是因为我在拖延，像是在逃避我本该去做的某件事。

10:09

And it wasn't as much fun anymore

而且它不再那么有意思了。

10:11

So I took some time off I spent like four years doing public relations working with tech startups a lot of cyber security

所以我休息了一段时间，大概四年在做公关，跟 tech startups 合作，很多是 cyber security 领域的。

10:18

AI ML and and dev startups and helping them

AI、ML 和 dev startups，帮他们

10:24

Really really technical companies helping them talk about

帮那些非常非常技术型的公司去讲

10:28

Super in the weed stuff in a way

把那些超级深入细节的东西用一种方式讲出来

10:30

That would be understandable by a wider audience and resonate and you know

那样更广泛的受众能理解，也能产生共鸣，而且你知道

10:35

Get reporters interested in whatnot. So

让记者们对这些东西感兴趣。所以

10:39

I spent time doing that and then

我花时间做了这些，然后

10:42

Started to build an AI native marketing agency as a new business

开始搭建一家 AI native 的营销机构，作为一项新业务

10:45

And that's how I got to to open claw and then nano claw

就这样我到了 open claw，然后是 nano claw

10:49

Yeah, it's a real bummer that that's how the arc was I suppose. I'm not sure what the arc is now. Do we

是啊，如果轨迹就是这样，那真挺遗憾的，我想。我也不确定现在轨迹是什么了。我们

10:56

Do you do software development now? I mean you're kind of back in the same realm right you're sort of managing agents

你现在做 software development 吗？我是说，你有点回到同一个领域了，对吧，你现在有点像是在管理 agents

11:02

Which are like people so you end up managing

而 agents 就像人一样，所以你最后就是在做管理

11:05

Things or entities or what are you going to call them to do the coding work right and so you're kind of back in this

那些东西，或者 entities，或者你打算怎么称呼它们，来做 coding 工作，对吧，所以你有点像又回到这个

11:11

Manager dubbed you feel that or do you feel like you're still

被叫作 manager 的你，是这么觉得，还是觉得自己仍然

11:15

Close to the middle I

更接近中间。我

11:17

Feel now. I mean, it's it's a really good question and and I think it's

现在的感觉是。我是说，这真的是个很好的问题，而且我觉得这

11:22

We're still figuring it out right where where this is all going definitely not at the end point yet, but

我们还在摸索，对吧，这一切到底会往哪儿走，肯定还没到终点，但是

11:29

The way I feel now is

我现在的感觉是

11:31

Not like a manager because I don't have to talk to people about you know

不像个 manager，因为我不用跟人聊，你知道的

11:36

Taking their time off and how they're feeling and like motivation levels

他们的休假、他们的感受，还有积极性这些

11:41

I do like to get my agents motivated. I like to be like great job guys like

我确实喜欢给我的 agents 打打气。我喜欢那种，干得好，各位，就像

11:47

We're really on a roll here

我们现在真是势头正猛

11:49

But um and I think there is a little bit of that management thing that works with agents

但嗯，我觉得跟 agents 一起干活时，那种管理上的东西确实有点用

11:54

But it's more my role as a software developer. I feel as more of an architect

但这更多是我作为 software developer 的角色。我感觉自己更像一个 architect

11:59

So I'm giving the big vision and the design and

所以我在给出大方向和设计，然后

12:05

They're implementing it and I know I guess for some developers. I don't know how you feel about it for me

他们去实现它，我知道，我猜对一些 developers 来说。我不知道你怎么看，但对我来说

12:12

It wasn't so much about the you know writing the code typing out the code

它其实不太在于，你知道，写代码、把代码敲出来

12:18

I never got really good with

我从来都没真正擅长过

12:21

you know

你知道的

12:23

150 or whatever words per minute

每分钟150词，或者随便多少吧

12:25

I was always a bit slower the typing and it took time to think about things and I think where I brought the most value was

我打字总是有点慢，思考东西也要花时间，我觉得我带来最大价值的地方

12:31

in

在于

12:32

figuring out what we can cut out and how we can simplify things and write less code so

弄清楚我们能砍掉什么，怎么把东西简化，写更少的 code，所以

12:38

um

呃

12:39

I like the role of being an architect rather than typing out code

我喜欢做 architect 这个角色，而不是去敲 code

12:43

Yeah

对

12:45

Let's dig into that because I feel like that's um

我们来深入聊聊这个，因为我觉得那是，嗯

12:49

That's what we're all kind of moving towards right and for those who don't really have that architect brain

那就是我们大家多多少少都在朝着的方向，对吧，而对那些并没有那种 architect 大脑的人来说

12:56

Oh, or just like the natural tendency to like architect things. That's what I naturally do. I think

哦，或者只是那种自然而然想去 architect 东西的倾向。那是我天生会做的事。我觉得

13:02

uh

呃

13:03

Anybody who's been in a product manager role

任何做过 product manager 的人

13:06

Anybody who's been in a UX designer type role front-end role

任何做过 UX designer 这类岗位、front-end 岗位的人

13:12

I suppose many developers to your problem solving, but are you always architecting? I think a lot of those roles really lean into

我猜很多 developers 也一样，说到解决问题，但你总是在 architect 吗？我觉得很多这类角色真的很倾向于

13:19

this

这一点

13:21

architectural kind of feel

一种 architectural 的感觉

13:24

I feel that's what I do a lot is like I suggest

我感觉我很多时候做的，就是像在提建议

13:27

Intent I suggest

我建议 Intent

13:31

Not every single detail of what I'm trying to build with an agent for example

比如，并不是我想用 agent 搭建的每一个细节

13:36

um

嗯

13:37

But I end up kind of giving the world. I want to live in what are some of the things that are true about that world

但最后我有点像在给出我想生活的那个世界。那个世界里有哪些事情是真的

13:44

You know, what are the things that are untrue about that world?

你知道，那个世界里有哪些事情是不真实的？

13:47

You know, what are the do's and don'ts and

你知道，什么是该做的、什么是不该做的，还有

13:50

It's it's kind of like taste

这，这有点像品味

13:52

um

嗯

13:53

But I think it's more like architect and intent and what should happen

但我觉得这更像是 architect 和 intent，以及应该发生什么

13:57

And I think a lot of that stems from like understanding user experience or even just workflows and problem solving

而且我觉得这很大程度上来自理解 user experience，或者甚至只是 workflows 和解决问题

14:03

Um, I feel that's the world we're in now is like is that

嗯，我感觉这就是我们现在所处的世界，就像，是不是这样

14:07

The majority of folks are building that way like they're they're becoming an architect versus

大多数人都是那样构建的，就像他们，他们正在成为 architect，而不是

14:12

Maybe a manager. I hate being a manager of I think that rather architect things what about you

也许是个 manager。我讨厌当 manager，我觉得我更愿意做 architect 的事，你呢

14:18

Yeah, I think there are I guess like you're saying multiple roles

是啊，我觉得有，我猜就像你说的，有多种角色

14:24

In managing agents

在管理 agents 这件事上

14:25

I think the baseline is you have to be able to manage them, but then

我觉得基本要求是你得能管理它们，但接下来

14:29

There's the role of the architect. There's the role of the

有 architect 这个角色。还有

14:32

UX

14:34

engineer and and product um, and I think you have to have

engineer 和、和 product，嗯，而且我觉得你得有

14:39

Another kind of like to stand on besides just I know how to manage coding agents

另一种能站得住脚的东西，而不只是“我知道怎么管理 coding agents”

14:44

I think you got to bring something else to it, but it could be

我觉得你得给这件事带来点别的东西，但它可能是

14:48

It maybe doesn't have to be the architect

它也许不一定是 architect

14:50

um, I think

嗯，我觉得

14:54

Yeah, the

是啊，那个

14:57

the agent manager

那个 agent manager

15:00

I mean we're going to a place where it's like agents managing agents when you kick off a workflow

我的意思是，我们会走到一个地方，就像当你启动一个 workflow 时，agent 在管理 agent

15:05

um with

嗯，和

15:07

fable

15:09

five uh

five，呃

15:11

in many cases

在很多情况下

15:14

You give it a a very basic direction and it goes off for hours and oh my gosh managing all the agents and orchestrating them

你给它一个很基础的方向，它就会自己跑好几个小时，天哪，管理所有 agents 并 orchestrating 它们

15:22

so

所以

15:25

I do think that

我确实觉得

15:27

the engineering and and architecting

engineering 和 architecting

15:31

probably is shifting to

可能正在转向

15:33

like you're mentioning the um

就像你提到的，那个，嗯

15:36

I'm architecting architecting the world that this agent lives in and the feedback that it gets and what's true for it

我在 architecting、architecting 这个 agent 所生活的世界，以及它得到的 feedback，还有对它来说什么是真实的

15:43

and what it knows and sees

以及它知道什么、看到什么

15:44

rather than um telling it how to build the software

而不是呃，告诉它该怎么构建这个 software

15:48

um and and I think that's the next evolution to me

呃，而且而且我觉得，对我来说，这就是下一个演进

15:53

The when people are talking about um about loops and and building loops and whatnot for me

当人们在谈论呃，关于 loops，还有搭建 loops 之类的，对我来说

16:00

It's about it's not about a wild loop. It's about

它关乎的是，不是 wild loop。它关乎的是

16:03

orchestrating or engineering some kind of architecting some kind of feedback loop

去 orchestrate 或 engineer 某种、architect 某种 feedback loop

16:08

Right

对

16:09

gives the agent signal and information about what to do and what to build

给 agent 信号和信息，告诉它该做什么、该构建什么

16:13

Yeah

嗯

16:15

That's kind of funny. I still haven't perfected and uh maybe you have with uh your work this idea of loops

这有点好笑。我还没把 loops 这个想法做到完美，呃，也许你在你的工作里已经做到了

16:21

and this idea of cues and I've you've you've heard lots of things with folks

还有 cues 这个想法，我——你你你已经从很多人那里听过很多说法了

16:26

Suggesting this is the era of cues and loops now like that's what we should focus on not prompts

说现在这是 cues 和 loops 的时代，就像我们应该关注的是这个，而不是 prompts

16:32

or prompt engineering more like context engineering like do you have enough context build up

或者 prompt engineering，而更像是 context engineering，就像你有没有积累起足够的 context

16:36

so I could just say go and do it

这样我就能直接说：去，把它做了

16:39

and that small go and do it phrase actually has so much context behind it

而那句短短的“去，把它做了”，背后其实有那么多 context

16:45

I feel like um

我感觉，嗯

16:48

Something I experienced recently was just having one agent talk to another agent

我最近经历过的一件事，就是让一个 agent 跟另一个 agent 对话

16:54

and how

以及如何

16:55

That agents context and its role as a reviewer

那个 agent 的 context，以及它作为 reviewer 的角色

16:59

Maybe a PR maybe it's uh code reviews something like that

也许是一个 PR，也许是呃 code reviews 之类的

17:03

Kind of reprops the initial agent that's actually leading most of the work the one that I'm architecting with the one that has

有点像重新 prompt 那个 initial agent，它实际上主导了大部分工作，就是我在与之一起架构的那个，那个拥有

17:10

The majority of the plans context and the one that's in charge so to speak

大部分 plans 的 context，以及可以说是管事的那一个

17:15

Of the one or many sub agents like that whole loop of not just the context you build up by

负责一个或多个 sub agent，就像整个 loop，不只是你通过以下方式积累起来的 context

17:21

Documenting what you're building or thinking about it and architecting it like that

记录你正在构建或在思考的东西，并像那样去架构它

17:26

But that a sub agent or a side agent can then go into a coder view or a poor request review or something like that

但那个 sub agent 或 side agent 之后可以进入 code review 或 pull request review 之类的

17:32

Which reprops the main agents like almost they

这又反过来支撑了主要的 agents，几乎就像它们

17:36

Getting yang in a way where it's the fish eating the fish tail kind of thing where it's like if you kind of keep this dance going

以一种鱼吃鱼尾巴的方式获得 yang，就是那种如果你一直让这支舞继续下去的感觉

17:42

With one prompting another as long as your context is true with what you were trying to architect

一个 prompt 另一个，只要你的 context 和你想要架构的东西保持一致

17:48

Well, it's on mission. I you don't need a course correct it really at all it goes

嗯，它就在使命上。我——你根本不需要 course correct 它，它真的就会自己走

17:55

I think that's even more true or maybe more true now with

我觉得这甚至更成立，或者说现在更成立，尤其是随着

18:01

Fable uh five and these this new class of models where they seem to be more capable now of

Fable 呃 five，以及这些——这一新一类 models，它们现在似乎更有能力做到

18:09

open-ended

18:11

Kind of work where the task isn't very well defined and it requires decisions and judgment

那种任务定义得不是很清楚、需要做决定和判断的工作

18:17

And and I think that is starting to become the reality where you can

而且而且我觉得，这正在开始变成一种现实：你可以

18:22

You can give it

你可以给它

18:24

maybe more like

也许更像是

18:25

values and and and principles of

价值观，还有还有还有……的原则，关于

18:29

what your preferences are and your taste and your choices and

你的偏好是什么、你的品味、你的选择，还有

18:33

Then let it reason from those principles and values about how the subject should be designed

然后让它根据那些原则和价值观去推理，这个对象应该怎么设计

18:38

I think it probably will become more important for projects to have

我觉得，项目拥有……可能会变得越来越重要

18:42

Have those kinds of documents like it's clawed MD

拥有那种文档，就像它的 CLAUDE.md 一样

18:46

I think is probably in a go away in terms of like

我觉得这大概会慢慢消失，就……

18:49

Use this kind of linting thing or use the you know this pattern when you're writing out functions

用这种 linting 的东西，或者用你知道的，这种写 functions 时的 pattern

18:54

And instead it's more like what are what's the ethos and values and principles behind how I want to build and what we're trying to do

而相反，它更像是：我想怎么构建、我们想做什么，这背后的理念、价值观和原则是什么

19:02

Yeah

对

19:03

How long did it take you to get to something that was usable like how long did you

你花了多久才做到能用的东西？就是，你花了多久……

19:09

Not sleep did your

没睡觉？你的……

19:12

Family miss you did you stop eating what did you turn into an AI vampire like like this famous

家人想你了吗？你是不是不吃东西了？你是不是变成了一个 AI 吸血鬼？就像，就像那个著名的

19:20

Or infamous phrase comes out like what were the initial nano claw days for you when it came to building it and how

或者臭名昭著的说法：对你来说，在构建它这件事上，最初的 nano claw 时期是什么样的，以及怎么……

19:29

Did you I don't want to say this negatively did you copy

你是不是——我不想说得那么负面——你是不是抄了

19:33

Uh ideas from open claw or did you say you know what I got my own idea

呃，open claw 的想法，还是说，你知道吗，我自己有想法？

19:39

There's some good ideas out there, but I I have a plan. I that I think will work better. How do the begin for you

外面是有一些好想法，但我，我有个计划。我，我觉得它会更管用。对你来说，这是怎么开始的？

19:47

So firstly I took five days

所以首先，我花了五天

19:51

roughly

大概

19:52

Where I had

那段时间我让

19:54

Open claw running and I had seen what it could do and I spent like five days

Open claw 一直跑着，我也看到了它能做什么，然后我花了大概五天

19:58

I was going to work taking showers walking the dog

我当时去上班、洗澡、遛狗

20:00

But all the time in the back of my head I was thinking like what what is this new thing like what what what what it

但我脑子里一直想，这个新东西到底是什么，就像，什么什么什么什么它

20:06

Unlock why is this interesting why is it suddenly bringing all this value when it's just running a coding agent

Unlock，为什么这有意思，为什么它突然带来所有这些价值，明明它只是在跑一个 coding agent

20:13

I already had the coding agent like what's the unlock here and I spent a lot of time thinking about that and then

我已经有 coding agent 了，那这里的 unlock 到底是什么，我花了很长时间想这件事，然后

20:20

sat down to write the project once I felt like I had

坐下来写这个项目，是在我觉得自己有了

20:24

A thesis let's say about what what those things are and it was like

一个论点，比如说，关于那些东西到底是什么，然后就像是

20:29

I don't even know if I remember now, but it was like I need memory

我现在甚至都不知道我还记不记得了，但当时就像是，我需要 memory

20:32

I need a persistent session. I need it to be connected to to a browser

我需要一个 persistent session。我需要它连接到 browser

20:37

I think turns out browser is probably not that critical

我觉得，结果发现 browser 可能没那么关键

20:41

And I need it to be in a messaging app. It's like a big I think

而且我需要它是在 messaging app 里。我觉得这像是一个很大的

20:46

Psychological shift when you're talking within a messaging app instead of in a terminal

心理上的转变，当你在 messaging app 里说话，而不是在 terminal 里的时候

20:51

And it's just also the availability it's always there

而且还有可用性，它一直都在那儿

20:55

There was maybe and and then the extensibility the fact that it could like add things and the schedule tasks

可能还有，然后就是 extensibility，就是它可以加东西，还有 schedule tasks

21:00

So being able to schedule jobs for itself that makes it

所以能给自己 schedule jobs，这让它

21:04

Feel at least proactive like it's

至少感觉是主动的，就像它

21:07

Coming to you to update you about stuff instead of you always going to prompt it

会主动来找你，更新你一些事情，而不是你总是去 prompt 它

21:13

So I had this thesis and then I did you know do one of those crazy

所以我有这个想法，然后我就，你知道，做了那种疯狂的

21:19

Marathon coding sessions. I sat down Friday night in my sweatpants on the couch and

马拉松式的 coding sessions。周五晚上我穿着运动裤往沙发上一坐，然后

21:25

this couch air behind me and

这个沙发就在我身后，然后

21:28

And basically like meld it into the couch for the entire weekend till Sunday night

基本上就是把自己融进沙发里，整个周末一直到周日晚上

21:33

I think probably about 40 hours of of like of coding

我觉得大概有 40 个小时的，呃，就那种 coding

21:39

And my wife was like I haven't seen you like this for like 10 years since you were in university

然后我老婆就说，我都有 10 年没见过你这样了，从你上大学那时候起就没有

21:43

This like something wild is going on, but to her credit she like let me go down this rabbit hole and and

这就像是有什么疯狂的事情正在发生，不过她这点很好，她就让我一头扎进这个兔子洞，然后，然后

21:52

first like something's going on

一开始，就好像有什么事情在发生

21:54

And left me to it and then I came out on the other side so it was Sunday

然后就让我自己去弄，后来我从另一头出来了，所以那已经是周日了

21:59

And I was like if I don't release this now

然后我就想，如果我现在不把它发布出去

22:02

I'm going to spend the whole week on this instead of doing my real work which is building my AI

我就要在这件事上花一整个星期，而不是去做我真正的工作，也就是打造我的 AI

22:07

Native agency

22:09

So I just said I just got to release it put it out there

所以我就说，我得把它发布了，放出去

22:15

Mostly AI generated read me which I got a lot of grief about on on hacker news

主要都是 AI 生成的 README，我因为这个在 hacker news 上被骂得很惨

22:22

but

但

22:24

But I published it and people you know it took off like pretty much immediately

但我把它发布了，你知道的，它几乎马上就火了

22:28

I just posted on hacker news and it started to take off and shot up to like

我刚在 hacker news 上发出来，它就开始起飞，一路涨到大概

22:34

Thousand two thousand stars within the first day and I know you know

第一天就有一千两千个 stars，而且我知道你懂的

22:37

I had seen projects go on hacker news and I knew normally they go they'll shoot up

我见过项目上 Hacker News，而且我知道通常它们会，它们会暴涨

22:42

It's like the reverse hockey stick so they like take off and then they just flat line

就像反向的曲棍球杆，它们会先起飞，然后就平了

22:47

um

呃

22:47

But this kind of kept going and it went you know

但这个一直在持续，而且它，你懂的

22:52

500 400 500 stars per day and it just kept going to 8k 10k stars and then a couple so spent like

每天 500、400、500 个 stars，然后它就一直涨到 8k、10k stars，然后我们俩就花了大概

23:01

Two weeks back and forth my co-founder going

两周来回讨论，我的联合创始人一直在说

23:05

Should we keep building this AI marketing agency that we built or should we become the nano club company

我们应该继续做我们建立的这个 AI 营销机构，还是我们应该成为 nano club 公司

23:12

um and

嗯，然后

23:13

going back and forth on it and

在那件事上来回讨论，然后

23:17

Deciding together that okay, let's give nano club another two days

一起决定说，好吧，再给 nano club 两天时间

23:20

Let's invest a little bit more in it and and kind of kick the count down the road and see

咱们再多投入一点，然后算是把倒计时往后推，看看

23:25

Where we're at in a few days and then about two weeks later after the initial launch

过几天我们是什么情况，然后大约在初次发布两周后

23:30

Carpathia undercarpathia tweet did this whole post about clause his his you know claw post

Carpathia undercarpathia tweet 发了这一整篇关于 clause 的帖子，他他，你知道，claw post

23:36

and half of the post was about nano claw

而这篇帖子有一半都在讲 nano claw

23:39

And how I thought it was mind-blowing or slightly blew his mind

还有我觉得它有多让人震撼，或者说稍微让他震撼到了

23:43

And and then it just went to another level and wow it was like clear all right

然后然后它就又上了一个层次，哇，一下子就特别清楚了，好吧

23:47

We got it we got to do this so we we went

我们懂了，我们得做这个，所以我们就去了

23:50

Uh called our our customers at the a native marketing agency and said sorry guys. We got to drop you

呃，给我们那些在 native marketing agency 的客户打电话说：抱歉各位，我们得放弃你们了

23:56

We've got this new thing and and just shut down we had we were ramping up very quickly

我们有了这个新东西，然后就直接关停了。我们当时扩张得非常快

24:01

We were at a few hundred thousand in in error and like really good ramp

我们当时已经做到几十万的 error，而且 ramp 特别好

24:05

Right and we shut it down and

对，然后我们就把它关掉了，然后

24:07

Created nano co as the company building nano claw

成立了 nano co，作为打造 nano claw 的公司

24:12

Wow

哇

24:14

You knew right away you would build a business around this. This wasn't by accident. This was totally

你当时立刻就知道，你会围绕这个做一门生意。这绝不是偶然。这完全是

24:19

Uh what they would call premeditated

呃，就是他们会说的那种有预谋

24:23

No, not at all premeditated. So we I built it just to use it for myself. I so I put it out

不，完全不是有预谋。所以，我们，我把它做出来只是为了自己用。我就，我就把它发布出去了

24:29

MIT license

24:31

Um, I would probably make that decision again if I if I came to it but

嗯，如果再让我遇到一次，我可能还会做那个决定，但

24:37

I didn't even think about it because this was just it wasn't even the thing I had spent two days building it

我根本没想过这个，因为这甚至不是什么大事——我花两天就把它做出来了

24:42

I was like this is there's nothing special here like if I spent two days anybody else could

我当时就想，这没什么特别的，就像如果我只花两天就能做出来，那别人也能

24:47

so I just put it out um and thought

所以我就把它发布出去了，嗯，然后就想着

24:51

people find maybe people will find it useful um and maybe they'll contribute to it and then

人们发现，也许人们会觉得它有用，嗯，也许他们会给它做贡献，然后

24:56

it will make it better and I could use it for our own business

它会让它变得更好，而且我可以把它用在我们自己的业务上

24:59

um get it more more robust more stable um and I thought

嗯，让它更、更 robust、更 stable，嗯，然后我想

25:04

It would be good for our reputation as an AI native agency to be you know to have created a successful

作为一个 AI native agency，你知道，能做出一个成功的

25:10

AI agent project. So that was my thinking but it was totally just going to be this side project

AI agent project。所以那就是我的想法，但它本来完全就只是一个 side project

25:15

I put it out on my personal github user and only moved it to our companies github after

我把它发布在我个人的 github 账号上，后来才把它移到我们公司的 github 上，那是在

25:21

It took off. This was

它火了之后。这本来是

25:23

Just a weekend project

只是一个周末项目

25:27

So you shut down the agency pretty abruptly though right uh nano co you and your co-founder

所以你把那个 agency 关得挺突然的，对吧，呃，nano co，你和你的联合创始人

25:35

Did you

是你吗？

25:37

I guess

我猜吧

25:38

There's a lot of context I need to build up to to ask this question promptly

要马上问这个问题，我得先铺垫很多背景

25:44

There's a concern I suppose released

我猜有一个担忧被公开了

25:46

I know I had the concern and I hear other people having similar concerns around open source

我知道我有这个担忧，我也听到其他人对 open source 有类似的担忧

25:51

And then you mentioned you open source right away as MIT which is the most liberal

然后你提到你立刻就以 MIT 协议 open source 了，而 MIT 是最宽松的

25:57

open source license like you would actually say that is truly

open source license，就像你真的会说，那确实是

26:00

In the spirit of open source that is open source just having the code open

本着 open source 的精神，也就是说 open source 光是让代码公开

26:04

visible is not obviously open source is about a license

代码可见，并不显然就是 open source，它关乎的是 license

26:07

A license that gives you permission

一个给你授权的 license

26:09

Unfettered permission to do what you want

不受限制的许可，让你做你想做的事

26:11

And so here's you you you got this you know Friday the Sunday

所以，这里就是你，你，你搞定了这个，你知道，周五，周日

26:16

40-hour marathon you released it on Monday because you're concerned about

40 小时马拉松，你周一才发布，因为你担心

26:21

How you would actually do your job

你到底要怎么真正做好你的工作

26:23

Might as your Friday which I totally empathize with

可能算是你的周五，这点我完全能感同身受

26:25

Because it's so tantalizing when you can just do so much and your ideas just come to life in front of you

因为当你能做这么多，而且你的想法就在你眼前活过来的时候，那真的太诱人了

26:30

It's kind of wild

这有点疯狂

26:33

You said you would consider or do that again with the MIT license

你说过你会考虑或者用 MIT license 再做一次那件事

26:37

how

怎么做

26:39

How do you how do you think about or reason about open source in this world now where

现在这个世界里，你会怎么——你会怎么思考或者推理 open source，当

26:46

Even if you'd written let's just say I you'd written it something in TypeScript and I want a bar on ID and I I have a go program

即使你写了，比如说，你用 TypeScript 写了某个东西，然后我想要一个 bar on ID，而且我我有个 go program

26:54

uh

呃

26:55

I can easily look at

我可以很容易地看

26:57

Given with agency's days just look at what you're doing and and and and graft intent off of that not so much

考虑到现在这个 agency 时代，就看看你在做什么，然后然后然后然后从那儿嫁接意图，倒也不是那么回事

27:04

Take your code or take something like that that would have normally been

拿你的代码，或者拿类似这样的东西，它本来通常会是

27:09

Licensed intellectual property et cetera even if it's open source it's still

licensed intellectual property 等等，即使它是 open source，它仍然是

27:14

Some version of an IP even if it's permissively open IP. It's still IP

某种形式的 IP，即使它是 permissively open IP。它仍然是 IP

27:19

How do you feel about that decision to go the MIT route? How do you feel about the state of open source

你怎么看选择走 MIT 这条路这个决定？你怎么看 open source 的现状

27:26

and is your position currently

而且你目前的处境

27:28

In any way hindered and maybe you can't even say yes or no to this because you're already on this road man

是否在任何方面受到阻碍，也许你甚至没法对这件事说是或不是，因为你已经在这条路上了，兄弟

27:33

You can't you can't put the cat back in the and the bags of the speed because you've already open source and MIT licensed

你不能，你不能把猫再放回袋子里，可以这么说，因为你已经 open source 并且 MIT licensed 了

27:39

Nana claw how does that sit with you when it comes to

Nana claw，当谈到……时，你怎么看

27:43

You building a business around a

你围绕一个

27:46

A code repository that's fully open

完全开放的 code repository 来做生意

27:49

With fully permissive to any any degree how do you feel about that?

而且 fully permissive 到任何任何程度，你对此感觉如何？

27:53

Yeah, it gets right to the heart of uh, I think the difficult thing big that's going on

对，这正好触及了核心，呃，我觉得这就是眼下正在发生的那个大难题

27:57

Yeah, yeah, I think it's not a difficulty for us surprisingly

对，对，我觉得对我们来说，出乎意料地这并不算难题

28:01

And it I'll explain why but but it's clear that open source

而且这一点我会解释为什么，但，但很明显，open source

28:07

I don't I've heard people saying open source is dead

我不——我听过有人说 open source 已经死了

28:10

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I think though it needs to

我未必会同意那个观点。不过我觉得它确实需要

28:14

evolve

进化

28:15

you know kind of

你知道，有点像是

28:17

Metamorphosize into something else

蜕变转化成了另一种东西

28:20

I don't think open source the way we knew it before

我不觉得我们以前所熟知的那种open source

28:25

Works anymore is going to continue

还行得通，会继续下去

28:26

But I think there is a new way of doing open source new model for it

但我觉得存在一种做open source的新方式、新模型

28:32

I

我

28:34

Yeah, the the project

对，那个，那个项目

28:37

I put it out there and people started to use it and teams started to use it

我把它发布出去之后，人们开始用起来，团队也开始用起来

28:44

And companies started to use it so there are companies that I know of and I've been in contact with

然后公司也开始用了，所以有些我认识、也一直有联系的公司

28:48

That are building their own internal agent platforms on on nano-claw and using it as infrastructure

在，在 nano-claw 上搭建他们自己的内部 agent 平台，把它当作 infrastructure 来用

28:55

Their teams building on it their

他们的团队在上面开发，他们的

28:58

companies

公司

28:59

who are building

正在构建

29:01

products on top of it and

基于它的产品，还有

29:03

And and providing services with it and all of that is fully allowed with the MIT license and I actually am happy about it and and endorse it all

而且，而且用它来提供服务，这些在 MIT license 下都是完全允许的，我其实挺高兴的，而且，而且完全支持这一切

29:12

And I saw even within a few weeks of launching it there were these sites popping up like

而且我看到，甚至在上线几周内，就有这些网站冒出来，比如

29:18

Host your own nano-claw and providing hosted nano-close

Host 你自己的 nano-claw，还提供 hosted nano-close

29:22

And I'm fine with that. We're not we're not going after that kind of business

而且我觉得没问题。我们不是，我们不是要去做那类业务

29:27

um

嗯

29:29

I think even if you chose a different license today you chose choose the most restrictive license

我觉得就算你今天选一个不同的 license，你也会选，选最严格的那个 license

29:34

Once the code is open source like you said you could just tell it to rewrite it in a different language

一旦代码 open source 了，就像你说的，你大可以让它 rewrite 成另一种语言

29:39

And people did that with the I think it was cloud code

而且人们已经拿那个，我想是 cloud code，这么做了

29:43

source code that leaked

泄露的 source code

29:45

allegedly or

据称，或者

29:47

That's what what people were saying anyways that it was cloud code source code so it leaks and

反正大家就是这么说的，说那是 cloud code 的 source code，所以它泄露了，然后

29:53

people posted it on github and then they're all these takedown requests so then people had

人们把它发到了 github 上，然后就全是这些 takedown requests，于是人们就让

29:59

AI coding agents just rewrite the entire thing in python in rust in you know

AI coding agents 直接把整个东西重写，用 python、用 rust、用你知道的

30:06

12 other languages and that actually

另外 12 种语言，而实际上

30:10

Once you rewrite it in another language the original license doesn't apply anymore

一旦你用另一种语言重写它，原来的 license 就不再适用了

30:15

So you can look at a project and rewrite it and that's fully allowed by by licensing so

所以你可以看一个项目，然后重写它，这在 licensing 上完全是允许的，所以

30:21

I think it doesn't really help you to have open source that's restrictive license

我觉得 open source 如果搞 restrictive license，其实对你真没啥帮助

30:26

So you might as well just go all the way with MIT license and get maximum

那你还不如干脆一路用 MIT license，拿到最大的

30:31

Reach

reach

30:32

I don't think the model of building an open source project and then trying trying to

我不觉得先做一个 open source 项目、然后再试着、试着去

30:38

monetize your own user base

monetize 自己的 user base 这种模式

30:41

Works because it's so easy to host stuff. It's so easy to fork it

行得通，因为 host 东西太容易了。fork 也太容易了

30:47

I think the new model is the open source project is just about

我觉得新的模式是，open source 项目就只是为了

30:53

building up a brand

打造品牌

30:55

Getting a community getting distribution

先建立一个 community，再拿到 distribution

30:58

So that's the way we're looking at it for

所以这就是我们看待这件事的方式

31:01

For nanoclaw so you've got people building a nanoclaw

所以对 nanoclaw 来说，会有人去 build 一个 nanoclaw

31:04

Individuals businesses that's all great only one percent probably much less probably a tenth of it

个人、企业，这些都很好，但只有 1% 的公司，可能少得多，可能是其中的十分之一

31:10

Of companies are going to build their own

会搭建自己的

31:13

internal agent platform

31:15

On top of an open source project like even if they have the

基于一个 open source project，即便他们公司里有

31:19

Engineers in the company who could in theory do it

理论上能做这件事的工程师

31:23

They don't want to take their best four engineers and put them on building an agent platform for marketing and for sales

他们不想把自己最好的四个工程师拿去搭建一个面向 marketing 和 sales 的 agent platform

31:29

They want their best four engineers building their own product their core product

他们希望自己最好的四个工程师去打造他们自己的产品，他们的核心产品

31:32

And we've had those conversations with with companies and you know, they're very clear about that. So

我们和很多公司聊过这些，你知道，他们对此非常明确。所以

31:38

What we're focused on is

我们专注的是

31:41

providing

提供

31:43

Exactly that in agents

正好就是这样的 agents

31:47

Built on top of the nanoclaw open source project but with a lot more going on on top of that for

搭建在 nanoclaw 开源项目之上，但在那之上还有更多东西

31:54

The 99 plus percent of companies that are not going to build their own internal agent platform

面向的是那 99% 以上不会去搭建自己内部 agent platform 的公司

31:58

So you need you can't just put agents in the sandbox and connect it to messaging app

所以你不能只是把 agents 放进 sandbox 然后连到一个 messaging app

32:04

Even if it's really good sandbox and great orchestration and great project

即使 sandbox 很好、orchestration 很棒、project 也很好

32:08

And roll it out in enterprise in a fortune 500 company

然后在一个 fortune 500 公司的 enterprise 里铺开

32:12

You need to be connected to identity you need governance you need audit you need

你需要连接到 identity，你需要 governance，你需要 audit，你需要

32:18

To be deployed into the customers into the companies on cloud environment

部署到客户那里，部署到公司的 cloud 环境里

32:23

with

带着

32:25

Retention policies on logs and a whole host of other things

日志的 retention policies 以及一大堆其他东西

32:29

So that's what we're doing we're providing for them together with services actually going back to where we started of AI native

所以这就是我们在做的，我们在为他们提供这些，同时还有服务，其实回到了我们最开始说的 AI native

32:36

Services business so providing the services of figuring out what they need what are the agents need to look like what should the policies be

服务业务嘛，就是提供服务，帮他们搞清楚自己需要什么，agents 该是什么样，policies 又该是什么

32:42

Around what they can and can't do and helping the company guiding them through the process of rolling out agents that are really powerful

围绕它们能做什么、不能做什么，帮公司、指导他们走完整个流程，把真正强大的 agents 推出来

32:49

Connect to everything like we know

能连接所有东西，就像我们知道的那样

32:52

About open-claw but

关于 open-claw，但

32:54

controlled safe secure and doing it in responsible way I like your view

受控、安全、有保障，而且以负责任的方式来做。我喜欢你的观点

33:03

On open source

关于 open source

33:06

It's intriguing at least I want to hear more and so if I understand correctly

这挺有意思的，至少我想多听听，所以如果我理解得没错

33:10

Your position is that open source is obviously changed

你的立场是，open source 显然已经变了

33:15

Even at the license is not permissive the fact that it's there might as well be permissive because anybody who has

就算 license 不是 permissive，它摆在那儿这件事也差不多等于 permissive，因为任何人只要有

33:23

Any sort of ill-feeling whether it's like towards you personally towards the project or just like you know what

任何不满情绪，不管是对你个人、对这个项目，还是就是那种——你懂的

33:29

I'm going to take what's here and just kind of run with it and build my own

我就要把这里的东西拿走，然后就顺着它做下去，搞我自己的

33:32

That was never really a customer potentially anyways or I never really thought about it like that like it used to be

反正那人本来也未必真的算个客户，或者说我从来没像以前那样想过这件事

33:38

Open source used to be about sharing an idea getting people together around it

open source 以前是关于分享一个想法，把人们聚拢到它周围

33:42

And I suppose that's still the same if your

而且我想，如果你的

33:45

View on open source is true

对 open source 的看法是成立的，那也还是一样的

33:48

Which is it's about building a brand about building community

也就是，它关乎打造一个品牌，打造一个社区

33:53

And then but then how do you then say to that community

然后，但然后你又该怎么跟那个社区说呢

33:58

Well, I've been giving you this offer for free. I and any other contributors whether it's with skills

Well，其实我一直免费给你们提供这个 offer。我和其他任何贡献者，不管是通过 skills

34:03

We could talk about it later or actual code. I ask cool to contribute via skills

我们可以晚点再聊，或者聊实际的 code。我问 cool 能不能通过 skills 来贡献

34:08

um

嗯

34:10

You were contributing you were using for free

你当时在做贡献，你当时是免费用

34:12

uh

呃

34:14

And now here's a paid product that I want to sell you or I think gives you value so therefore

那现在有个付费产品，我想卖给你，或者我觉得它能给你带来价值，所以

34:20

Because you accept the value maybe you'll also accept giving me the exchange of value which is monetary value

因为你接受了这个价值，也许你也会接受给我相应的价值交换，也就是金钱价值

34:26

Which that's how commerce where that's how capitalism works if you didn't know that I'm pretty I'm sure you do

那这就是商业的运作方式，也就是资本主义的运作方式，如果你之前不知道的话——我猜——我敢肯定你是知道的

34:31

um

呃

34:33

That's

那

34:35

Not

并不是

34:36

drastically different than the original basis that I've been kind of operating on a roundup in source

跟我一直以来有点像在 source 里做 roundup 所依据的那个原始基础有天壤之别

34:41

But it's uniquely different because it seems like you just have no fear on

但它又独特地不同，因为看起来你就是完全不害怕

34:47

The exposure of let's just say your crown jewels nanoclaugh right you gave away the most important

去暴露，咱们这么说吧，你的命根子 nanoclaugh，对吧，你把最重要的

34:54

The most important I'm air quoting by the way the most important asset

最重要的——顺便说一句，我在打引号——最重要的资产

34:58

How do you then take that and commercialize that in a way that

那你怎么把那个东西拿去商业化，用一种

35:03

Doesn't hinder you I guess maybe haven't gotten there yet or maybe you have doesn't seem so from the outside

不会妨碍你的方式？我猜，也许你还没到那一步，或者也许你已经到了，但从外面看不太像

35:08

But how do you how do you reconcile

但你怎么，你怎么协调

35:13

MIT open source build a community build a brand and then find a way to

MIT open source、建社区、建品牌，然后找到一种办法

35:17

commercialize on top of that without

在这个基础上做商业化，同时又不让

35:21

Your crown jewel MIT licensed project

你那个皇冠明珠般的 MIT licensed 项目

35:25

Sucking the life out of you in the process

在这个过程中把你榨干

35:28

We we have so we're commercializing we have we have customers we have paying customers and um

我们，我们有，所以我们在商业化，我们有，我们有客户，我们有付费客户，而且嗯

35:34

I don't know if the same will hold true for every project. I think

我不知道这对每个项目是不是都成立。我觉得

35:40

A claw type of project personal agent. It's a unique it's a bit of a unique thing

一个 claw 类型的项目，个人 agent。它很独特，算是有点独特的东西

35:45

It's not a

它不是

35:47

Developer tool right which most open source projects are it's mostly tools for developers platforms for developers infrastructure for developers

开发者工具，对吧，大多数开源项目都是这样，它们大多是给开发者的工具、给开发者的平台、给开发者的基础设施

35:56

This is something that anybody can use and you don't use it for building software. You use it for for your personal stuff

这是任何人都能用的东西，而且你不是用它来构建软件。你是用它来处理自己的个人事务

36:06

and

而且

36:08

So we've got this big user base

所以我们有了这么大的用户群

36:09

We've got tens of thousands of people that have set up their own personal assistant their second brain

我们有成千上万的人已经搭建了自己的 personal assistant、自己的 second brain

36:14

The minister of foreign affairs of Singapore has been very public about being a user of nano claw

Singapore 的外交部长一直非常公开地表示自己是 nano claw 的用户

36:20

He's described his whole setup and published about it and many executives at large corporations our companies are our users

他描述了自己的整套 setup，还公开发布了，而且很多大公司的高管，我们的公司都是我们的用户

36:28

And are posting about it on LinkedIn and posting about it on x

并且还在 LinkedIn 上发帖讲它，在 x 上也发帖讲它

36:31

And then what's happening is those users

然后现在发生的情况是，那些用户

36:35

Um, they're seeing a lot of value like other people have seen from open claw

嗯，他们看到了很多价值，就像其他人从 open claw 上看到的那样

36:40

But for them being a bit more

但对他们来说，因为稍微更

36:42

You know security conscious or wary they decided to go with

你知道，注重安全或者警惕，他们决定用

36:46

Nano claw they see the value and they're saying I want to give this to every person on my team every person in my organization

Nano claw，他们看到了价值，然后他们说，我想把这个给团队里的每个人，给我组织里的每个人

36:53

So they get the same 2 x 3 x boost in productivity that I saw actually outside of work mostly in my in my personal life because they weren't able to bring it into work

所以他们得到了同样的 2x、3x 生产力提升，这其实是我在工作之外、主要是在我个人的生活里看到的，因为他们没法把它带进工作里

37:03

Um, they didn't have the you know all the compliance stuff and and and other things

嗯，他们没有那些，你知道，所有 compliance 相关的东西，还有还有还有别的

37:08

They needed to be able to bring it into the company

他们需要能把它带进公司里

37:10

But they set it up on their personal email they see the unlock they want to bring it into the business

但他们在自己的个人邮箱上把它设置好了，看到了这个 unlock，就想把它带进业务里

37:14

And then they started to reach out to us saying hey, how can I roll this out of my company?

然后他们开始联系我们，说，嘿，我该怎么把这个在我们公司里 roll out？

37:19

Um, and the same thing was happening with individuals on a team

嗯，同样的事情也发生在团队里的个人身上

37:23

Um, smaller teams who were able to set it up within their own team

嗯，还有更小的团队，他们能在自己的团队里把它设置起来

37:28

um

嗯

37:29

This one guy he's you know, he's an investor and a VC firm. He set it up for himself

有一个人，你知道，他是个投资人，在一家 VC firm。他给自己搭了一套

37:35

He's using it

他在用

37:36

And then other people at the firm are coming to him and saying hey, can you set me up with an agent as well

然后公司里其他人就来找他，说，嘿，你能不能也帮我搭一个 agent

37:41

And he approached us and said hey, I don't want to be the IT guy from my company now who's helping everybody set up their agents

然后他来找我们，说，嘿，我现在不想当公司里的 IT guy，帮所有人搭他们的 agent

37:48

I want you guys to do that

我想让你们来做这个

37:50

so um, so

所以，呃，所以

37:52

the

那个

37:53

The open source project the open source user based and community becomes a pipeline for deal flow

这个 open source 项目，这个 open source 的 user based 和 community，就变成了 deal flow 的 pipeline

38:00

But it's not us sort of cannibalizing or monetizing or extracting value from those same people who are using it

但这不是说，我们在反过来蚕食、变现，或者从那些正在使用它的人身上榨取价值

38:09

If you're using the open source project, I'm not trying to turn that into a paying customer

如果你在用这个 open source 项目，我不是想把你变成付费客户

38:14

It's if you're if you've seen it you've seen the value you love it you like it now you want help

而是说，如果你看到了它、看到了它的价值，你喜欢它、你爱它，现在你想要帮助

38:20

Bringing it into your business or your company and you don't want to do that yourself

想把它带进你的业务或公司，而你又不想自己来做这件事

38:23

If you're using it as an individual user and you want to be the IT guy for the company who builds everyone's agents

如果你是作为个人用户在用，而你想成为公司里那个给大家搭 agents 的 IT guy

38:30

Go do that as well. I don't want to monetize that either

那就去做吧。这个我也不想变现

38:33

I think at some point we may start to feel a pull from companies saying hey, we built our own internal agent platform

我觉得到某个时候，我们可能会开始感受到来自公司的拉力，他们会说，嘿，我们自己搭了内部的 agent platform

38:38

And we want you know some form of support or some form of this or that

而且我们想要，你懂的，某种形式的支持，或者某种这个那个

38:43

But for right now, I think the biggest opportunity for us is actually the 99% of the world that is not gonna use the open source

但就目前来说，我觉得我们最大的机会，其实是世界上那 99% 不会用 open source 的人

38:54

Interesting so

有意思，所以

38:56

Is that the kind of business? So while I recognize the commercial opportunity here

那是你想做的那种生意吗？所以，虽然我看到了这里的商业机会

39:01

And maybe that's just the surface that we're scratching and that's what you can share here now

也许那只是我们正在触及的表面，而这就是你现在能在这里分享的

39:05

um

嗯

39:06

Is that the business you want to run because I mean to start out you began as an engineer

那是你想经营的那种生意吗？因为我的意思是，你一开始是从工程师做起的

39:13

Building software

做软件

39:14

Kind of ejected from that did something different for a bit came back to it. I'm paraphrasing a lot of your story

某种程度上从那里抽身出来，做了一阵子别的事，然后又回来了。我这是在大概转述你的经历

39:19

So fill in the blanks and then one of your angst was managing people and not

所以先把空填上，然后你当时的一个焦虑点就是管人，而不是

39:26

Architecting software. It seemed like that was if I'm rocking your story

architecting software。如果我没理解错你的故事，那似乎就是

39:29

That's what your angst was and now here you are running nanoco

那就是你当时的焦虑所在，而现在你在经营 nanoco

39:33

Which largely seems support-esque like let me help you set up the thing I made

它很大程度上看起来偏 support，就像：让我帮你把我做的东西搭起来

39:38

Inside your company and maybe that is architecting help me understand

放到你的公司里。也许那也算 architecting？帮我理解一下

39:42

What's interesting about the potential future you can forge and

你能打造出的那个潜在未来，有意思的地方到底在哪，以及

39:47

And clear out with with nanoco is it just support what are the bigger opportunities here

以及用 nanoco 能开辟出什么？它只是 support 吗？这里更大的机会是什么？

39:53

It goes beyond support and it goes beyond the services around the setup each

它不只是 support，也不只是围绕 setup 的服务，每一个

39:58

When you look at a large enterprise fortune 500 company so they need to

当你看到一家大型 enterprise、fortune 500 公司时，他们就需要

40:04

Connect to their identity provider so they can define rules and policies

连接到他们的 identity provider，这样才能定义 rules 和 policies

40:09

Not only for users but for groups

不只是针对 users，还要针对 groups

40:12

And those need to match up with the groups to have set up in their their IDP. They need to be able to set

而且这些还得跟他们在自己的 IDP 里设好的 groups 对得上。他们得能设置

40:18

Policies so they can't just

policies，这样他们就不能只是

40:20

Set it let each individual user decide what their agent can do and can't do they want to set it up

让每个单独的 user 自己决定他们的 agent 能做什么、不能做什么，他们想把它设置成

40:26

In a controlled way across the organization access control policies of what each agent can do

一种在整个组织里受控的方式，也就是针对每个 agent 能做什么的 access control policies

40:32

So for example, we're gonna let everybody in the company connect their emails

所以比如说，我们会让公司里的每个人都能连接他们的邮箱

40:36

We're gonna let there everybody's agents if people want read their emails search through their emails

我们会让每个人的 agents，如果人们想读自己的邮件、搜自己的邮件的话

40:42

But if the agents want to

但如果这些 agents 想

40:45

Send an email across the whole company that requires human and the loop approvals right and then

给全公司发邮件，那就需要 human in the loop 审批，对吧，然后

40:51

We set a policy and organization agents can't delete emails

我们设了一个 policy，组织里的 agents 不能删邮件

40:56

You know you want the you want to keep keep the information you don't want to delete so

你知道，你想保留、想保留这些信息，你不想删掉，所以

41:03

That's something that you can't do just having the open source project and deploying it for individual users

这不是你光有个 open source project、给个人用户部署一下就能做到的事

41:10

There's another level on top of that which is really about governance

在那之上还有另一个层面，其实真正关乎 governance

41:13

um

嗯

41:14

and

然后

41:16

Beyond that there's um the process of rolling out agents for organization

除此之外，呃，还有给组织铺开 agents 的过程

41:21

You need to have templates for what kind of agents are going to have marketing agents sales agents

你需要有 templates，来说明会有什么样的 agents——marketing agents、sales agents

41:26

Engineering agents. They need to have instruction skills

Engineering agents。它们需要有 instruction skills

41:30

Policies tools are connected to

Policies、tools 都连接到

41:33

Recurring jobs you want to give people an agent that's valuable on day one

Recurring jobs，你想给人们一个第一天就有价值的 agent

41:37

and

然后

41:39

So there's there is software there. There's a platform

所以那里有 software。有一个 platform

41:42

And then there's the services around getting it set up and around managing and maintaining it in the long term

然后还有围绕把它搭建起来、以及长期管理和维护它的那些服务

41:49

but with

但有了

41:51

Coding agents there's a new opportunity here

Coding agents，这里就有了一个新机会

41:54

Because things that used to be really intensive labor intensive and require a lot of

因为过去那些非常劳动密集型、需要大量

42:00

Human hours of work can now be done by agents and be be automated

人力工时的工作，现在可以由 agents 来完成，并且可以被自动化

42:05

So a lot of those services for example when we're rolling this out to a company

所以这些服务中的很多，比如当我们把这件事推广到一家公司时

42:09

We're going to roll it out to say start with a small group of 200 people in the company

我们会把它推广开来，比如说先在公司里一个 200 人的小群体中开始

42:14

We want to gather information for them about what are their workflows look like?

我们想为他们收集信息，了解他们的 workflows 是什么样的？

42:18

What tools do they use? How do they use those tools so that we can set up the templates set up the policies

他们用哪些工具？他们怎么用这些工具，这样我们才能把 templates 建起来、把 policies 定下来

42:23

We need to gather a lot of information

我们需要收集大量信息

42:25

So rather than you know doing human interviews with people or sending them forms to fill out that they're never going to fill out

所以与其，你知道，去跟人做人工访谈，或者发一些他们永远不会填的表单让他们填

42:32

We have we put the model in a big group in a big slack channel

我们就把 model 放进一个大群里，一个大的 Slack channel 里

42:36

And then each person gets a DM from an agent our interview agent

然后每个人都会收到一个 agent 发来的 DM，也就是我们的 interview agent

42:41

And it starts asking them some questions about what AI tools do you use?

然后它开始问他们一些问题，比如你都在用哪些 AI tools？

42:45

How are you using them

你是怎么用它们的

42:47

And it gathers some information from them

然后它会从他们那里收集一些信息

42:50

And then based on that information we're able to come back to executives to leadership in the company and say here this

然后基于这些信息，我们就能回去跟公司的高管和领导层说，你看，这是

42:56

Templates of agents that we think you should have and here is a reasonable starting point for your policies

我们认为你们应该有的 agents 模板，还有你们 policies 的一个合理起点

43:02

Here the tools we think you should connect them to and you shouldn't connect them to

这是我们认为你们应该让它们连接到的工具，以及不应该让它们连接到的工具

43:05

And some more workflows will build and then

还有一些我们会构建的 workflows，然后

43:09

I think fundamentally what we're building is not

我觉得从根本上说，我们正在构建的并不是

43:13

What we're doing is not

我们正在做的并不是

43:15

Providing a service for a company to deploy their

为公司提供服务，让他们部署他们的

43:18

Their agents within the company and then maintain them over time

他们的 agents 在公司内部，然后长期维护它们

43:22

Well, we're building is a factory an agent factory

嗯，我们在建的是一个工厂，一个 agent 工厂

43:26

And the output of that factory is custom deployments for large enterprises

而那个工厂的产出，是为大型企业提供的 custom deployments

43:32

But those change the calculus quite a bit

但这些会大大改变整个判断逻辑

43:35

I mean when you were saying about interviewing people and getting into the details

我是说，你刚才说采访人、深入到细节里的时候

43:39

Those things and like gosh you must be spending a lot of time on site

那些事情，而且天哪，你肯定得花很多时间在现场

43:42

Talking to Sally or talking to Bob about their red stapler

跟 Sally 聊，或者跟 Bob 聊他们的红色订书机

43:49

And then here you just go and change it and flip the script and say let's just put them on a slack channel

然后到这里，你就直接把它改了，反转思路，说干脆把他们放到一个 slack channel 里

43:53

Have the agent DM each person who matters and interview them that's

让 agent 给每个重要的人发 DM，并采访他们，这就是

43:58

That's a different thing

那是另一回事

44:00

Tell me about this agent factor what is what are your big ideas here for agent factories what is the

跟我说说这个 agent factor，它是什么，你对 agent factories 这边的大想法是什么，这个……

44:05

What is the status quo currently and what is the future work driving towards

目前的现状是什么，未来的工作又在朝着什么方向推进？

44:09

I think it comes back a little bit to the skills thing of of contribution and

我觉得这又有点回到 skills 那件事上，就是贡献，还有……

44:15

And what you know that really defines what our agent factory looks like so

然后，你知道，真正定义了我们 agent factory 是什么样子的东西，所以……

44:21

When I sat down to build nanoclaw I was

当我坐下来构建 nanoclaw 的时候，我……

44:25

I was really

我当时真的……

44:27

I'd gone down this rabbit hole of AI native and like AI changes everything AI changes how software is built and written

我陷进了 AI native 这个兔子洞里，就像 AI 改变一切，AI 改变了 software 是如何被构建和编写的

44:34

And a lot of the old rules maybe don't apply and we got to rethink everything

而且很多老规则可能都不适用了，我们得把所有东西都重新想一遍

44:38

So I sat down to build it and I thought I'm gonna build this as an AI native

所以我坐下来开始搭建它，我想，我要把它做成一个 AI native

44:43

Open source project or AI native software

开源项目，或者 AI native 软件

44:46

So part of that was initially when you want to set up nanoclaw there was no wizard there was no installer there wasn't any

所以其中一部分就是，一开始当你想设置 nanoclaw 的时候，没有向导，没有安装程序，也没有任何

44:53

Documentation even for humans have had to set it up

文档，甚至连人类都得自己把它设置起来

44:55

There was just a skill slash setup and you run

只有一个 skill slash setup，然后你运行

44:59

Claude in the project directory. So clone the project

Claude 在项目目录里。所以 clone 这个项目

45:02

run Claude and directory and

在目录里运行 Claude，然后

45:05

Do slash setup and then Claude sets it up for you and if you wanted to I I shipped it initially just with what's up

先执行 slash setup，然后 Claude 会帮你设置好；如果你想要的话，我一开始发布的时候就只带了 what's up

45:12

And in the read me it said hey, I shipped it with what's up because I'm using what's up and this is my agent

然后在 read me 里写着，嘿，我发布的时候带的是 what's up，因为我在用 what's up，而这是我的 agent

45:18

But you're welcome to use it and if you use a different messaging app

但欢迎你拿去用，如果你用的是别的 messaging app

45:22

Then just run Claude and tell Claude to change what's up for another messaging app like that's the way to customize

那就直接运行 Claude，然后让 Claude 把 what's up 换成另一个 messaging app，定制方式就是这样

45:28

And I said don't open PRs for adding slack and adding discord

我还说过，不要为了加 slack 和加 discord 而开 PR

45:32

I don't want to have all this bloat in my project

我不想让我的项目里塞进这么多 bloat

45:34

um

嗯

45:35

But if you figured out how to make it work for yourself with slack your your coding agent is figured that out for you instead of everybody figuring it out from scratch

但如果你自己搞明白了怎么让它在 slack 上跑起来，你的 coding agent 已经替你搞定了，而不是让每个人都从零开始摸索

45:44

Asked your agent to kind of put together the steps that it did to get slack working to rip out what's that put slack and instead

让你的 agent 大概把它为了让 Slack 跑起来所做的步骤整理出来，把 WhatsApp 拆掉，然后换成 Slack

45:51

Write those up and contribute those and just put it in the format of a skill because why not you can just run it

把这些写下来并贡献出来，就把它做成一个 skill 的格式，因为为什么不呢，你直接就能运行它

45:58

so contribute back the information

所以把信息贡献回去

46:01

That teaches a different coding agent how to follow that same process and how to customize this project

这会教另一个 coding agent 怎么遵循同样的流程，以及怎么定制这个项目

46:08

So that it supports now slack instead of what's up

这样它现在支持 Slack，而不是 WhatsApp

46:11

So rather I said rather than features

所以我就说，与其做 features

46:14

contribute skills

不如贡献 skills

46:16

And we'll be able to keep the codebase really small if it's small agents can work in it really well

而且我们就能把 codebase 保持得非常小；如果它很小，agents 在里面就能工作得非常好

46:21

They can one-shot things and then we'll be able to those support everything by having lots of skills

他们可以 one-shot 一些事情，然后我们就能通过拥有很多 skills 来支持一切

46:28

and

而且

46:30

That I think

我觉得

46:33

A lot of people you know

很多人，你知道

46:35

It caught a lot of people's attention because that's just something different um that

它引起了很多人的注意，因为那就是有点不一样，嗯，那

46:40

Is leveraging agents and the new capabilities that AI brings to just do things in a totally different way

是在利用 agents 和 AI 带来的新能力，以一种完全不同的方式去做事

46:51

Well friends, I'm back with a good friend of mine Michael Grinich

好了朋友们，我带着我的好朋友 Michael Grinich 回来了

46:54

Michael, I know that I love work OS our audience may not know about work OS

Michael，我知道我很喜欢 work OS，我们的听众可能不知道 work OS

46:58

But what are the challenges developers face starting a new project choosing the right tools choosing the right database

但开发者启动一个新项目时会面临哪些挑战，如何选择正确的 tools，如何选择正确的 database

47:03

Choosing the right off take me there when a developer starts a new project

选择正确的 off take me there，当一个开发者启动一个新项目时

47:07

The decisions that they make at the very beginning end up having long lasting consequences

他们在最开始做出的决定，最终会产生长期影响

47:13

What language you build in what platform you build on top of what database you choose these are things that are very hard to change later on

你用什么 language 来构建，在什么 platform 之上构建，选择什么 database，这些都是之后非常难改的事情

47:19

So they have like major consequences

所以它们会带来很大的后果

47:21

And especially if they limit your ability to grow and scale at some point as the product starts to take off

尤其是如果它们在某些时候限制了你增长和 scale 的能力，而当产品开始起飞时

47:27

You're going to have to stop developing new product features and go re-architect to rebuild your system

你就不得不停止开发新的产品功能，去 re-architect，重建你的系统

47:32

And that might be a killing blow right at the moment you need to accelerate

而这可能正好在你需要加速的时候，成为致命一击

47:37

So these decisions are really on are really really important

所以这些决定真的真的非常非常重要

47:39

And I think that's why developers gravitate towards solutions that are mature things that they know that will scale

我觉得这就是为什么开发者会倾向于那些成熟的、他们知道能 scale 的解决方案

47:45

Even things that are open source

即使是 open source 的东西

47:46

You're going to pick you know something like planet scale for your database provider

你会选，你知道，像 planet scale 这样的来当你的 database provider

47:50

Not because it's the cheapest or because it's the you know most fun to use

不是因为它最便宜，也不是因为，你知道，它用起来最好玩

47:54

But because you know it's going to be a durable provider that you can scale on for years

而是因为，你知道，它会是一个很耐用的 provider，你可以靠它 scale 很多年

47:58

And work OS is like that for auth

而 work OS 在 auth 方面就是这样

48:00

You know at the earliest earliest days if you look across all these different services

你知道，在最最早的时候，如果你看所有这些不同的 services

48:04

They kind of look very similar but at day 1,000 or day 2,000 or day 10,000

它们看起来挺像的，但到了第 1,000 天、第 2,000 天或者第 10,000 天

48:09

You're going to want to have made sure that you picked a platform that could scale with you

你到时候就会希望，自己当初确保选了一个能跟着你一起 scale 的 platform

48:12

And today work OS is powering auth and identity and security and permissions

而今天，WorkOS 正在支撑着 auth、identity、security 和 permissions

48:17

For all of these AI companies, literally the fastest growing companies in the world

对所有这些 AI 公司来说，真的就是世界上增长最快的那些公司

48:20

Like opening eye and entropic and cursor for complexity work OS is under the hood there

比如 OpenAI、Anthropic 和 Cursor，WorkOS 就在底层支撑着

48:25

So I think when people pick work OS early on

所以我觉得，当人们早期就选 WorkOS 的时候

48:27

Really what they're doing is trying to pick the defaults to allow them to grow in rapidly scale

其实他们做的就是选好那些 defaults，让自己能增长、快速 scale

48:32

And there's no platform other than us that's done that at that same level

而除了我们，没有哪个 platform 做到过同样这个级别

48:36

Well friends the next step is to go to work os.com

好吧朋友们，下一步就是去 work os.com

48:40

Sign up today, check it out, free for a million active users

今天注册，去看看，对一百万个 active users 免费

48:46

Try it today, there's no excuse not to it is your default

今天就试试，没有任何借口不去用它，它就是你的默认选择

48:49

You should choose it so do so work os.com once again work os.com

你应该选择它，所以就这么做，work os.com，再说一遍，work os.com

49:02

It's a different world when you think about even where you began there with like

当你想想，甚至想想你最开始是从哪里开始的时候，这已经是一个不同的世界了，就像

49:06

AI changes everything and I don't want to like just gloss over that phrase

AI 改变一切，我不想就这么把这句话一带而过

49:13

Because it really does change everything

因为它真的改变了一切

49:15

Whenever you think about just a flow of information

每当你想到的仅仅是信息的流动

49:19

Like even initially like you'd mentioned that you had

就像一开始，你提到过你让

49:23

Cloud set it up right slash set up for example

Cloud 把它设置好了，对吧/比如说设置好

49:26

Whereas in today's world the setup is largely human facing which I think is a

而在今天的世界里，这个 setup 很大程度上是面向人类的，我觉得这是一个

49:33

An interesting choice

一个挺有意思的选择

49:35

You know you run bash and then I believe it's like nanoclaw.sh if I recall correctly and in the process

你知道，你运行 bash，然后如果我记得没错的话，好像是 nanoclaw.sh，然后在这个过程中

49:42

To send up nanoclaw

来上传 nanoclaw

49:44

And that's very much a human facing choice process script

而这非常像是一个面向人类的选择流程 script

49:49

One, it's just a simple bash script quite beautiful. You got your

第一，它只是一个简单的 bash script，相当漂亮。你有你的

49:53

You're

你是

49:55

I guess it's a lobster is it a lobster with a claw? Is that what everybody's using? It's a lobster right?

我猜这是一只龙虾，是那种带钳子的龙虾吗？大家都在用这个吗？它是龙虾，对吧？

49:59

A little little blue lobster. Yeah, little blue lobster. A little cute little blue lobster. I like that lobster

一只小小的蓝色龙虾。对，小小的蓝色龙虾。一只可爱的小小蓝色龙虾。我喜欢那只龙虾

50:06

You know you got this splash. It's very that's not it. Let's what I'm trying to say is that flow is not human

你知道，你有了这个 splash。它很……不是那个。来，我想说的是，那个 flow 不是人类

50:11

Or sorry, it's totally human. It's not agent

哦抱歉，它完全是人类。它不是 agent

50:14

Although you can eject out of it into an agent into clawed helping you

虽然你可以从里面弹出去，进入一个 agent，进入 clawed 来帮你

50:19

Like in my case whenever I set it up

就像我的情况，每次我把它设置好的时候

50:21

It had an issue like one of the containers timed out and thankfully you know your script wasn't just like oh well

它出了个问题，像其中一个 containers timed out 了，幸好，你知道，你的 script 不是那种“哦，算了”的

50:28

It was more like

更像是

50:29

seems like something's wrong here

这里好像有点不对劲

50:32

Do you want to have clawed

你想让 Claude

50:34

Trubba shoot it for you and so I ejected out of the script into clawed

试着帮你 SSH 进去，然后我就从 script 里弹出来，进了 Claude

50:38

And it began to troubleshoot it you know looked at the logs and turned out I was on a headless Mac where I wasn't looking at the screen and

然后它就开始 troubleshoot，你知道，看了 logs，结果发现我在一台 headless Mac 上，而我根本没在看屏幕，而且

50:48

Docker wasn't installed yet

Docker 还没装

50:50

And so as I'm trying to figure out what's going on here then I'm like oh, let me actually

于是当我正试着弄清楚这里到底怎么回事时，我就想，哦，让我干脆

50:54

Remote desktop into this you know headless Mac mini

Remote desktop 连到这台，你知道，headless Mac mini 上

50:59

And take a peek what's going on here lone behold it's asking me to approve

看一眼这里发生了什么，结果你瞧，它居然要我去批准

51:04

Via the the gooey the graphical user interface to approve

通过那个，那个 gooey，也就是 graphical user interface，来批准

51:11

You know like

你知道，就像

51:12

Docker being installed or whatever was you know like I think the Mac OS was actually

Docker 正在安装还是什么的，你知道，就像我觉得 Mac OS 其实

51:17

Stopping the agent from installing Docker because it required a permission and so those are all normal things but

在阻止 agent 安装 Docker，因为它需要 permission，所以这些都是很正常的事，但是

51:23

That flow is largely human

那个流程大体上还是靠人

51:26

Uh, and it's even weird to even still say that. I mean, it's not quite

呃，而且到现在还这么说甚至有点怪。我是说，这并不完全

51:30

It's weird to see on the podcast suppose but it's not weird to think that it might like brain so my my own thoughts

在 podcast 上看到会觉得怪，我猜，但觉得它可能像大脑并不怪，所以我我自己的想法

51:36

But to say that this is a human flow not an agent flow because this is still sort of

但要说这是 human flow，不是 agent flow，因为这其实还有点算是

51:41

Getting into the world of agents like this becoming real like

进入 agent 的世界，就像这一切正在变成现实，就像

51:45

2026 is the year

2026 年就是那一年

51:48

I'd say like 25 began it and it was like right at the tail end

我会说，25 年算是开了个头，而且差不多正好就在尾巴末端

51:51

So I feel like 26 gets to own the year of agents. I could be wrong, but I don't think so

所以我觉得 26 年才能拥有 agents 之年。我可能错了，但我不这么觉得

51:57

Um, but you get in this position where you're like this is a human flow or this is an agent flow and you sort of think about

嗯，但你会处在这种位置，就是你会想，这是 human flow 还是 agent flow，然后你有点会去考虑

52:04

You know, AI native and and even how I would interface with a particular software

你知道，AI native，甚至是我会怎么跟某个 software 做 interface

52:08

That only has human focus flows that has no agent flows. I can't have my agents

那个只有 human focus flows，没有 agent flows。我没法让我的 agents 用上

52:14

Automated so much changes whenever you think about

自动化带来了这么多变化，每当你想一想

52:17

This idea that

这个想法，就是

52:19

You have AI native ways and that AI changes everything when you zoom out from that phrase AI changes

你有 AI native 的方式，而且 AI

52:27

everything how

一切，怎么样

52:28

how has

是怎么

52:30

Not just your software development life changed, but how has life

不只是你的 software development 生活变了，而是生活是怎么

52:34

changed

变了

52:35

For you in every way from

对你来说，在方方面面，从

52:38

How you interact with your wife and your family or whatever like how has

你和你妻子、家人的互动方式，或者随便什么，是怎么

52:42

AI changed everything for you

AI 为你改变了一切

52:47

So with the family

所以，就家庭来说

52:49

You know, we're keeping it pretty human

你知道，我们保持得挺有人味儿的

52:52

And I know people are using agents to help them manage things at home, but you know my daughter loves snanacles

而且我知道人们正在用 agents 帮自己打理家里的事，但你知道，我女儿特别喜欢 snanacles

52:58

She's four and she doesn't really know what it is

她四岁，其实并不真的知道那是什么

53:01

But I got lucky and I chose a cute little lobster as a logo

但我运气不错，选了一只可爱的小龙虾当 logo

53:04

So she knows the lobster. She loves it. You know natto claw

所以她认识那只小龙虾。她很喜欢它。你知道 natto claw

53:08

And you know when I can't when I'm home late and she's like why are you coming home late?

你知道，当我没办法的时候，当我回家晚了，她会说，你怎么回来这么晚？

53:12

Yeah, I was like because people want to talk what do they want to talk about natto claw

对，我就说，因为大家想聊啊，他们想聊什么？natto claw

53:17

So that's it's good. I'd recommend if you're going to start a company. Yeah, choose a cute logo so that your your child can

所以这挺好的。我会建议，如果你要开公司。对，选个可爱的 logo，这样你的，你的孩子就能

53:24

Can connect with it um

能跟它建立连接，嗯

53:26

but

但是

53:27

It's changed things really profoundly

它真的非常深刻地改变了事情

53:30

I think in in work for a lot of people in personal life from me more so in in professional life

我觉得，对很多人来说是在工作上，在个人生活里；对我来说，更多是在职业生活里

53:36

Um, I had you know a bunch of people join our team

嗯，你知道，我让一大帮人加入了我们的团队

53:39

So we're building on a team. We've got 15 people on the team now at nanoco

所以我们现在正在组建一个团队。我们在 nanoco 现在团队已经有 15 个人了

53:42

Nanoco is is our company that's providing

Nanoco 是我们的公司，它提供

53:46

nano claw type agents for for large large companies

nano claw 类型的 agents，给那些很大很大的公司

53:50

um

嗯

53:52

I have had a lot of people joining the team um

我这边有很多人陆续加入团队，嗯

53:57

Juggling a lot of different things so someone who's joining the team to pick up uh partnerships for us

要同时兼顾很多不同的事情，所以有个人加入团队来帮我们接洽，呃，合作伙伴关系

54:03

And I had been having calls for three months with all kinds of companies and people and I barely remembered any of it

而且过去三个月我一直在跟各种各样的公司和不同的人打电话，我几乎都没记住什么

54:09

It's all just this kind of haze

这一切都像是一团迷雾

54:12

um, so he came in and

嗯，所以他进来了，然后

54:15

Realistically, I'd need it to spend like two weeks sitting with him and getting him up to speed on everything and and

现实点说，我得花大概两周时间坐在他旁边，把所有事情都给他讲清楚，让他跟上进度，然后然后

54:21

And I'm boarding him and digging through

而且我还在带他上手，翻遍

54:24

call notes and emails to try to find all this information for him and instead I said look. I don't really have the time for this

通话记录和邮件，想帮他找出所有这些信息，结果我说，听着。我真没这个时间。

54:31

um

嗯

54:32

I sat with him for like 20 30 minutes to kind of get him up to speed and how I was thinking about stuff as best as I could

我跟他坐了大概20、30分钟，尽量让他跟上进度，也尽量把我对事情的思路讲清楚

54:38

And then I put him in a chat with one of my agents

然后我把他拉进了一个聊天，对方是我的一个 agent

54:42

So it's like my second brain that's connected to all the call notes emails everything

所以它就像我的 second brain，连着所有的通话记录、邮件，所有东西

54:48

Um, and I just said I actually the night before I

呃，而且我刚说，我其实前一天晚上我

54:52

Spent like 45 minutes with the agent saying like search for this email thread

花了大概45分钟跟这个 agent 说，就像，搜一下这个 email thread

54:56

Like just trying to remember what had happened and going through asking to go through my calendar and look for stuff

就像只是想记起当时发生了什么，然后一直问它，让它去翻我的日历、找东西

55:01

So I pointed it at a lot of the information that I knew was relevant

所以我把很多我知道相关的信息都指给它看

55:04

Which would have been maybe a bit difficult for him because he doesn't know what's there

这对他来说可能有点难，因为他不知道那里有什么

55:07

So I said okay look at the email threads and then I said this calendar event

所以我说，好吧，看看这些 email threads，然后我说，这个 calendar event

55:11

There's no email thread, but you'll find the you know slack the empty and this one there's a call and then

没有 email thread，但你会找到，你知道，Slack，那个空的，还有这个，有一个 call，然后

55:17

So it loaded up lots of information into its context

所以它把很多信息加载进了它的 context

55:21

And then I put him in the channel with it and I said hey Andy this is a soft he manages partnerships

然后我把他拉进它所在的 channel，我说，嘿 Andy，这是一个 soft，他负责合作关系

55:28

You know help him out and then he just started chatting with it and he's still chatting with it till now till um

你知道的，帮帮他，然后他就开始跟它聊起来了，而且到现在还在跟它聊，直到，嗯

55:34

Till

直到

55:35

Till recently, he's uh, you know, it's still one of the agents that he works with

直到最近，他，呃，你知道的，它仍然是他一起工作的 agents 之一

55:40

And he was able to get information about

而且他能够获取关于

55:44

Communications about calls about

沟通、关于通话、关于

55:47

meetings that I wouldn't even wouldn't have even been able to provide to him because this is just a blur of things that happened

会议的信息，那些我甚至根本没法提供给他的信息，因为发生的这些事情就是一团模糊

55:54

I barely remember it and he was able to get exact information with the notes with transcripts of some conversations

我几乎都不记得了，但他能够拿到准确的信息，有 notes，有一些对话的 transcripts

56:01

so that is

所以那就是

56:03

You know, and the same thing with our head of operations same thing with go to market

你知道，我们运营负责人也是一样，go to market 也是一样

56:07

so that's just a totally different process

所以那完全就是另一套流程

56:10

And work for a lot of people on our team has been primarily managing agents

而且我们团队里很多人的工作，主要就是管理 agents

56:16

It's it's definitely that for developers, but for non-developers as well for go-to-market partnerships operations

对开发者来说肯定是这样，但对非开发者，以及 go-to-market、partnerships、operations 来说也一样

56:26

People in the team managing community

团队里负责管理社区的人

56:29

It's it's just become a process of working with agents and I think that process is really powerful when you bring them in on day one

这已经变成了一种跟 agents 协作的流程，而且我觉得如果你第一天就把它们带进来，这个流程真的非常强大

56:37

And you say here's an agent and they're going to help you with the onboarding

然后你说，这是一个 agent，它会帮你完成 onboarding

56:41

People start to think about work and approaching things in a totally different way and I think there is that shift of

人们开始用完全不同的方式思考工作和处理事情，我觉得有一种转变就是

56:48

First thinking about how can my agent do this and then

首先想的是，我的 agent 怎么能做这件事，然后

56:52

First going to an agent and saying hey, can you do this for me?

先去找一个 agent，说嘿，你能帮我做这个吗？

56:55

And then if the agent can't do it stopping to think why can't it do it?

然后如果这个 agent 做不到，就停下来想，为什么它做不到？

56:58

Do I need to give it access to a new tool? Do I need to give it more information?

我需要给它一个新 tool 的使用权限吗？我需要给它更多信息吗？

57:02

Wow

哇

57:04

That's wild to hand

这交出去也太疯狂了

57:07

If I understand correctly you your agent's named Andy, is that right?

如果我理解得没错，你的 agent 叫 Andy，对吗？

57:13

That is all of my agents are named that. Yeah, it's like from the guy in the office

就是说，我所有的 agent 都叫那个名字。对，就是来自 The Office 里的那个人。

57:18

Andy from the office. That's amazing. I was thinking Andy from Toy Story, but okay, Andy from the office is fine too

The Office 里的 Andy。太棒了。我想到的是 Toy Story 里的 Andy，不过好吧，The Office 里的 Andy 也可以。

57:23

I like Andy

我喜欢 Andy

57:25

Andrew Bernard is the best

Andrew Bernard 最棒了

57:27

Um, so you're talking to Andy and you're like hey, I got an onboard somebody I talked I'm in paraphrase

嗯，所以你在跟 Andy 说话，你说，嘿，我要 onboard 一个人，我聊过，我是在转述

57:32

Would you to share back but you basically gave the agent the context

你想让它分享回来，但你基本上给了 agent 这个 context

57:38

Information and authority to go and research and find and discover and pull back a layer of information

信息和权限，去研究、寻找、发现，然后拉回来一层信息

57:45

And then you gave it access or you you allowed somebody else to talk to

然后你给了它 access，或者你，你让其他人来跟它说话

57:50

Andy on your behalf with that envelope right with that authorization envelope

Andy 代表你，拿着那个信封，对，就是那个授权信封

57:55

Was there parameters? How do you set those parameters? Is that what you did there where you sort of like

有 parameters 吗？那些 parameters 你是怎么设的？你在那儿是不是就这么做的，就是你有点像是

58:01

primed it so to speak and said hey Andy go talk to so and so

把它 primed 了，可以这么说，然后说，嘿 Andy，去跟某某聊聊

58:05

About this and then they can go and keep talking to them as if they're talking to any given chatbot

聊这件事，然后他们就可以继续跟对方聊，就像在跟随便哪个 chatbot 聊天一样

58:11

but the

但那个

58:13

The context or I guess the the knowledge base they're pulling from is

context，或者说我猜，那个，那个他们从中调取的 knowledge base 是

58:17

These email threads and the background story and the details that

这些 email threads、背景故事，还有那些细节，就是

58:21

You don't want to give them access to your inbox

你不想让他们访问你的 inbox

58:23

You want to give them access to the information in your inbox and so Andy did that is that right is that what happened here

你想让它们访问你收件箱里的信息，然后 Andy 就那么做了，对吧？事情就是这样发生的吗？

58:29

Yeah, yeah, that is so

对，对，就是这样。

58:32

It's I put the agent in a group where I was in the group and the person who joined the teams in the group

就是我把 agent 放进了一个群里，我也在那个群里，那个加入 Teams 的人也在那个群里。

58:40

And the agents in the group so all three of us. So it's a little group chat

然后 agent 也在群里，所以我们三个人。就是一个小小的群聊。

58:43

I'm not really engaging in this group but I am there and

我其实不怎么参与这个群，但我在里面，而且

58:47

Everyone's in while I take a quick look and jump in and correct things if they're not if they're not accurate

大家都在里面，我会快速看一眼，如果有什么不准确，就插进去纠正。

58:53

So for example

所以，比如说

58:55

In in the first day he was asking it about one of our partners

第一天的时候，他在问它关于我们一个合作伙伴的事。

59:00

And he asked different information and I shared with him like two recordings and I was like no there's like 12

然后他问了一些不同的信息，我就给他分享了大概两个录音，我就说不对，其实大概有 12 个

59:07

Start two transcripts or notes from calls and I was like no there were 12 different meetings with this company

一开始是两通电话的 transcript 或笔记，我就说不对，和这家公司有 12 个不同的会议

59:14

You got to go search via email

你得通过 email 去搜

59:17

Uh in my calendar to find all of them and if you're missing notes from any of them

呃，在我的日历里把它们全都找出来，如果你缺了其中任何一场的笔记

59:22

Let me know and I'll pull them up from somewhere to find them and um so that's

告诉我，我会从某个地方把它们调出来找到，嗯，所以那就是

59:30

We had a discussion internally about

我们内部讨论了一下，关于

59:33

About access control right data like who should access what and are we okay with

关于 access control，对吧，data，比如谁应该访问什么，以及我们是否 OK

59:40

Each of these people accessing the information that we were sharing and we made a decision to go pretty

让这些人中的每一个访问我们当时分享的信息，然后我们决定要相当...

59:45

permissive with access to data

对 data 的访问权限比较宽松

59:48

maybe a little bit maybe

可能有一点点吧，可能

59:51

Meaning not sharing with them everything but sharing with them an agent that we knew full like full and well that

意思是，不是把所有东西都分享给他们，而是分享给他们一个我们完全、完全了解的 agent，这个 agent

59:57

The the agent may share with them certain information that is suboptimal for to be sharing

这个 agent 可能会跟他们分享某些信息，而这些信息分享出去其实是 suboptimal 的

60:03

But we made the decision that in in order to be able to move quick

但我们做了决定，为了能够快速推进

60:07

um

嗯

60:08

It's it made sense

这么做是有道理的

60:10

To be much more free with information than we would have probably been by default

在信息上，比我们 default 情况下可能做到的还要自由得多

60:16

Not information that's you know

不是那种，你知道，信息

60:19

Super-sensitive customer information or something but just you know you got different people on the team and

超级敏感的客户信息之类的，但就是，你知道，团队里有不同的人，而且

60:25

You think a little bit about what each person should have access to um for

你得稍微想一想每个人应该能访问什么，嗯，对于

60:30

For large enterprises that's a non starter like they cannot

对于大型企业来说，这根本行不通，就像他们不能

60:35

Have yeah people and agents have access to information. They shouldn't have so um

让，对，人和 agents 能访问他们不该访问的信息。所以，嗯

60:41

Actually some of the capabilities that we built more recently into nano-claw

实际上，我们最近在 nano-claw 里构建的一些能力

60:45

Are for solving those problems. So we've had we've added capabilities into nano-claw

就是为了解决这些问题。所以我们已经，我们已经把一些能力加进 nano-claw 了

60:50

You have agents agent communication. So I could define

你有 agents，agent communication。所以我可以定义

60:55

By default one nano-claw deployment one instance of nano-claw running in the VM can run many different agents

默认情况下，一个 nano-claw deployment，也就是一个跑在 VM 里的 nano-claw instance，可以运行很多不同的 agents

61:01

And each of those agents are segregated in and isolated in their own sandbox

而且每个 agent 都被分隔开，隔离在它们自己的 sandbox 里

61:06

Which is a hard and docker container

也就是一个 hard 和 docker container

61:08

And they don't have any access to information that other agents have access to

而且它们没法访问其他 agents 能访问到的任何信息

61:12

Then I can by default they can't talk to each other

然后我可以，默认情况下，它们不能互相通信

61:15

They're just happened to be running in the same box in the same VM say the same machine

它们只是碰巧运行在同一个 box、同一个 VM，比如同一台机器里

61:20

But they have no

但是它们没有

61:22

Visibility into the fact that there are any other agents running in this VM

对这个 VM 里还跑着其他 agents 这件事的任何可见性

61:26

But you can wire them up and say this agent can talk to this agent

但你可以把它们接起来，然后说这个 agent 可以跟那个 agent 说话

61:29

And then they get injected into the context the name of the agent that they can talk to and then they can send messages back and forth

然后它们能对话的那个 agent 的名字会被注入到 context 里，接着它们就能来回发消息

61:37

And the orchestration layer of nano-claw checks if they're supposed to be able to talk to each other

而 nano-claw 的 orchestration layer 会检查它们是不是应该能互相对话

61:42

Something that we added recently

这是我们最近加的一个功能

61:44

Is adding an approval gate on that action. So I can set a

就是给这个动作加一个 approval gate。所以我可以设一个

61:50

Gate a rule saying that when my agent is talking to

gate，一条规则，说当我的 agent 在跟

61:55

Someone on my team's agent I need to be asked I get shown the message that it's going to send and I need to approve it

我团队里某个人的 agent 说话时，需要先问我，让我看到它要发的消息，而且我得批准它

62:02

That approval is not it's not a prompt for the agent saying you need to ask for approval

那个 approval 不是，它不是给 agent 的 prompt，说你需要请求批准

62:06

The agent doesn't even know that there's an approval process

agent 甚至都不知道有 approval process 这回事

62:09

It just sends messages back and forth the way normally does

它只是像平常那样来回发消息

62:12

Outside of the agents environment in the orchestration layer the the code non-agentic non AI code that's responsible for taking messages from one agent

在 agents 环境之外的 orchestration layer 里，那段 code——non-agentic、non AI 的 code——负责把消息从一个 agent

62:21

And pushing it to another agent that code enforces these policies

再把它推给另一个 agent，那段 code 会强制执行这些 policies

62:26

And shows me what the agent is trying to send and then I can approve a reject. So with those

并给我看 agent 试图发送什么，然后我就可以 approve 或 reject。所以有了这些

62:31

Wierings of which agent can talk to which agent and where there are these approval gates

wiring：哪个 agent 能跟哪个 agent 对话，以及哪里存在这些 approval gates

62:37

you can enforce data access

你就可以强制执行 data access

62:41

policies and

policies 以及

62:42

Control and

控制和

62:44

Prevent an agent that has access to really sensitive data from sharing that information with an agent that has access to the internet

防止一个能访问特别敏感数据的 agent 把那些信息分享给一个能访问互联网的 agent

62:52

You get us some weights there. I'm sure right like how do you

你在那儿给我们弄到了一些 weights。我确定，对吧，就是你怎么

62:55

How do you manage the the items that you might get from that the fatigue you might get from

你怎么管理那些你可能从那里得到的东西，还有你可能因为

63:00

approving or

批准或者

63:01

having to review a policy or look at different stuff like I mean

不得不审阅一个 policy，或者看各种不同的东西，我是说

63:06

it feels like an onion like in terms of layers there's so many layers and

感觉就像一颗洋葱，就层次来说，有太多层了，而且

63:11

And that did how do you navigate

那这个，你又是怎么应对的

63:15

with nannacle how how to man how to deal with such a complex

跟 nannacle 一起，怎么、怎么搞啊老兄，怎么处理这么复杂的

63:21

multi-layer kind of scenario like that that seems

这种多层级的场景，像那样的，似乎

63:25

Hard to put it to put it the most frank way

很难把它，把它说得最直白一点

63:29

Totally yeah, I think the onion analogies correct there's so many layers to it and

完全没错，是的，我觉得那个洋葱的比喻是对的，它里面有太多层了，而且

63:36

the way with my like architect

那种方式，我那种像 architect 一样的

63:39

Brain right and and way of thinking about things

大脑，对吧，还有思考事情的方式

63:43

Looking at the problem of how do you how do you build in such a complex space where there's so many unknowns

看这个问题：你要怎么，你要怎么在这么复杂、有这么多未知数的空间里去构建

63:50

It's moving so quickly

它进展得太快了

63:52

And it's so complicated and every

而且这太复杂了，每一

63:54

Rock you turn over it's just this you know, so we know there are all

块石头你翻开，它就是这个，你知道，所以我们知道有所有

63:59

Yeah, sorry a rock and find a whole world ecosystem. It's pretty accurate. Go ahead. Yeah

对，抱歉，一块石头，然后发现整个世界的生态系统。这挺准确的。你继续。对

64:05

yeah, so I

对，所以我

64:08

My approach has been to kind of put these blinders on and say I'm gonna tackle one little problem at a time

我的方法一直是有点戴上这些眼罩，然后说我会一次解决一个小问题

64:14

And I know that there's this bigger there's another layer and then I'll add that but I'll get to that layer once I've unwrap this layer

而且我知道有更大的，还有另一层，然后我会加上那个，但我会在解开这一层之后再去处理那一层

64:21

um and

嗯，而且

64:23

The thing with AI and AI agents is

关于 AI 和 AI agents 的事情是

64:26

There is so much value to unlock there's like the way I visualized it as I started to as it started to kind of become real for me

有太多价值等着被解锁了，当这件事对我来说开始慢慢变得真实时，我脑子里的画面大概是这样

64:33

was like we're walking on the street and there's just piles and piles of like

就像我们走在街上，街边就有一堆一堆的

64:38

Value right you think of it however you want you know candy gold

价值，对吧，你想把它想成什么都行，比如糖果、黄金

64:42

Uh, whatever your favorite analogy is your favorite thing is and it's just lying there and

呃，不管你最喜欢的比喻是什么，最喜欢的东西是什么，它就那么躺在那里，而且

64:49

um

嗯

64:51

In that kind of

在那样的

64:52

State world reality that we're operating in where there's so much value

状态、世界、现实里，我们正身处其中，那里有那么多价值

64:55

It's so easy to take an agent and make it do something that used to take lots of time or lots of money

把 agent 拿来，让它去做某件过去要花很多时间或很多钱的事，简直太容易了

65:02

Have an agent you know do something that used to be a whole product category

让你认识的一个 agent 去做某件以前能撑起整个产品品类的事

65:06

And now it's just like a prompt that you give an agent and it runs and it does it for you

而现在，这就像你给 agent 一个 prompt，它就跑起来，替你把它做了

65:11

um, so I mean my sister is non-technical she's building

嗯，所以我是说，我妹妹不懂技术，她在搭

65:16

nano-cloth to

nano-cloth 来

65:17

Find she's runs all these shopping groups with deals and she's using nano-cloth to

找。她运营着所有这些有优惠的购物群，她在用 nano-cloth 来

65:22

Find deals for her and send them into the shopping groups with affiliate links and stuff

帮她找优惠，然后发到那些购物群里，带上 affiliate links 之类的

65:26

um

嗯

65:27

That used to be a whole

这以前可是一整个

65:29

SaaS product that someone would pay like 200 bucks a month for and now it's like agents give them a right prompt

一个 SaaS product，有人愿意每月花差不多 200 美元，而现在就像 agents 给他们一个对的 prompt

65:35

And they'll go and do those things for you

然后它们就会去帮你做那些事

65:37

so

所以

65:38

How do you build in this space you got a focus on

那你要怎么在这个领域里构建？你聚焦在

65:42

Not on solving the whole thing

不是解决整件事

65:45

But on solving one piece that's gonna unlock some chunk of value

而是解决其中一块，这会解锁一部分价值

65:50

And then once I can do that it doesn't solve all the use cases, but if I can solve one use case

然后一旦我能做到这一点，它并不能解决所有 use cases，但如果我能解决一个 use case

65:55

Um, then I can start giving to people getting them using it unlock that value

嗯，那我就可以开始把它给到人们，让他们用起来，解锁那份价值

65:59

And then I'll hit the next one and I'll build another piece and the next one will build another piece

然后我会接着搞下一个，再搭出另一块，下一个又会再搭出另一块

66:03

So that's how we're building it

所以我们就是这么搭建它的

66:04

So I added agent to agent realize this doesn't actually work unless you've got the ability to set rules between agents talking with each other

所以我加上了 agent 对 agent，然后意识到，除非你能给互相交流的 agent 之间设定规则，否则这其实跑不通

66:12

Set those rules we're setting rules

把那些规则定下来，我们正在定规则

66:14

And there are certain workflows where it won't work because permission fatigue the agent is gonna be paying you every 10 seconds for approval

而且有些 workflows 里它行不通，因为 permission fatigue——agent 每 10 秒就会来找你批准一次

66:22

You just shut it off

你干脆直接把它关掉

66:24

But it does unlock certain workflows where the agent could do a bunch of work and then you put an approval gate at one or two key points

但它确实能解锁某些 workflows，agent 可以先做一大堆活儿，然后你在一个或两个关键点上放一个 approval gate

66:32

And it's able to show you certain context you can approve and it carries on

而且它能给你看某些 context，你批准之后它就继续往下走

66:36

So we haven't unlocked everything but even if we don't only unlocked one or two percent or five percent of workflows

所以我们还没解锁全部，但即使我们只解锁了1%、2%或5%的 workflows

66:43

Or the work that people do we can start to bring tremendous value and grow from there

或者人们所做的工作，我们可以开始带来巨大的价值，并从那里发展

66:50

Do you it sounds like you might have the same philosophy I have which is to build the thing you're building the thing you said your focus on because you said you

你是不是——听起来你可能和我有同样的理念，那就是构建你正在构建的东西，你说你专注的东西，因为你说你

66:56

You know young cover this rock you find this ecosystem like oh my gosh there

你知道，你翻开这块石头，你发现这个生态系统，就像，哦我的天，那里

67:00

Behind this major thing I'm building is another major thing that has

在我正在构建的这件大事背后，是另一件大事，它有着

67:04

Five tentacles that I can go down I could just get overwhelmed as an individual human with a brain a human brain that gets

五个触手，我可以顺着往下走，我可能会作为一个有大脑的个体人类被压垮，一个人类大脑会

67:11

cognitively overloaded fairly easily if if I let it

很容易认知过载，如果，如果我任由它的话

67:16

Do you think in terms of like okay? I'm gonna build the simplest

你会不会这样想，比如，好吧？我要构建最简单的

67:19

Focus thing I could do right now not this complexity but the most simplest initial version of it

我现在能做的重点，不是这种复杂度，而是它最简单的最初版本

67:25

Because we can kind of predict this future in a way and get overly complicated

因为我们多少能预测这个未来，然后就搞得过于复杂

67:31

But until we've actually used it put it into practice and learn like hey

但直到我们真正用过它、把它付诸实践，然后发现，嘿

67:35

Actually agent agents actually pretty cool except we need

其实 agent，agents 其实挺酷的，只是我们需要

67:39

We need policies around which agents can talk to which agents and then maybe

我们需要一些 policies，规定哪些 agents 能跟哪些 agents 对话，然后也许

67:44

Just because Andy can talk to Dave or maybe it should be Jim

就因为 Andy 能跟 Dave 说话，或者也许应该是 Jim

67:49

Sorry about that

抱歉

67:51

Or maybe what's the other what's the most favorite Dwight maybe it's Andy Dwight maybe you know agents

或者也许，另一个是什么，最受欢迎的是 Dwight 吗，也许是 Andy、Dwight，也许你知道，agents

67:58

Agent Andy can talk to

Agent Andy 可以跟

68:00

Agent Dwight, but maybe they can't talk about

Agent Dwight 说话，但也许他们不能聊

68:03

uh

呃

68:04

Sales data for example like sales numbers they could talk about

比如说销售数据，像是销售数字，他们可以聊

68:08

Potential deals, but they can't talk about the actual numbers because that gets into

潜在交易，但他们不能聊实际数字，因为那会进入

68:12

Gray area the point I'm trying to make is this I'm getting the details and just fantasizing about this world is created with you

灰色地带。我想表达的重点是，我在了解这些细节，并且只是在幻想这个和你一起创造出来的世界

68:18

On Andy and in Dwight is when you are focused on the thing you're actually building do you have the mind of let me build the simplest thing first

在 Andy 和 Dwight 身上，就是当你专注于你真正在构建的东西时，你有没有那种心态：让我先构建最简单的东西

68:27

Play with it and see how it needs to change and fit and grow and

玩一玩，看看它需要怎么变化、适应和成长，然后

68:30

And morph or how do you how do you approach?

那 morph，或者说你是怎么、你是怎么入手的？

68:35

You know agent to agent messaging for example and then go from there

你知道，比如说 agent to agent messaging，然后从那儿往下走

68:39

Yeah, it is a combination right there's certain

对，它是一个组合，对吧，有些

68:43

Points where you want to stop and think deeply about what you're trying to build and what's the right way to approach it when it comes for example to

点，你会想停下来深入思考你想构建什么，以及正确的入手方式是什么，比如说到

68:53

Two policies, right and rules and enforcement of policies so we built

两种 policy，对吧，还有 rules 和 policy 的 enforcement，所以我们构建了

69:00

Built it quite simply saying okay, we need to add a policy here. We need added the ability to gate over here

构建得很简单，就是说好吧，我们需要在这里加一个 policy。我们需要在这边加上 gate 的能力

69:06

Agent agent communication network requests creating an agent a new agent

Agent agent communication、network requests、创建一个 agent、一个新 agent

69:12

having adding

拥有、添加

69:14

new

新的

69:16

NPM packages into the agent's environment those things we need to have approvals and we added more and more

NPM packages 装进 agent 的 environment，这些东西我们需要有审批，而且我们加得越来越多

69:21

And then we got to this point where it's okay. We've got eight different places where

然后我们就到了这个点，好吧。我们有八个不同的地方，

69:26

We have these approval flows that are being enforced by lines of code and all kinds of places in the project and

我们有这些 approval flows，它们是被一行行代码强制执行的，项目里各种地方都有，而且

69:34

There's a point where now we're working on how do we

到了一个点，现在我们正在研究，我们怎么

69:38

Create enforcement of policies and rules as

创建对 policies 和 rules 的执行，让它

69:44

Enforced by the architecture and not enforced by a random line of code there and around the line of code here

由 architecture 来强制执行，而不是靠这里一行、那里一行的随机代码来强制执行

69:51

and

而且

69:53

That is I guess coming from a need like we look at it and we say okay. There's a need here. We got to tackle that

我觉得这应该是来自一种需求，就像我们看着它然后说好吧。这里有个需求。我们得解决它

69:58

I think when it comes to the security side

我觉得当涉及到安全方面

70:02

That's where we're being a lot more careful and thoughtful about things

那就是我们更加谨慎和深思熟虑的地方

70:07

In general, yeah, it's build the the smallest version

总的来说，对，就是做最小的那个版本

70:10

So I you know, we write our kind of what we're building you got the p1 p2 p3 and you know kind of milestones

所以你知道，我们会写下我们大概要做什么，你有p1 p2 p3这些里程碑

70:17

And I find myself going to p0 and then I'm doing p00 and p00 and just scoping down to like what is the absolute minimum thing

然后我发现自己会去做p0，然后我又在做p00和p00，就只是一直缩小范围到，这里我们能做的绝对最小的事情是什么

70:27

We could do here that's gonna make this work and then let's start adding on gradually as we go

能让这个跑起来，然后我们就开始逐步往上加

70:32

I think it comes from

我觉得这来自于

70:33

Let's figure out if this is something we need it all but also it helps to focus the development

我们先弄清楚这是不是我们真正需要的东西，不过这也有助于让开发更聚焦

70:40

It's so easy to write code now right or send an agent off to write code

现在写代码也太容易了，对吧，或者直接派个 agent 去写代码

70:45

So you can get a lot of a lot of code and and it just becomes bloat

所以你会得到很多很多代码，然后它就变得很臃肿

70:50

So scoping it down to the absolute minimum and kind of

所以把 scope 缩到绝对最小，然后有点像是

70:54

crafting on little pieces that you need

只去精心打磨你需要的那些小块

70:56

Helps control the scope agents will just suggest. Oh, what do we add this?

这有助于控制 scope。agent 总是会建议，哦，我们加这个怎么样？

70:59

Why don't we add that let's add it? You know defensive mechanism here and validation here

我们为什么不加那个呢？加吧？你知道，这里加个 defensive mechanism，那里加个 validation

71:04

And I think as architects

而我觉得，作为架构师

71:07

We have to keep them keep them focused

我们得让他们保持专注，让他们保持专注

71:11

You know it comes down to attention right human attention agent attention and and pointing it in the right place

你知道，归根结底还是 attention，对吧？人的 attention、agent 的 attention，然后把它指向正确的地方

71:21

But I think also it's about collecting requirements. So build it

但我觉得，这也关乎收集需求。所以就去把它 build 出来

71:25

Get people using it and then figure out what do they actually really need and even just using it yourself

让人们用起来，然后搞清楚他们真正到底需要什么，甚至就你自己用

71:31

Have an agent build a prototype for you hacky dirty prototype in a half hour play around with it and then feel

让一个 agent 给你 build 一个 prototype，半小时内搞个 hacky dirty prototype，玩一玩，然后感受一下

71:37

How you know, how does it work is this what I really want

感觉一下，你知道，它是怎么运作的，这是不是我真正想要的

71:41

And so yeah build the simplest thing generally as as a general 100% what are your thoughts on creating an agent in terms of

所以，对，通常就 build 最简单的东西，作为一个通用原则，100% 是这样。那关于创建一个 agent，你有什么想法，在……方面

71:50

Doesn't agent get I know you named it Andy right

agent 不是会 get 吗？我知道你给它起名叫 Andy，对吧

71:54

So it has an identity in terms of a name, but how much further beyond Andy

所以它在名字上有一个 identity，但除了 Andy 之外还能走多远

72:00

is

呢？

72:01

And maybe for nanoclots one way and in your mind and how you feel about other agents is different but

也许对 nanoclots 来说是一种方式，而在你看来、你对其他 agent 的感受是不一样的，但是

72:07

Uh, let me understand what you think about

呃，让我理解一下你是怎么想的

72:10

Agent identity like what exactly is an agent identity?

Agent identity，比如到底什么是 agent identity？

72:15

Should it get an SSH key should have key like things so it could be its own thing should it when it commits to your repository or

它应该拿到一个 SSH key 吗，应该有类似 key 的东西，这样它就能成为它自己的个体？当它 commit 到你的 repository 时，它是不是应该这样？或者

72:23

You know wherever there needs to be an audit of a log of who did it?

你知道，凡是需要有一个 log，来 audit 是谁做的？

72:27

It can't be you know you everywhere. It's got to be probably like your sub agent Andy like how do you think about identity

它不能，你知道，到处都是你。它大概得像是你的 sub agent Andy 那样。比如你怎么看 identity？

72:34

And what exactly mince an identity for you and nanoclom?

那 identity 对你和 nanoclom 来说到底意味着什么？

72:42

I don't I think it's a little bit of an

我不知道，我觉得这还算是一个

72:46

Not fully solved problem yet

还没有完全解决的问题

72:49

I think it goes

我觉得这要

72:51

Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to that thing of how can we

对，对，我觉得这要回到那个问题上，就是我们怎么才能

72:55

Unlock some value do something with the primitives that we have

释放一些价值，用我们现有的 primitives 做点什么

72:59

um

嗯

73:00

Knowing that we don't have all the pieces in place yet

同时清楚我们还没有把所有拼图都放到位

73:02

um all the you know the cards haven't been

嗯，就是，你知道，那些牌还没

73:05

Haven't been turned over yet um, so I think what we can do now is

还没翻开，嗯，所以我觉得我们现在能做的是

73:12

Actions that require approval so actions that are sensitive

需要审批的 actions，所以就是那些敏感的 actions

73:17

um need to be

嗯，需要被

73:21

um

嗯

73:22

So what we have for example we have agents that are um reviewing uh

所以，比方说，我们有 agents，它们在，嗯，review，呃

73:28

Reviewing code testing it and then making a suggestion of this this is good to merge right

review code、测试它，然后建议说这个，这个可以 merge，对吧

73:35

And then we as a team are looking over their suggestions

然后我们作为一个团队，会一起看他们的建议

73:38

And this isn't in our slack. It's one of our agent factories for reviewing code

而且这个不在我们的 Slack 里。它是我们用来 review code 的 agent factory 之一。

73:43

We look it over and it's got this um command that it's saying okay. This could be merged

我们看了一下，它里面有个嗯 command，意思是 okay。这个可以 merge 了。

73:47

So it writes out a command for us um and then

所以它给我们写出一条 command，嗯，然后

73:51

The agent can't actually run it doesn't have any credentials in its sandbox

这个 agent 其实没法运行它，它的 sandbox 里没有任何 credentials。

73:54

But it writes out the command and the orchestration part of nanoclom we've customized so that

但它会把 command 写出来，而 nanoclom 的 orchestration 部分我们定制过，这样

73:59

It gets that command and shows us this card saying approve reject

它拿到那个 command，然后给我们展示一张写着 approve reject 的 card。

74:03

Right and then

对，然后

74:05

We have in the credential vault each person in the team's credentials

我们在 credential vault 里存了团队里每个人的 credentials。

74:10

And the orchestration layer when someone clicks

然后 orchestration layer，当有人点击

74:13

Approve it looks at who clicked approve

Approve 的时候，它会看是谁点的 approve

74:17

And then uses their credentials

然后用他们的 credentials

74:19

Right and that's very intentional. It's yeah, it's cool

对，而且这是非常刻意的。就是，嗯，这很酷

74:23

The agent can't merge code and we don't want our agent merging code

这个 agent 不能 merge code，我们也不想让我们的 agent merge code

74:27

It can do a review it can give us context it can surface things and point to our attention

它可以做 review，可以给我们 context，可以把一些东西 surface 出来，让我们注意到

74:31

Here's what it's worth looking at and here's how you can know this is mergeable

这是值得看的东西，以及你怎么知道这是可以 merge 的

74:35

But in the end of the day where the people are the ones who are merging code and it's with our credentials

但说到底，最终 merge code 的是人，而且用的是我们的 credentials

74:42

It gets a bit more complicated when it comes to read

一说到 read，事情就有点更复杂了

74:45

Read actions where you also need audit uh and logs

尤其是那些 read actions，你还得做 audit，呃，还有 logs

74:51

In that case, I think you do need to have

那种情况下，我觉得你确实需要有

74:54

The human identity but

human identity，但

74:56

delegated to an agent

是 delegated 给一个 agent

74:59

And I don't think we we have the mechanism fully in place yet for that

而且我觉得，针对这一点，我们还没有把机制完全搭好

75:05

But there are some great companies and projects

不过也有一些很棒的公司和项目

75:08

Like one of the ones we partnered with which is called one CLI and they are building

比如我们合作过的其中一家，叫 one CLI，他们正在做

75:13

That identity for for agents

agents 的那套身份

75:18

So that you can express those kinds of concepts

这样你就能表达那类概念

75:21

Yeah

对

75:23

Let's interesting them to make it unapproval and this is a nanoclaught thing

咱们来让他们感兴趣，把它弄成 unapproval，而这是 nanoclaught 的事

75:27

This is like maybe your thoughts but also I imagine most of your thoughts you're baking into

这有点像，也许是你的想法，但我也想象，你大部分的想法，你都在把它们烙进

75:32

Your ideas your DNA and how you think about things are being baked into nanoclaught

你的想法、你的 DNA，以及你思考事情的方式，都在被烙进 nanoclaught

75:37

You said that agents don't merge code

你说过 agents 不会 merge code

75:41

But they can do all the things that surface intent

但它们能做所有能 surface intent 的事

75:44

And then you'll hear a bunch of other people say oh my gosh if I had to merge every

然后你就会听到一堆其他人说，我的天，如果我非得 merge 每一个的话

75:50

You know if it's a pull request sure if it's a merge request sure

你知道，如果是个 pull request，当然行；如果是个 merge request，当然行

75:52

Whatever you want to call these things these days. I'm sure it'll change

现在这些东西你爱怎么叫就怎么叫。我敢肯定它会变

75:55

Soon because maybe GitHub's going down and something else is coming up not not me like going down like negative

很快，因为也许 GitHub 要 down 了，然后别的什么会冒出来。不是不是说我，like going down，像负面那种

76:00

It's more like in terms of usage

更像是从使用量来说

76:03

Um a lot of people upset with get up man gosh

嗯，很多人对 get up 不爽啊，天哪

76:06

It sounds like you want the human in your in this policy driven world that is inside a nanoclaught

听起来你想让人类在你这个……在这个 policy 驱动的世界里，而那是在一个 nanoclaught 里面

76:14

Understand correctly that

要正确理解的是

76:16

You don't want an agent to merge the code you want a human to approve it and the merge is

你不希望让 agent 去 merge code，你希望由人类来批准，而且这个 merge 是

76:23

Accredited to that person and their credential versus the agent to

记在那个人和他们的 credential 名下，而不是归给 agent——那个

76:30

In quotes actually did the work. Is that right?

所谓“实际做了工作”的。对吗？

76:35

Yeah, and I guess you could you could zoom out a bit and think about it on on more of the abstract for philosophical level of

对，而且我想你可以稍微拉远一点，从更抽象、更哲学一点的层面来想

76:43

the world that I want to see

我想要看到的那个

76:46

Evolving and developing is one where humans are still at the center and stay at the center and agents are

不断演化和发展中的世界，是这样一个世界：人类仍然处在中心，并且一直处在中心，而 agent 是

76:54

uh amplifiers and

呃，放大器，而且

76:58

Uh

呃

76:59

They amplify what humans can do so using agents humans can do

它们放大了人类能做的事，所以借助 agents，人类能做到

77:05

10 times 100 times a thousand times and we're probably reaching a point where there are 10,000 x developers out there

10 倍、100 倍、1000 倍，而且我们可能正接近一个点：外面有 10,000x developers

77:12

um who are doing you know rewrites of

嗯，他们正在做，你知道，对大型 open source 项目的 rewrites

77:15

of massive open source projects in in a matter of weeks

就在几周之内

77:19

um and

嗯，还有

77:21

Building out you know successful projects and days right and it's

搭建出，你知道，成功的项目，几天就行，对吧，而且这

77:26

But we want it to be

但我们希望它是

77:29

The person who's now 10,000 x and not just an agent that brings all this value

那个现在做到 10,000x 的人，而不只是带来所有这些价值的 agent

77:35

but the humans should be at the center and and

但人类应该处在中心，而且，而且

77:39

I don't know necessarily if

我不确定是不是一定要

77:42

We have to be like maybe you could build things in a way where we remove agents remove humans from this process and

我们得像是，也许你可以用一种方式来做，就是我们把 agents 从流程里去掉，把人类从流程里去掉，然后

77:49

Companies just become a whole bunch of agents

公司就变成一大堆 agents

77:52

That's not the world that I want to build

那不是我想构建的世界

77:53

I want to try to build things in a way that humans stay at the center. We have our place we

我想尝试用一种让人类始终处在中心的方式来构建这些东西。我们有我们的位置，我们

77:59

Are the ones who are giving the directions and just making the the important decisions and and staying in control

是那些给出方向的人，是做那些，那些重要决定的人，而且，而且始终掌控着局面

78:08

So so that's the way we're building it in when we're bringing it to companies

所以，所以这就是我们把它构建进去的方式，当我们把它带给公司的时候

78:12

It's the same approach. Uh, we're saying we're going to give each person in your team an agent and assistant

这是同样的思路。呃，我们说的是，我们会给你团队里的每个人配一个 agent 和一个 assistant

78:17

That's going to help them. It can help the person do their work. Gonna make them more effective to three times more effective and

这会帮到他们。它能帮这个人完成工作。会让他们更高效，效率提高到三倍，而且

78:25

um and the people in your team

嗯，还有你团队里的人

78:28

need to become

需要成为

78:30

Managers of agents like that's where the world is going if you've got 10,000 people in your organization

agents 的管理者，世界就是朝这个方向走的，如果你组织里有 10,000 人

78:36

Fast forward two years. You're going to have a hundred thousand agents in your organization

快进到两年后。你组织里会有十万个 agents

78:41

So every human has to become a manager of agents and that's a big transition for people who have

所以每个人都要成为 agents 的管理者，而这对那些人来说是个巨大的转变，他们

78:47

Never done managerial work before they have to learn a lot of new skills like

以前从来没做过管理工作，他们得学很多新技能，比如

78:52

Clearly communicating what they want and what their intent is

清楚地沟通他们想要什么，以及他们的 intent 是什么

78:56

Giving feedback

给 feedback

78:58

Taking responsibility reviewing other other work of other people or in this case other agents

负责 review 其他人的工作，或者在这个情况下，其他 agent 的工作

79:03

so it's a whole new skill set and

所以这是一整套全新的技能组合，而且

79:06

The way we're approaching it is the the starting point is give each person an agent where it's one to one

我们的做法是，起点是给每个人一个 agent，而且是一对一的

79:12

They take responsibility for it

他们要对它负责

79:14

They give it feedback. They kind of train it and tell it what they need and what they want

他们给它 feedback。他们有点像是在 train 它，告诉它他们需要什么、想要什么

79:18

Um, and that's going to get them started on this path where they're then going to manage a second and a third and a fourth and a fifth

嗯，然后这会让他们开始走上这条路，之后他们会去管理第二个、第三个、第四个、第五个

79:25

And I think organizations that are able to do that process effectively

而且我觉得，那些能有效做好这个流程的组织

79:30

are there's going to be a place and value like they're all the people who are in the organization who have a lot of tribal knowledge and

都会有一席之地，也会很有价值，就像组织里所有那些掌握大量 tribal knowledge 的人，还有

79:37

all this expertise

所有这些专业知识

79:39

That they've built up over a long time

都是他们长期积累起来的

79:41

There will be a place for them and they will be able to bring value fast forward you know a year or two years

他们都会有自己的位置，也能带来价值。快进到，你知道，一两年后

79:47

And they won't need to lay off you know 90% of their team because

而且他们不需要，你知道，裁掉自己团队里 90% 的人，因为

79:52

The people are going to be able to come along with them

这些人能跟着他们一起走

79:55

Into this value generation that agents are creating organizations that aren't able to bring the people along

进入 agents 正在创造的这种价值生成里；而那些没法把人一起带上的组织

80:02

You know, they're gonna they're gonna end up doing mass layoffs. So I think that they're responsible

你知道，他们，他们最后会搞大规模裁员的。所以我觉得他们有责任

80:08

You know ethical

你知道，合乎伦理的

80:10

Secure way of doing AI is is along that path of thinking how do we

做 AI 的安全方式，是沿着那种思路：我们怎么

80:16

Bring everyone along with us and don't just focus on the

让所有人都跟我们一起走，而不是只关注

80:19

The super users and the 10 at 10,000 Xers, but

那些超级用户和 10x、10,000x 的人，而是

80:23

Make sure that the average person is is able to

确保普通人能够

80:27

You know, it has a place and is able to bring value in the future. I guess it makes sense too to

你知道，在未来有自己的一席之地，能够带来价值。我觉得这也说得通，

80:33

That Nana Claus not a developer tool to create more software

Nana Claus 不是一个用来创建更多 software 的 developer tool

80:38

It is more of a business focus tool to as you said before amplifying humans output

它更像是一个聚焦业务的工具，就像你之前说的，用来放大人类的产出

80:43

Which makes more sense because

这就更说得通了，因为

80:46

When you think about agents and loops on the developer

当你从开发者的角度去想 agents 和 loops 时

80:49

I naturally think about how's it gonna help you make more software right but everybody else who's not a developer is like

我自然会想它怎么帮你做出更多软件，对吧，但其他所有不是开发者的人就会像

80:57

Like what software like you know not really that but

比如，什么软件啊，你懂的，其实并不是那样，但

81:01

About six months ago. Maybe maybe eight months ago my wife

大概六个月前。也许，也许八个月前，我妻子

81:06

I'll share a quick aside on this and go back into our real conversation, but

我先就这个插一句题外话，然后再回到我们真正的对话，但

81:10

We were driving in the car

我们当时正在开车

81:11

I think and I think I said to her and I'm driving and I think I said to her

我想，我记得我跟她说过，当时我在开车，我记得我跟她说过

81:18

I forget the exact conversation

我忘了具体的对话内容

81:19

But the the important point is is that I was making a remark about Linux powering the internet

但重点是，我当时在说 Linux 支撑着互联网这件事

81:25

And I said something like maybe you know

然后我说了类似这样的话，也许你知道

81:29

People have to know right that Linux is what powers the internet right she's like

大家必须得知道吧，Linux 才是支撑互联网的东西，对吧，她来了一句

81:34

No

不

81:36

No one in the world besides people like you Adam

这个世界上除了像你这样的人，Adam，没有人

81:40

Know that Linux exists

知道 Linux 存在

81:42

No one

没人

81:43

Your average person who just doesn't know anything about software or software development

就是那种普通人，对 software 或者 software development 完全一无所知

81:48

Maybe they've heard of it. They have no idea what it is and the fact that it runs most the internet the large majority of it is

可能他们听说过它。他们根本不知道它是什么，也不知道它支撑着大部分 internet——绝大部分 internet——这个事实

81:57

Is lost on most people and I was like that's that can't be true and that can't be true

大多数人根本意识不到，而我就觉得，那不可能，那不可能

82:01

So she goes home and she hops on Facebook, which is the place you talked to

于是她回到家，打开 Facebook，而 Facebook 就是你去跟

82:06

most normal folks Facebook

大多数普通人聊天的地方。Facebook

82:08

Instagram

82:10

and

还有

82:11

And she puts this post out and it's one of those banner posts. It's like a it's got

然后她发了这个帖子，是那种横幅帖。就像是一个，它有个

82:16

I don't know. I guess a banner image and a big text kind of thing

我不知道。我猜是张横幅图，再加一大块文字那种东西

82:18

It's not like this little text where it's her prose like a post might be it's more like an image

不是那种一小段文字、像她写的散文式帖子那样，它更像一张图

82:23

And I think it's isn't like probing her her people her friend groups about this the subject

而且我觉得这不像是在向她身边的人、她的朋友圈子试探这个话题

82:30

And the comments were hilarious that

然后评论特别搞笑，居然

82:34

This thing even exists that Linux exists like what there's something that powers the internet not

这东西居然存在，Linux 居然存在，什么鬼，居然有个东西在支撑着 internet，不是

82:40

And not a hamster will with hamsters running the internet like there's a bunch of jokes

而且也不是仓鼠轮，让一群仓鼠跑着驱动 internet，反正有一堆笑话

82:44

And so egg on my face. I had no idea that the rest of the world didn't know that Linux runs the internet

所以搞得我很尴尬。我完全不知道，原来世界上其他人并不知道 Linux 在驱动着 internet

82:49

Okay, so

好，那么

82:50

That being said back to an end of claw and and it's in its case the case is largely focused on amplifying

话虽如此，回到 an end of claw，而且，而且它在它的 case 里，这个 case 主要是专注于放大

82:56

Business output. So it makes sense

业务产出。所以这说得通

82:59

You know some of the choices you've made and how you've made them because it's not a developer tool

你知道，你做过的一些选择以及你是怎么做出这些选择的，因为它不是一个 developer tool

83:03

To make more software. It's a different tool for people to use to amplify

来做出更多 software。它是一个不同的工具，供人们用来放大

83:08

When you think about that like that kind of installation

当你那样想，那种安装方式

83:13

Is uniquely different maybe not uniquely different but

是独一无二地不同，也许不是独一无二地不同，但

83:18

Potentially uniquely different than developer tooling is installed in an enterprise

可能和 developer tooling 在企业里的安装方式有着独一无二的不同

83:23

Uh, I just installed in a claw on a Mac mini, you know, and I'm not worried about

呃，我刚在 Mac mini 上装了个 claw，你知道吧，而且我不担心

83:28

uh

呃

83:29

Business continuity. I'm not worried about the databases that it's making because of these agent to agent conversations

Business continuity。我不担心它因为这些 agent 对 agent 的对话而生成的那些 databases

83:35

And this as you mentioned before one of several agents now

而这，就像你之前提到的，现在它是好几个 agents 中的一个

83:38

You know, Adam has four or five agents because I work you know in accounting or whatever

你知道，Adam 有四五个 agents，因为我，你知道，做会计还是什么的

83:42

And the next year I have a hundred agents like that begins to become

然后明年我有一百个 agents，那样就开始变得

83:48

Uh, like business critical, right? You think

呃，就像 business critical，对吧？你觉得

83:52

Business continuity does that's recovery like these are all

Business continuity 那也算 recovery，像这些都是

83:56

phrases that come up in this world. How does nanoclaw fit into

在这个世界里会出现的那些说法。nanoclaw 要怎么融入

84:00

That world take me through

那个世界？带我走一遍

84:02

What it might be like to instaniate

如果要 instantiate

84:05

Nanoclaw in an enterprise that you're consulting foreign and with to build out their agent fleets etc

Nanoclaw 在一家你正在做咨询、并且要和他们一起搭建 agent fleets 等等的企业里，会是什么样子

84:10

How does it work? Give me a

它怎么运作？给我一个

84:12

Emia zoom into that world. So the first thing is

让我 zoom into 那个世界。所以第一件事是

84:16

Like you're saying it's

就像你说的，它是

84:18

Business critical in some ways the agents become the whole company. It's kind of their workforce and

在某种意义上已经是 business critical，这些 agent 变成了整个公司。它有点像他们的员工队伍，而且

84:27

For any kind of large company

对于任何类型的大公司

84:30

That has to be in their cloud environment, right in their

那必须放在他们的 cloud environment 里，就在他们的

84:34

AWS account or gcpu or jure and you know starting to speak to some companies now that are even on prem

AWS account 或者 GCP 或者 Azure 里，而且你知道，我们现在开始跟一些公司聊，他们甚至是 on prem 的

84:42

and

而且

84:43

They don't want and they can't have any of their

他们不想，也不能让他们的任何

84:47

Data other employee data customer data sensitive data leaving their cloud environment

data、其他 employee data、customer data、sensitive data 离开他们的 cloud environment

84:52

So we do deployments fully into their cloud

所以我们会把 deployments 完全做进他们的 cloud

84:56

Environment into AWS just bad rock gcpu with vertex or you know can deploy to Azure

environment，进到 AWS，就是 Bedrock、GCP 配 Vertex，或者你知道，也可以 deploy 到 Azure

85:05

Connecting integrating with their idp octa-entra whatever they're on

连接、集成他们的 idp octa-entra，不管他们用的是哪个

85:12

and

而且

85:14

It needs to be

它必须是

85:19

The continuity part. I mean it is it's it is mission critical for the company

连续性那部分。我的意思是，它，这，这对公司来说就是 mission critical

85:25

so I think

所以我觉得

85:28

The idea that this is going to be sending data externally or living externally especially when you think about agents building up

这种要把数据发到外部、或者存在外部的想法，尤其是当你想到 agents 在积累

85:37

Knowledge and memory right so okay, you're sharing sensitive data with them

knowledge 和 memory，对吧，所以好吧，你是在把敏感数据分享给它们

85:41

But then it's not just a file that can be deleted that then gets added to all

但这样一来，它就不只是一个可以被删掉的文件，然后还会被加到所有里面

85:46

kinds of other files and and

各种其他文件，还有还有

85:49

places where the agent stores information and

agent 存储信息的地方，还有

85:53

You get the theitis like you're saying of you know now everything that agent knows is sort of

你会明白这个意思，就像你说的，你知道，现在 agent 知道的所有东西都有点

86:00

contaminated with sensitive data

被 sensitive data 污染了

86:02

So the whole thing just has to be in the companies in the companies environment. There's also an element of

所以整个东西就只能放在公司里，放在公司的环境里。还有一个因素是

86:11

this is so complex

这太复杂了

86:13

that

以至于

86:15

You can't expect companies to look at a super complicated architecture where

你不能指望公司去看一个超级复杂的 architecture，其中

86:20

Certain things are running on their cloud and certain things are running hosted and certain things are running somewhere else and expect them to look at that and go

有些东西跑在他们的 cloud 上，有些东西是 hosted 运行的，还有些东西跑在别的地方，然后指望他们看到这个就说

86:27

Okay, this yeah, I get through this whole complicated architecture why this actually is safe and secure so everything running in their account

好吧，这个，对，我能看懂这整套复杂的 architecture，为什么这实际上是安全可靠的，所以所有东西都跑在他们的 account 里

86:37

There's a credential gateway

有一个 credential gateway

86:41

where

其中

86:42

When employees

当员工

86:43

Sign in through SSO

通过 SSO 登录

86:45

To you know authenticate with Google or other

去，你知道，用 Google 或其他

86:49

Services they use the credentials get stored in the credential gateway agents run in sandboxes

他们用的 services 来 authenticate，credentials 会被存到 credential gateway 里，agents 在 sandboxes 里运行

86:56

All requests are proxy through the agent gateway

所有 request 都是通过 agent gateway 代理的

87:00

and

然后

87:02

Are then that's where policies are enforced and credentials are injected so

然后就是在这里执行 policies，并注入 credentials，所以

87:07

The agent gateway hold secrets the credential gateway hold secrets it looks at each request and

agent gateway 持有 secrets，credential gateway 持有 secrets，它会检查每个 request，然后

87:13

Enforces policies of should AC group be injected here based on the policy set

根据 policy set 执行 policies，判断这里要不要注入 AC group

87:18

Should the sick request be allowed through should we enforce human approval in that case

这个 sick request 该不该放行，这种情况下我们要不要强制执行 human approval

87:23

Send a message to the messaging app to the user asking for approval

通过 messaging app 给用户发一条消息，请求 approval

87:28

And that gets sent just by the gateway without it going back to the agent

而这只是由 gateway 发出去的，不用再回到 agent 那边

87:33

and then

然后

87:36

There's the the data I mean the way we're deploying it is

就是那个 data，我是说，我们部署它的方式是

87:42

Keep it really simple

保持特别简单

87:44

So we're not going and and goes back to what we're saying earlier not jumping to Kubernetes and and thinking about

所以我们不会——这又回到我们之前说的——不会直接跳到 Kubernetes，然后去考虑

87:52

You know, how do we scale this to a hundred thousand and a million agents

你知道，我们怎么把它 scale 到十万、一百万个 agents

87:57

Yeah, maybe we get there, but for now. It's just really simple VMs, you know in in the cloud spin up

对，也许我们会做到那一步，但现在。就只是非常简单的 VMs，你知道，在 cloud 里 spin up

88:04

EC2 instance

88:07

data is stored and in you know

data 就存在，然后，你知道

88:10

EBS volume encrypted check pointed backed up

EBS volume 加密了、做了 checkpoint、也备份了

88:14

um and

嗯，然后

88:16

Keep the architecture really simple. I think

把 architecture 保持得特别简单。我觉得

88:20

Just the last point on the architecture. I think people have maybe some wrong intuitions about what compute resources

就 architecture 的最后一点来说。我觉得大家可能对运行 agentic workloads 要花多少 compute resources 有一些错误的直觉

88:27

Running agentic workloads takes so they think oh, it's agents. It's really heavy. You know all this inference and whatnot

所以他们会想，哦，是 agents。它真的很重。你知道所有这些 inference 之类的

88:32

But your machine isn't running the inference right inference is going to bedrock even if you have your own open source models

但你的机器并不是在跑 inference，对吧？inference 是去 bedrock 的，就算你有自己的 open source models

88:39

Running in GPUs. That's a separate GPU that's doing the inference. It's not just the machine that your agents are running on with their sandboxes

跑在 GPUs 上。那是单独的 GPU 在做 inference。并不只是你的 agents 和它们的 sandboxes 一起跑在上面的那台机器

88:46

so

所以

88:47

Actually, it doesn't take much compute resources. They're mostly doing some

其实，它并不需要太多 compute resources。它们大部分时间是在做一些

88:51

Reading some files writing some files occasionally mostly doing network requests for inference for tool calls

读一些文件、写一些文件，偶尔，主要还是为 inference、为 tool calls 发 network requests

88:57

a lot of time waiting for

很多时候都在等

89:00

For the LLM

等 LLM

89:02

So it's actually very compute

所以它其实非常

89:05

non compute intensive

不 compute intensive

89:06

So you can run on a relatively small machine a 16 CPUs

所以你可以在一台相对小的机器上跑，16 CPUs

89:12

64 gig RAM

89:14

And I've tested this you can run 200 agents in each one in their own container

我测过这个，你可以跑 200 个 agents，每个都在自己的 container 里。

89:20

And you set them off at the exact same instant go and do something do a research job

然后你在完全同一瞬间把它们放出去，去干点事，做个研究任务。

89:25

and then

然后

89:26

Yeah, and and that's that's totally fine they can handle that

对，而且那完全没问题，它们能处理得了。

89:30

And then if you think about staggering the starts so I have age active agents

然后如果你考虑把启动时间错开，这样我就有已经活跃一段时间的 agents

89:35

But they're not starting at the exact same moment you could probably get to 400 500 and then if you think about

但它们不是在完全同一时刻启动的，你大概能到 400、500，然后如果你再想想

89:41

Active users

活跃用户

89:43

One machine small machine that's probably a thousand maybe a couple thousand users

一台机器，小机器，那大概就是一千，也许两千个用户

89:48

So a big machine in the cloud, you know take the biggest machine you can get standard on AWS

所以就是 cloud 里的一台大机器，你知道，拿你在 AWS 上能搞到的标准最大机器

89:55

You can run tens and tens maybe a hundred thousand agents

你可以跑几十、几十，也许十万个 agents

89:59

When you're thinking that they're not all active at the same time

你想想，它们并不是全都在同一时间活跃

90:01

Yeah, so I think people's intuition is a little bit off

对，所以我觉得人们的直觉有点不太准

90:05

Latency also is in a major issue when it comes to agents

说到 agents，Latency 也是个大问题

90:08

You don't need sandboxes. It's been up in you know 12 milliseconds or 32 milliseconds or whatever

你不需要 sandboxes。它启动也就，你知道，12 毫秒、32 毫秒之类的

90:15

It's you anyways wait multiple seconds sometimes minutes for the agents to do their work

反正你无论如何都要等好几秒，有时候甚至几分钟，等 agents 把活干完

90:21

So even an extra half a second or a second of late doesn't matter. Yeah, really. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. Yeah

所以就算多出半秒或者一秒的 latency，也无所谓。对，真的。对，真的无所谓。对

90:28

Well, that's interesting. So how uh and everything you're doing is built on the open source version of

嗯，这挺有意思的。那，呃，你做的一切都是基于 open source 版本的

90:36

Nano-Cloud you have a separate

Nano-Cloud，你有一个单独的

90:38

repository that you deploy into enterprises or what's

repository，用来部署到企业里，还是说

90:42

What's the what's the take there a separate or same

这到底是怎么回事？是单独的，还是同一个？

90:46

So

所以

90:47

It's the same Nano-Cloud there are

就是同一个 Nano-Cloud，有一些

90:51

Separate things that are not it's not a different version of Nano-Cloud

单独的东西，但并不是说它是 Nano-Cloud 的另一个版本

90:55

It's just separate pieces that you don't have in the open source

只是你在 open source 里没有的一些独立组件

90:58

Things related to connecting with identity providers and audit logs and governance very enterprises type things

跟 identity providers、audit logs 和 governance 对接相关的东西，非常 enterprise 类型的东西

91:05

Yeah, yeah, so it's very

对，对，所以它非常

91:08

Yeah, it's kind of a whole separate service

对，它算是一个完全独立的 service

91:09

So we pick up the Nano-Cloud service which is very much which is just the open source

所以我们接的是 Nano-Cloud service，它其实基本上就是那个 open source

91:14

And then we raise the

然后我们启动

91:16

Governing service and the two talk to each other

Governing service，然后这两个会互相通信

91:19

But it is very much a separate service

但它确实是一个完全独立的 service

91:21

So it isn't like extending the open source and then the open source itself is

所以它不是那种去扩展 open source，然后 open source 本身就是

91:27

the

这个

91:29

Nano-Cloud is the open source version

Nano-Cloud 是 open source 版本

91:32

We do need to customize it for different customers based on their needs and that comes back to the skills approach

我们确实需要根据不同客户的需求来定制它，而这又回到了 skills approach 上

91:39

So we've really gone all in on this skills approach

所以我们真的在这个 skills approach 上全力以赴了

91:43

And we're building custom versions of Nano-Cloud for customers. So

而且我们在为客户构建 Nano-Cloud 的定制版本。所以

91:48

I guess it's important to say there are tens of thousands of users of Nano-Cloud the project on github has been forked something like 13,000 times

我想有一点很重要，Nano-Cloud 有成千上万的用户，这个项目在 github 上被 fork 了大概 13,000 次

91:56

Many probably most people using it have their own

很多，可能大多数人用它的人都有自己的

92:00

fork so even if they haven't officially forked it on github they've cloned it and then

fork，所以就算他们没有在 github 上正式 fork，也会把它 clone 下来，然后

92:05

pointed it to their own

把它指向了他们自己的

92:08

Upstream so private repo. So there's tens of thousands of forks of Nano-Cloud and then each person is customizing it and

Upstream，所以是 private repo。所以 Nano-Cloud 有成千上万个 forks，然后每个人都在定制它，而且

92:17

That's it's a pain in the ass to pull in updates, right?

要 pull updates 真是麻烦死了，对吧？

92:20

Because upstream is changing and then you want to pull in and you've made all these changes to the co-base then you get merged conflicts

因为 upstream 一直在变，然后你想 pull 进来，可你已经对 codebase 做了这么多改动，然后就会遇到 merge conflicts

92:27

so

所以

92:28

We've said you know what if you want to maintain a fork

我们就说了，你知道吗，如果你想维护一个 fork

92:32

And you want that fork to be maintainable over time and to be able to pull in updates

而且你希望那个 fork 能长期可维护，并且能 pull in updates

92:36

We're going to do all these things on our side to try to minimize the amount of changes and make sure we ship migrations and

我们会在我们这边做所有这些事情，尽量把改动量降到最低，并确保我们发布 migrations 和

92:44

Keep a good change log that identifies breaking changes every breaking change even if it's not like

维护一个好的 change log，把每一个 breaking change 都标出来，哪怕它不像是

92:49

Migration for the database. It will come with some kind of migration for your project. So saying

database 的 migration。它会带着某种针对你项目的 migration。所以说

92:54

Maybe it's a skill. Maybe it's a little read me that explains what the change was and what you got to do to

也许它是一种 skill。也许它是一个小小的 read me，解释这次改动是什么，以及你得做什么来

92:59

Maintain it and resolve conflicts

维护它、解决冲突

93:01

But then also saying if you want to customize the code base and add all kinds of custom functionality

但然后也要说，如果你想自定义 code base，加各种 custom functionality

93:09

Don't just go wild in the code base make

别只是在 code base 里乱来，要

93:13

Do modular maintainable changes. So what that means is add files right that add functionality and then have small integration points

做 modular、maintainable 的改动。意思就是加文件，对吧，这些文件加功能，然后留一些小的 integration points

93:22

Where you kind of create your own little hook in the code where you're integrating but keep it a really small hook

在那里你有点像在代码里做自己的小 hook，用来集成，但这个 hook 要保持得非常小

93:28

That's just two or three lines of importing a function and then wiring it in one specific place

那其实就是 import 一个 function，然后在某个特定地方把它接进去，也就两三行

93:34

So by keeping

所以通过保持

93:35

added files, but then for the upstream files. I keep really minimal

新增的文件，但对于 upstream 文件，我保持得非常精简

93:40

Integration surface that minimizes merge conflicts and then

integration surface 要能最小化 merge conflicts，然后

93:46

every

每一个

93:47

New capability you want to add to your project create a little skill that documents what you added and how you added it

你想往项目里加的新 capability，就创建一个小的 skill，记录你加了什么以及是怎么加的

93:54

And create that skills should also have with it tests

而且创建的那个 skill 也应该配套有 tests

93:58

That don't necessarily test the code of the capability

这些 tests 不一定测试这个 capability 的 code

94:03

But or just test the integration. So like you want to write tests for your own code

但或者就只是 test 一下 integration。所以就像你想给自己的代码写 tests 一样

94:06

That's great

那挺好的

94:07

But part of this sort of the contract if you want your fork to be maintainable

但如果你想让自己的 fork 是可维护的，这算是这种约定的一部分

94:11

have a test for every single integration point

每一个 integration point 都要有一个 test

94:14

And it's got to be some kind of sometimes the tests are like proper tests that are kind of testing functionality end to end

而且它得是某种……有时候 tests 就像正规的 tests，是在做 end to end 的功能测试

94:20

Sometimes if it's can be tested end to end and just have a test that like

有时候如果它能被 end to end 地测试，就只要有一个 test，像是

94:24

AST looks if something exists in the code so that if I pull an upstream changes and

AST 会检查某个东西是否存在于代码里，这样如果我 pull 了 upstream 的 changes，然后

94:31

This thing gets wiped out by an upstream merge conflict

这个东西就会被 upstream 的 merge conflict 干掉

94:35

I've got a test that's going to go red and tell me hey that thing got removed and then I can rerun the recipe that explains the

我有一个 test，它会变红，然后告诉我：嘿，那个东西被移除了，然后我就可以重新跑那个 recipe，它会解释

94:41

skill that explains how I customize it

这个 skill，它解释了我是怎么定制它的

94:46

And then have one meta skill which we're calling a recipe

然后再有一个 meta skill，我们把它叫做 recipe

94:50

That just lists the different skills that are applied to the project and any kind of bigger picture things you did

它只是列出应用到这个项目里的不同 skill，以及你做的任何更大局层面的事情

94:56

So that you now have

这样你现在就有了

94:58

Documentation of your fork

你 fork 的文档

95:00

And you've also did it in a way where you probably won't even need to go back to that documentation most of the time

而且你做这件事的方式，让你大多数时候甚至都不需要再回去翻那份文档

95:04

You can just pull an upstream changes if things go really bad and they break you can always go back to that documentation and

你可以直接 pull 一下 upstream changes，如果事情真的变得很糟、它们坏了，你总是可以回到那份文档，然后

95:11

And we're building

而我们在构建

95:13

Yeah, so we're building all these customized versions of nanoclub not

对，所以我们在构建所有这些定制版的 nanoclub，不是

95:18

For enterprises in general per customer

面向一般企业，而是按客户来做

95:21

But following those same principles. So there are tens of thousands of forks out there

但遵循同样的原则。所以外面有成千上万个 fork

95:25

We're maintaining dozens and we want to be maintaining hundreds and eventually maybe thousands of forks for different customers

我们在维护几十个，我们想要维护几百个，最终也许是几千个不同客户的 fork

95:31

And that goes back to our factory

这就回到了我们的 factory

95:33

There's certain processes you need to do to keep those forks up to date and to them be able to build them into images and push those images out to

你需要做一些特定的流程来让这些 fork 保持最新，然后能够把它们构建成 images，并把这些 images 推送到

95:40

Customers accounts

客户的账户里

95:42

So that's our agent factory that we're building to build software in this different way

所以这就是我们正在建的 agent factory，用这种不同的方式来构建软件

95:47

That's trying to be a bit more AI native and leverage the full capabilities of agents

它想更 AI native 一点，并充分利用 agents 的全部能力

95:51

That's interesting

这挺有意思的

95:53

What do you um

那你怎么，呃

95:54

How do you keep it uh

你怎么让它，呃

95:57

I guess the easiest way to say is how do you keep it all together

我猜最简单的说法就是，你怎么把这一切都整合在一起

95:59

But you got more than you building this you got more than you customizing this

但你做的可不止是构建它，你做的也不止是定制它

96:05

For enterprises you have a good philosophy and a good

对于企业来说，你有一个很好的理念，还有一个很好的……

96:08

um

嗯

96:10

Process it seems but how

流程似乎是这样的，但怎么做呢

96:12

The question mark here I suppose is the agent keeping that agent

我猜这里的问号是，agent 怎么让那个 agent 保持

96:17

focused on your architecture

聚焦在你的 architecture 上

96:20

In how you described it. Hey, we're I'm just paraphrasing

就像你描述的那样。嘿，我们——我只是在转述

96:25

We're here working on you know customer xyz custom nanoclaw. Here's how we do it

我们在这儿做，你知道，customer xyz custom nanoclaw。我们就是这么做的

96:31

How do you keep the agent from not like going back to traditional ways? How do you keep them

你怎么让 agent 不回到传统方式？你怎么让他们

96:36

In your world and the way you govern things

待在你的世界里，按照你治理事情的方式

96:40

And is that a problem especially when it leaves your desk or your workstation and it goes to

那这会是个问题吗，尤其是当它离开你的办公桌或 workstation，去到

96:45

An employee's workstation who's building on nanoclaw for you or with you for a client like how do you keep everybody

一个员工的 workstation，他在为你、或者跟你一起为客户基于 nanoclaw 做开发，那你怎么让所有人

96:51

in the loop

都保持同步

96:53

And do you

那你

96:56

Do you actually do it well

你真的做得好吗

96:59

It's I think it's working pretty well so far uh some of it is is sharing contexts with people

我觉得到目前为止还挺顺的，呃，其中一部分就是跟大家分享 context

97:05

So communicating with people and and having

所以就是跟人沟通，然后，然后还要

97:09

daily conversations about how to build things and why we're building what we're building

每天聊怎么构建东西，以及我们为什么要构建我们在构建的东西

97:14

uh

呃

97:15

Review and code. I'm looking at code. I know that's a bit taboo in in 2026, but like I look at code and and talk sometimes about

做 review 和写 code。我在看 code。我知道这在 2026 年有点禁忌，但就像我会看 code，然后有时候会聊到

97:25

What you know a variable is named if it's something that's really important. It's on a critical path and we know that that's going to be

你知道，一个 variable 叫什么名字，如果它是真的很重要的东西。它在 critical path 上，而且我们知道那会是个

97:31

uh, a hotspot

呃，一个 hotspot

97:33

um

嗯

97:34

But

但是

97:35

I think for agents

我觉得对于 agents 来说

97:38

My my perspective is

我的，我的观点是

97:40

We need to be spending a big portion of the time. Maybe it's 50% maybe it's even more of

我们需要花很大一部分时间。也许是50%，甚至更多

97:47

Setting up the right environment for the agent

为 agent 搭建合适的环境

97:50

To be able to work effectively and that's not a one-time setup. It's going to continue as basis

以便能够高效工作，而且这不是一次性设置。它会作为基础持续下去

97:55

So meaning rather than just pushing code pushing code pushing code

所以意思是，与其只是 push code、push code、push code

98:00

uh

呃

98:01

Invest in the instructions and the context and the test suites

投资于 instructions、context 和 test suites

98:06

In the lints in the hooks in all the things that keep the agent on that straight in our path and um

在 lints 中，在 hooks 中，在所有能让 agent 保持在正轨上的东西上，嗯

98:14

When it comes to a project it when it comes to that philosophy of

当涉及到项目时，当涉及到那种理念的

98:19

Create the skills create the recipes

创建 skills，创建 recipes

98:21

um

嗯

98:22

It was an idea that bouncing around in my head for for you know weeks and months

这个想法在我脑子里转来转去，转了好几个星期、好几个月，你知道

98:26

And then

然后

98:27

Eventually and it's not that long ago a month month and a half ago

最终，其实也没多久，大概一个月、一个半月前

98:30

I said, you know, we're gonna go down this path of building for our customers the same way the community is building

我说，你知道吗，我们要走这条路，用社区构建的方式，为我们的客户构建

98:36

So we're really like tying our

所以我们真的像是在把我们的

98:38

Destiny in with the community and if this project doesn't working for them

命运和社区绑在一起，而如果这个项目对他们行不通

98:43

It's not gonna work for us and if it's working for them it's gonna work for us um and

这对我们行不通，而如果对他们行得通，那对我们也会行得通，嗯，而且

98:48

Be part of that process was saying okay

参与这个过程的一部分，就是在说：好吧

98:50

I have this idea of how you can customize in a way that isn't gonna be a pain in the ass too

我有个想法，关于你可以怎么 customize，用一种也不会那么让人头疼的方式

98:55

To keep updating and we're gonna try to do that ourselves and let me write this this up properly and commit it to the code

能持续更新，而且我们会试着自己来做，让我把这个好好写下来，然后 commit 到 code base

99:02

Base and push it out there and link to it and reference it in the cloud.md that's

然后 push 出去，link 到它，并在 cloud.md 里引用它，这个 cloud.md 是

99:07

Committed with the project so that everybody else is aligned on how to do this and hopefully they start to build in the same way

和项目一起 commit 的，这样其他所有人都能在怎么做这件事上对齐，也希望他们开始用同样的方式去 build

99:15

And that I think of it almost as like a contract

而我会把它几乎看成一份契约

99:18

Between us as the maintainers of the project and the community saying here's

在我们作为这个项目的 maintainers 和社区之间，说的是：这里是

99:22

How we're gonna be doing things going forward and we're gonna make try to make this work and

接下来我们打算怎么推进，我们会努力让这套东西跑起来，而且

99:28

if you guys want

如果你们想

99:30

To

要

99:31

Have some level of commitment from our side to to not breaking your fork

让我们这边做出一定程度的承诺，不破坏你们的 fork

99:37

Then you got to follow, you know the set of things

那你们就得遵循，你知道的，那一套东西

99:39

But it's kind of a mutual responsibility you guys follow this side will do our part to make sure we're we're developing in the same way

但这算是一种相互的责任：你们照着做，我们这边也会尽我们的一份力，确保我们是用同样的方式在开发

99:47

And it seems to be working so far

而且到目前为止看起来还挺管用

99:50

Should we check back in in like six months? Yeah, right

我们要不要大概六个月后再回来看看？对，没错

99:54

Well, that's cool. So I mean, it's it's uh, it's burgeoning this this new movement of

嗯，这挺酷的。所以我是说，它、它，呃，这个这个新潮流正在兴起，就是

99:59

skills recipes

100:01

I mean, that's not the way it was for open source

我是说，open source 可不是这样的

100:03

You've said that before that if you're going to contribute a skill not not code

你之前说过，如果你要贡献的是一个 skill，而不是、而不是代码

100:07

But this idea of having many

但这个想法是，要有很多

100:09

Forks customized versions of nano cloth or enterprise you're building for

Forks、定制版本的 nano cloth，或者你正在为其构建的 enterprise

100:14

You know as you're saying that I was just thinking to myself okay, so you're you're tethered to the open source version the community uses

你知道，你这么说的时候，我就在心里想，好吧，所以你、你是被绑在社区使用的 open source 版本上的

100:23

And if it's not working for them, it's not working for you or it you know that there's a symbiosis there. That's happening

而如果它对他们不奏效，那对你也不奏效，或者说，你知道，这里面有一种共生关系。正在发生

100:29

What do you think it's kind of interesting

你怎么看？这还挺有意思的

100:32

Yeah, I do think about going back to the open source model

是啊，我确实会考虑回到 open source model

100:36

Uh

呃

100:38

I'm trying to think about it in a way where

我在试着用一种方式来看待这件事，就是

100:41

I don't want it to be an extractive relationship like there's two entities here. There's there's a project and it it is

我不希望它变成一种榨取式的关系，就像这里有两个实体。有一个项目，而它……

100:47

You know legally uh owned by by our company nano co but it is its own thing. It has a community

你知道，法律上，呃，它是由我们公司 nano co 拥有的，但它本身是独立的东西。它有一个社区

100:54

Um, and it's got a user base and it's got its own identity

嗯，而且它有用户群，也有自己的身份

100:58

And that's a separate thing that stands kind of on its own separate from the company

而那是另一个东西，某种程度上是独立存在的，和公司是分开的

101:03

And then I want the relationship between the two of them to be a

然后我希望他们两者之间的关系是一种

101:07

symbiotic mutually beneficial relationship

共生、互惠互利的关系

101:10

Um, and I don't want the company and trying intentionally to not build a company in a way where it's extractive and kind of mining this community

嗯，而且我不希望公司——会有意地不以一种榨取式、有点像在挖这个社区的方式去建公司

101:17

And the project for for the value that that that's in it but instead building its own value

以及为了这个项目里所蕴含的价值，但相反，是去建立它自己的价值

101:23

But in a way that as the open source project succeeds and the community grows

但是以这样一种方式：随着 open source 项目成功、社区壮大

101:29

Uh, that benefits nano co the company by you know people knowing about it name recognition validation

呃，这会惠及 nano co 这家公司，因为你知道，人们知道它、有知名度、认可

101:37

um

嗯

101:38

Driving uh people who who then say hey can you guys help me set this up for my company

带来，呃，那些人，然后他们会说，嘿，你们能帮我把它在我公司里搭起来吗

101:43

uh, so that kind of inbound uh funnel

呃，所以那种 inbound 呃 funnel

101:46

And then on the other side as nano co succeeds and we continue to build our team and develop

然后另一方面，随着 nano co 成功，我们继续搭建团队、继续开发

101:51

We're going to be able to build the project better maintain it better um over time and I think the best open source projects

我们就能把项目做得更好、维护得更好，嗯，随着时间推移；而且我觉得最好的 open source 项目

101:59

In in the long run. I wouldn't say best. There's there are great small projects but projects that

从长期来看。我不会说是最好。确实有一些很棒的小项目，但那些

102:06

Have have made a real impact have longevity um have big user bases

真正产生了影响、有长久生命力，嗯，有很大用户群的项目

102:12

Uh, that continue to succeed in flourishing the long term they do seem to be connected to a very successful commercial

呃，那些能长期持续成功、繁荣发展的，它们似乎确实都跟一个非常成功的商业

102:21

Uh, business that that is funding it and mutating it

呃，企业，那个在资助它、也在让它不断演变

102:25

Yeah, I mean because you got to fund the the future of it

是啊，我是说，因为你得给它的未来掏钱

102:28

And you're not taking code contributions right like

而且你们不接受 code contributions，对吧，就像

102:32

Do you not is it a role a policy like we do not take code contributions

你们不——这是不是一种角色、一种政策，就像“我们不接受 code contributions”？

102:38

It isn't really a hard rule it was kind of worded that way when I initially launched it

这其实不算硬性规则，只是我最初发布它的时候，措辞差不多是那样。

102:42

It was also like 40 hours of coding it was laid on something right. I was I was feeling kind almost like

那也像是 40 个小时的 coding，它是基于某个东西搭出来的，对吧。我当时，我当时感觉自己几乎有点像

102:47

No, everybody stuff. Yeah, yeah, I was like get off of my lawn. This is my agent

不，大家的东西。对，对，我当时就像在说，从我的草坪上滚开。这是我的 agent

102:53

um, it's said in the read me I was like

呃，README 里写了，我当时就像

102:56

You know it runs you can run it

你知道，它能跑，你可以跑它

102:58

But like don't run it as is that be weird. It's like this is my agent don't don't use my agent like fork it and do something with that different but um

但就……别原样跑它，那会有点怪。就像，这是我的 agent，别、别直接用我的 agent，fork 它，拿它做点不一样的东西，但是，呃

103:07

It that's kind of what it said in the beginning. It said no code contributions uh just skills and like okay bug fixes if you see security issue

它，差不多就是一开始说的那样。它说不接受 code contributions，呃，只要技能，然后像是，好吧，bug fixes，如果你看到 security issue

103:16

But no no actual source code changes now it's become a little bit looser because there are improvements to the code base that benefit everyone that make it more

但不行，不行，不能有实际的 source code changes。现在它变得稍微松了一点，因为 code base 有一些改进，能让所有人受益，让它更

103:25

Um, maintainable more robust

呃，maintainable，更 robust

103:27

Not everything is a bug fix. Sometimes it's added capabilities. I have this kind of um

并不是所有东西都是 bug fix。有时候是新增 capabilities。我有这种，呃

103:32

this kind of little equation which is like

这种小 equation，就像

103:36

uh

呃

103:37

lines

103:40

It's

它是

103:42

It's uh functionality right so when I'm looking at a contribution the functionality that it adds

它其实是，呃，functionality，对吧，所以当我看一个 contribution 的时候，它加进来的 functionality

103:49

Times like the target market is a super niche or or um, I would say not function on utility times like

有时候呢，target market 是个超级 niche，或者或者，呃，我会说不是从功能或 utility 来看，有时候像

103:59

target market how broad it is

target market 有多广

104:01

divided by lines of code

除以 lines of code

104:03

so

所以

104:05

And that that's got to be maximized

而这个，这个必须被最大化

104:07

So if you're making a really small you know change and it's bringing a lot of utility for a lot of people

所以如果你做的是一个非常小的，你知道的，改动，但它给很多人带来了很多 utility

104:13

That's awesome

那就太棒了

104:14

And then you got to play around with those and try to make sure that you're not adding like

然后你得拿这些来玩一玩，尽量确保你不会加上像

104:18

500 lines of code to handle some even if it's like it's a bug right and you found it and you identified and reported it and it's reproducible

500 行代码来处理某些东西，哪怕它只是个 bug，对吧，而且你发现了它，你定位了它，报告了它，而且它是 reproducible 的

104:26

But if this bug takes 500 lines of code to fix and it's affecting like a tiny like you're three and three other people

但如果这个 bug 要花 500 行代码来修，而且它影响的范围很小，比如就你和其他三个人

104:33

We're not gonna merge into the code base

我们不会把它 merge 到 code base 里

104:35

I just fix it on your own fork and the other three people can also fix it on their forks

我就在你自己的 fork 上修，其他三个人也可以在他们自己的 fork 上修

104:44

Well friends, I'm here with the CTO of build kite and one of the most challenging

好吧朋友们，我现在和 build kite 的 CTO 在一起，而其中一个最具挑战性的

104:48

Problems of modern era software development is continuous integration and continuous delivery and so

现代软件开发的 problem 就是 continuous integration 和 continuous delivery，所以

104:55

Lockland Donald build kite CTO

Lockland Donald，build kite 的 CTO

104:58

What are you thinking about today's teams the challenges they face the speeds at which they're developing new features new code

对于现在的团队、他们面临的挑战，以及他们开发新 features、新 code 的速度，你是怎么想的？

105:07

It is just overwhelming. How do you all think about that?

这简直让人应接不暇。你们大家怎么看这件事？

105:09

Such a good question is the question everyone's asking right now all of our big customers are asking us at the minute like you know

这问题问得太好了，这就是现在每个人都在问的问题，我们所有大客户此刻都在问我们，你知道的

105:15

If we five or 10x are three put this year or a thousand exit what breaks and when and you know my answer is

如果我们今年 5x 或 10x 我们的 throughput，或者 1000x 它，那什么会坏、什么时候坏，你知道，我的答案是

105:23

Kind of same as it's been for the past 20 years

差不多跟过去 20 年一样

105:26

Which is that the bottleneck is still trying to integrate those code changes in and then

也就是，bottleneck 仍然在于试着把那些 code changes integrate 进来，然后

105:31

Deploy them and check they work and then keep them working as you keep throwing more and more code at it

deploy 它们，检查它们能不能工作，然后在你不断往里面扔越来越多 code 的同时，让它们一直正常工作

105:37

I think a lot of the fundamentals are the same but we're just a thousand xing the speed of it and you know that changes nearly every variable

我觉得很多 fundamentals 都还是一样的，只不过我们只是把它的速度 1000x 了，你知道，这几乎改变了每一个 variable

105:44

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so we're where does build kite thrive?

对，当然。好，那，Buildkite 在哪里最能如鱼得水？

105:49

What particular type of team or enterprise do you thrive in?

具体是哪种团队或企业，你们最能如鱼得水？

105:54

The area that build kite is always thrived in is is like this like fastest moving tech companies of the world

Buildkite 一直最如鱼得水的领域，差不多就是这种，全球跑得最快的 tech companies。

106:00

Like we've been disproportionately successful in that small niche

就是我们在那个很小的细分市场里，成功得格外突出。

106:03

They're kind of Shopify class Uber class, you know open AI class of

他们有点像 Shopify 级、Uber 级，你知道，OpenAI 级的那种

106:09

Fakes that have this key problem around iterating really really fast

公司/团队，它们有个核心问题，就是要非常非常快地迭代

106:13

And you know that the thing about all of those fakes is they all have subtly different needs subtly different problems

而且你知道，所有这些公司/团队的特点是，他们的需求各有细微不同，问题也各有细微不同

106:19

And so we've tended

所以我们一直倾向于

106:21

Historically towards building like really well engineered Lego blocks that scale like orders of magnitude more than what our nearest competitor does

从历史上看，我们一直朝着打造那种工程化得非常好的 Lego blocks 的方向走，它们在 scale 上能比我们最接近的竞争对手高出几个数量级

106:30

So you know, I think that that puts puts our system in this tension where you know

所以，你知道，我觉得这让我们的系统处在一种张力里，就是那种，你知道

106:34

You've got a spence of time assembling those building blocks that those Lego blocks to get the thing that you want

你得花上一段时间，把那些 building blocks、那些 Lego blocks 组装起来，才能得到你想要的那个东西

106:40

But the end result is far and away

但最终的结果，远远

106:43

More performant and scalable and the experiences better than what you get from something that's off the shelf

更 performant、更 scalable，而且体验也比现成的东西好得多

106:49

So I think we've started from a position of a really well engineered Lego blocks

所以我觉得，我们是从一个工程化得非常好的 Lego blocks 的起点开始的

106:54

And then are kind of working backwards towards kind of creating the thing that scales down to a startup that starts with one person and 10 agents next week

然后还有点像是在往回做，去创造那种能 scale down 到一家下周由一个人和 10 个 agents 起步的 startup 的东西

107:02

Well friends go to build kite.com. That's

好吧，朋友们，去 build kite.com。那就是

107:06

build kite

107:07

K-I-T-E dot com you deserve better C-I engineer for the frontier

K-I-T-E dot com，你值得拥有更好的、面向前沿的 C-I engineer

107:13

We are all facing trusted by the teams setting the pace again build kite dot com once again build kite dot com

我们都在面对，被那些定下节奏的团队所信任，再次 build kite dot com，再一次 build kite dot com

107:27

What stops someone from

是什么让人无法

107:30

Nano-Coin you

Nano-Coin，你

107:32

It's open source

它是开源的

107:34

great idea

好主意

107:37

This is all amazing. Let me just

这一切都太棒了。让我先

107:40

Copy

倒不是说你的公司，而是围绕一家公司复制你的想法，在 layer 之上构建

107:42

Not so much your company, but copy your idea around a company to build above the layer

就是类似 Nano-Claw 的那种

107:48

Of of Nano-Claw like

那是 open 的，对吧？你让它这么做，对吧？这不会改变任何东西

107:51

That's open right and you make it do that right that doesn't change anything

你会怎么想？你会不会说，嘿？这是我的赛道，Nano-Cosar 这事儿，我们拿到 funding 了

107:55

How would you feel about that? Are you like hey? This is my lane Nano-Cosar thing we got funding

我们有使命，有员工，有要服务的业务

107:59

We got a mission we got employees we got businesses to serve

但你知道，别人能不能

108:05

But you know can someone else

别人可不可以？

108:07

Could someone else

会不会有别人

108:10

Build their own

打造他们自己的

108:12

Services company just like you for the same user base

跟你一样的服务公司，面向同一批用户群

108:19

they can

他们可以

108:21

I feel really good about our position competing against a company that decides to just go take Nano-Claw and go directly down our lane

要跟一家决定直接拿走 Nano-Claw、然后直接杀进我们赛道的公司竞争，我对我们的位置特别有信心

108:31

Because you know we

因为你知道，我们

108:33

And it comes back to the brand like we are

而这一切最终都会回到品牌上，就像我们是

108:36

Nano-Claw right we're the company that created it we're the company that built it and maintained it we're the people who are building and maintaining it

Nano-Claw，对吧，我们就是创造它的公司，我们就是打造并维护它的公司，我们就是正在打造和维护它的人

108:43

And the legitimacy the credibility the trust

还有那份正统性、可信度和信任

108:48

That you can't just fork that right so

你不能就直接 fork 它，对吧，所以

108:54

That that I think is what we gain and it's not something that we extract but it is something that we gain from the open source project

我觉得这就是我们得到的东西，它不是我们榨取出来的，而是我们从 open source project 里得到的东西

109:02

The trust and I think that's huge now

这种信任，我觉得现在这太重要了

109:05

When people realize how central agents are becoming

当人们意识到 agents 变得有多核心的时候

109:09

They're looking at each one of the companies that are providing AI models and agents that we're not in going

他们会去看每一家提供 AI models 和 agents 的公司，然后会想：

109:13

Do we trust them in in the long term like deeply?

长期来看，我们真的能深深地信任他们吗？

109:17

and

而且

109:18

So I think that's super important the the community that's built the minister of foreign affairs of Singapore using it and Andre Karpathy

所以我觉得这超级重要，这个建立起来的社区，新加坡外交部长在用，还有 Andre Karpathy

109:24

kind of

有点

109:26

Tweeting excitedly about it

兴奋地在 Twitter 上发帖聊这件事

109:29

That that creates a lot of validation a lot of trust and then also we are

那，那会带来很多认可、很多信任，然后我们也在

109:35

um

嗯

109:37

We are

我们在

109:39

Building a team of real experts in building agents

组建一支真正擅长构建 agents 的专家团队

109:44

So the people who are joining the team the AI engineers that are joining the team these have tended to be the people

所以加入团队的人，那些加入团队的 AI 工程师，往往是这种人

109:51

At a company who are like the number one person who's like pushing for AI adoption in their company and they're doing the webinars and the sessions with everybody in the teams and the workshops about like

在公司里，他们就像是头号人物，在推动公司采用 AI，还会和团队里的所有人做线上研讨会、分享会，还有工作坊，内容大概是关于……

110:02

You know you got to move off of

你知道，你得别再依赖

110:04

co-pilot and like it's now you know cloud codes a thing and you got to start using hooks and you got to start using that and they're like up to date and they're posting about it on X and

co-pilot 了，而且现在你知道 cloud codes 已经是个东西了，你得开始用 hooks，你得开始用那个，他们很跟得上最新趋势，而且他们在 X 和

110:12

Other places so that person in the company

其他地方发帖，所以公司里那个人

110:15

Who then feels like

然后会觉得

110:17

The company isn't moving fast enough for them. Those are the people who have joined our team and we're building out this whole team of those people

公司对这个人来说动作不够快。那些人就是加入了我们团队的人，而我们正在搭建一整支由这些人组成的团队

110:24

So I think people can compete and you know it I'd recommend not I'd say

所以我觉得人们可以竞争，而且你知道的，我会建议不要，我会说

110:31

Try to pick a bit of a different lane on top of the nanoclaw

试着在 nanoclaw 之上挑一条稍微不同的赛道

110:34

But I feel like we have a really good position. We had a head start

但我觉得我们的位置真的很好。我们有先发优势

110:37

And and I think we still have a really good position

而且，而且我觉得我们仍然处在很有利的位置

110:39

But in the end of the day we have to move really fast

但归根结底，我们得行动得非常快

110:43

Execute really well in order to continue to

执行得非常出色，才能继续

110:47

Continue to succeed

继续成功

110:49

I'm really motivated to succeed because I think beyond just like oh we've got great agents and they could automate work really well. I think

我真的很有动力去取得成功，因为我觉得，这不只是像“哦，我们有很棒的 agents，它们能把工作自动化得非常好”这样。我觉得

110:57

You know the approach and the philosophy of keeping humans in the center

你知道，这种以人为中心的方法和理念

111:01

Um is and I don't think necessarily that things have to turn out that way. I just want them to

嗯，就是，我并不一定觉得事情非得变成那样。我只是希望它们能那样

111:08

So I want to I want to succeed for that reason to make sure that we advance the way that we you know we think AI

所以我想，我想因为这个原因去取得成功，确保我们按照，你知道，我们认为 AI 该走的方式去推进 AI

111:15

Should a you know should look in the world and work

是不是应该，你知道，看看这个世界，然后去工作

111:19

Um in the coming years

嗯，在未来几年里

111:22

You ask that question

你问那个问题

111:24

Not even as an adversarial question, you know like someone could

甚至都不是作为一个 adversarial 的问题，你知道，就像有人可能会

111:29

Be inspired and there's only so much

受到启发，而能做的也就那么多

111:32

Businesses that you can actually take on right like you got a finite amount of people to this point

你真正能承接的业务就那么多，对吧，就像你到这一步手上的人手是有限的

111:38

Uh, there's a certain amount of bandwidth. You can actually control his nanoco

呃，bandwidth 就那么多。你实际上能控制他的 nanoco

111:42

Uh, and the reason why I asked that question was like even me like I I've got people because of who I am or what I do and what I know

呃，我问那个问题的原因是，就像连我这种，我我手上有人，是因为我是谁、我做什么、以及我知道什么

111:50

um

嗯

111:52

Asking me to help them right and I've I've started a small consultancy. Let's just say

让我帮他们，对吧，然后我，我开了个小小的咨询业务。这么说吧

111:58

And it's really

而且这真的

111:59

People I know it's not like I'm trying to advertise. I'm not advocating people to reach out to me

我认识的人，这不是说我想打广告。我不是在鼓励大家主动联系我

112:05

To ask me to solve their problems. It's literally friends of friends

让我帮他们解决问题。真的就是朋友的朋友

112:09

That I know personally

而且是我个人认识的

112:12

They're a neighbor or I know their business or I'm a patron already

他们可能是邻居，或者我了解他们的生意，或者我已经是他们的顾客了

112:17

Or whatever it might be where I see they have a problem and I care about them as an individual human like an individual person in my community

或者不管是什么情况，只要我看到他们有问题，而且我把他们当作一个具体的人来关心，就像关心我社区里的某个人一样

112:24

And so that's sort of my

所以这差不多就是我的

112:26

My litmus on that and so the reason I asked as like

我对此的判断标准，所以我问的原因大概就像

112:31

I know

我知道

112:32

At least two people that want my help that's gonna be like Adam. Can you help me put nanoclaw my business

至少有两个人想让我帮忙，那会像是 Adam。你能帮我把 nanoclaw 放进我的业务里吗

112:39

And I'm not gonna turn into nanoco, you know, right? I'm not gonna stop on your on your lawn by any means

而且我不会变成 nanoco，你懂吧，对吧？我绝对不会以任何方式停在你、你的草坪上

112:44

But I'm gonna start growing similar grass right potentially in my quest to help these folks isn't my main business

但我会开始种类似的草，对吧？也许，我想帮这些人并不是我的主营业务

112:51

Am I trying to build a

我是在试图建立一家

112:53

Capitalized, you know services company? No, I'm probably more in that open source market

资本化的、你知道的，服务公司吗？不，我可能更属于那个 open source 市场

112:58

Where I want to leverage the tool you put out there free and open source for the world to use

而我想利用你免费 open source 放出去、让全世界都能用的那个工具

113:03

MIT license for all the reasons you did it and do the same thing you're doing with it

MIT license，出于你当初做它的所有理由，然后用它做你现在正在做的同一件事

113:07

But not at scale, you know, and so that that's why I asked that question is because you got more and more people

但不是 at scale，你懂的，所以这就是为什么我会问那个问题，因为你会有越来越多的人

113:13

Maybe even more people in the in the nanoclaw world

也许在 nanoclaw 的世界里甚至有更多的人

113:17

There are already users making their own agents using it themselves that people are saying hey can

已经有用户自己在用它做自己的 agents，然后人们会说，嘿，你能不能

113:21

Can you give me what you got are they gonna stand them to nanoco because they're a company probably not

你能不能把你有的给我，他们会把它们 stand 到 nanoco 吗，因为他们是个公司，大概不会

113:27

maybe but unlikely

也许吧，但不太可能

113:31

And you get in this kind of really weird world as I'm even telling you about this like this total remix like I know the fork

然后你就进入这种真的很奇怪的世界，就像我现在跟你讲的这个，像一个彻底的 remix，就像我知道那个 fork

113:38

Idea was invented in 2009 or 2008 when GitHub create itself

这个想法是在 2009 年或 2008 年，GitHub 刚被创建出来的时候被发明的

113:44

Uh, and the idea of forking a code base was a brand new invention

呃，而且 forking 一个 code base 这个想法，当时是全新的发明

113:51

Almost 20 years ago now like 18 plus years ago now

现在都快 20 年了，差不多 18 年多了

113:55

But here we are talking about you putting out a project used by tens of thousands of folks

但现在我们聊的是，你推出一个被成千上万人使用的项目

114:01

With humans at the center

而且是以人为中心

114:03

MIT the most permissively way the license and open source project

MIT，最宽松的那种 license，以及 open source 项目

114:08

You're building a company on it and you're advocating for essentially

你在它之上建立一家公司，而且你基本上是在倡导

114:12

And you're doing it you're forking your own project for the benefit of the customers you're serving the client you're serving

而你确实在这么做，你在为了你服务的客户、你服务的客户去 forking 你自己的项目

114:17

So like we're in this really we're we're like

所以，就像，我们现在真的处在这个……我们，我们就像

114:20

Everything literally now is a remix in some way shape reform right you're talking about upstream versus downstream

现在一切真的在某种程度上、以某种形式都是 remix，对吧，你说的是 upstream 和 downstream 的对比

114:26

And even me asking you about this potentially non adversarial approach to

而且甚至我问你这种可能是 non adversarial 的方式，关于

114:31

How can I actually add benefit to the nanoclaw world by helping my

我到底怎么才能真正给 nanoclaw 世界带来好处，通过帮助我的

114:37

My my neighbors essentially like not 20 not 30 not 50 more like three or four, you know that I'm helping out

我的、我的邻居，基本上不是 20 个，不是 30 个，不是 50 个，更像是三四个，你知道，我是在帮忙

114:45

How do you feel about that? How do you feel about the fact that that's

你对此感觉如何？你对这个事实感觉如何，就是这……

114:49

now a reality because

现在成了现实，因为

114:51

A while back you spent 40 hours straight

前阵子你连续花了 40 个小时

114:54

Going blind producing code to turn into nanoclaw

写代码写到快瞎了，就为了把它变成 nanoclaw

115:00

I feel great about that. I it makes me happy every time I hear about someone using nanoclaw building a business on it

我对此感觉特别好。每次听说有人用 nanoclaw 创业，我都很开心

115:08

Providing value getting value out of it

提供价值，也从中获得价值

115:11

I think

我觉得

115:13

Like I said earlier, there's so much value just sitting there heaps and heaps and piles of value

就像我之前说的，那里有太多价值了，一堆一堆、成堆的价值就摆在那儿

115:19

And when I see someone picking some of it up. I don't feel like they're taking it for me

当我看到有人从中拿走一些时，我不会觉得他们是从我这儿拿走的

115:23

I feel like there's just so much out there and we're all creating value

我觉得外面的价值太多了，而且我们都在创造价值

115:27

And I created a project and that created a lot of value, but you're

而我创造了一个项目，它创造了很多价值，但你……

115:31

Setting up a company with that project. You're then creating even more value

用那个项目来创办一家公司。这样你就能创造更多价值了

115:34

And I set up five companies and I've created more um we're focused on

而且我成立了五家公司，我也创造出了更多，嗯，我们专注于

115:41

Fortune 500 fortune 1000 large corporations. They have very specific needs

Fortune 500、Fortune 1000 这类大型企业。他们有非常具体的需求

115:46

I think we're really well positioned to provide this uh for them and

我觉得我们真的很有优势，能给他们提供这个，呃，而且

115:54

We're we're providing services, but you know I started building an AI native marketing agency

我们，我们是在提供服务，但你知道，我开始打造一个 AI native 的营销机构

115:59

So the whole idea is provide what would traditionally be a service

所以整个想法就是，提供传统上会是一项服务的东西

116:02

But then do it in a way that's scalable um and where you can

但接着以一种 scalable 的方式来做，嗯，而且是那种你可以

116:07

um

嗯

116:09

Where you can you know use agents automate certain parts of the process. So that's the approach that we're doing with nano

在可以的地方，你知道，用 agents 来自动化流程中的某些部分。所以这也是我们在 nano Co 上采用的方式

116:15

Co as well. I don't see it as

我不觉得它

116:17

Necessarily a services company. I think everything's kind of blurred now everything's remixed

一定是一家服务公司。我觉得现在一切都有点模糊了，一切都被重新混合了

116:21

So it's not necessarily services or I would say product company. It's an AI native company

所以它不一定非要是服务，或者我会说是产品公司。它是一家 AI native 公司

116:27

um the model is

嗯，这个模式是

116:29

Deploy agents in a way that looks like a normal service

以看起来像普通服务的方式 deploy agents

116:34

But then continue to maintain them over time and charge a monthly subscription for for uh for the agents

但之后要长期持续维护它们，并按月收订阅费，为，呃，为这些 agents 收费

116:41

um

嗯

116:43

I think in the longer term

我觉得从更长远来看

116:46

I'd love for you to first of all for you to do deployments with nano claw

我特别希望你首先能用 nano claw 来做部署

116:50

That's awesome. I would love to just on a personal level uh, you know give advice help in any way that I can

那太棒了。我个人层面就很愿意，呃，你知道，尽我所能给建议、帮忙

116:57

I think I need a company

我觉得我需要一家公司

116:59

I think yeah, I think it'll manage but um, but I'd love to just also just hear about get feedback from you get input

我觉得，对，我觉得它能应付，但是嗯，不过我也很想听听你的反馈，得到你的意见

117:06

I think if you do deployments with nano claw the community is now stronger because

我觉得如果你用 nano claw 做部署，社区现在会更强，因为

117:12

You're you know really serious person you know your stuff and you're gonna see some issues

你是，你知道，非常认真的人，你懂行，而且你会看到一些问题

117:17

You're gonna push back some bug fixes. You're gonna send me

你会反馈一些 bug fixes。你会发给我

117:20

uh a message you know a message uh at like three a.m

呃，一条消息，你知道，一条消息，呃，大概凌晨三点

117:24

Going like hey dude this thing isn't working and you know um

就像说，嘿哥们儿，这东西不好使，而且你知道，嗯

117:30

You're gonna you know request different capabilities and features

你会，你知道，要求不同的 capabilities 和 features

117:34

So um that's gonna make the community stronger the more people who have built real businesses and real services

所以，呃，这会让社区更强，越多的人真正建立了业务、做出了真正的服务

117:41

Top of it the more I know this is a community is gonna survive and it's gonna continue to continue to

更重要的是，我越明白，这是一个社区，它会活下来，而且它会继续，继续

117:46

To grow and there's more people in here and it's not just us

成长，而且这里有更多人，不只是我们

117:50

But with our you know 12 million in seed funding trying to push this community up a hill

但靠我们，你知道，1200万 seed funding，努力把这个社区往山上推

117:54

But there's many many other people in it involved building creating and and maintaining and invest it in it

但还有很多很多其他人参与其中，在建设、创造，和、和维护，还有投资它

118:01

um, and then

嗯，然后

118:03

I think that over time

我觉得随着时间推移

118:06

We're gonna get more and more requests from people who are building on top of nano claw

我们会收到越来越多来自那些在 nano claw 之上构建的人的请求

118:11

Around nano claw under nano claw, you know using nano claw

围绕 nano claw、在 nano claw 之下，你知道，使用 nano claw

118:14

We're gonna get those requests from them to provide some sort of support

我们会从他们那里收到这些请求，要我们提供某种支持

118:18

For them in different ways and at some point we'll probably do that. It's not the focus at the moment

以不同方式为他们提供支持，而到某个时候我们可能会这么做。目前这不是重点

118:24

But um when that pull becomes strong enough where we just feel like this is needed. We'll do it

但嗯，当那种牵引力变得足够强，强到我们觉得这确实是必要的时候，我们就会做

118:30

I think that the first step there will probably be

我觉得那里的第一步可能会是

118:34

um

嗯

118:35

Bringing nano claw to a specific industry. So what you're talking about with people who are focused on one

把 nano claw 带到一个具体的行业。所以你说的，是那些专注于某一个

118:40

vertical, so they're doing it for

vertical，所以他们是在为

118:44

the

这个

118:45

construction industry or for

建筑行业，或者为

118:48

you know retail and

你知道的，零售，还有

118:51

That would be people who know that industry really well. So they're really well positioned

那会是那些非常懂那个行业的人。所以他们非常有优势

118:55

To build out the agents and the skills and the instructions

去搭建 agents、skills 和 instructions

119:00

Um the connectors they know all the different tools and how to use them that you know the retail industry uses

嗯，这些 connectors，他们了解所有不同的工具，也知道怎么用这些，就是你懂的，零售行业会用到的工具

119:06

And they will

而且他们会

119:08

They're really well positioned. They also have the network already in that space

他们真的很有优势。而且他们在那块领域已经有人脉网络了

119:12

And they're connected with all the companies

而且他们跟所有公司都有联系

119:14

They're really well positioned to sell to those companies to support them to do the um

他们真的很有优势，可以向那些公司推销，去支持他们做那个，嗯

119:20

The go through the process with the company figuring out what exactly their needs are

他们会跟公司一起走一遍流程，弄清楚他们到底需要什么

119:25

um

嗯

119:26

But then they probably don't want to build their own factory to maintain a whole bunch of these deployments

但话说回来，他们可能不想自己建工厂来维护一大堆这样的 deployments

119:32

So I think the model will be they make the sale they sell to the company will provide to them

所以我觉得这个模式会是，他们负责销售，他们卖给公司，然后公司会提供给他们

119:38

An easy way to do these deployments and maintain it over time

一个简单的方法来做这些 deployments，并且长期维护它

119:42

Where it's kind of like a multi-tenant type of setup where we can give them access as a partner

这有点像是 multi-tenant 类型的 setup，我们可以让他们以合作伙伴的身份接入

119:49

And they can do really simple deployments for their customers and

然后他们可以为自己的客户做非常简单的 deployments，而且

119:53

They probably earn a lot on the front end

他们可能在前期赚很多

119:58

Of the setup fees and then

靠 setup fees，然后

120:00

Continue to get a share in the long-term of the fees for managing

长期还能继续从管理费里拿到分成

120:03

And they probably won't be much work on their side for continuing to do a little bit supporting management here and there for like

而且他们那边可能不会有太多工作，只需要时不时做一点支持性的管理之类的

120:08

Hey my agent

嘿，我的 agent

120:10

You know in retail assistant it got really dumb and is for getting things and they'll go in play the agent doctor and like

你知道吧，在 retail assistant 里，它变得特别笨，本来是拿来取东西的，然后他们会进去扮演 agent doctor，然后就像

120:17

Help you know figure it out and fix it up

帮你，你知道，把它弄明白、修好

120:19

But the more infrastructure type of maintenance will be able to do for them

但更偏 infrastructure 类型的维护，就能替他们做了

120:23

This whole conversation's got me thinking especially when you talk about

这整段对话让我一直在想，尤其是当你谈到

120:26

agent factories and

agent factories，以及

120:31

The nature of this towards business is like

这件事对商业的本质，就像

120:35

I'm not really sure how to phrase it, but just kind of where I'm camping on it

我不太确定该怎么表达，但大概就是我现在停在这个点上的感觉

120:38

And so you know entertain my idea here is the Linux of is something of it like

所以说，你懂的，先顺着我这个想法来：Linux 的……算是它的某种东西，有点像

120:44

Linux, you know, Linus tour holds back in the day

Linux，你知道，Linus Torvalds 当年

120:47

It was like, you know what? I'm gonna put this out there. That was the beginning of open source essentially

就像，你知道吗？我要把这个公开出去。那基本上就是 open source 的开端

120:51

or at least some of the earliest days of open source

或者至少是 open source 最早的那段日子

120:55

And you know people are like why would you put that out there for free and then if I could use it

然后你知道，人们会说，你为什么要免费把它公开出去，然后如果我能用上它的话

120:59

Well for the same reasons that you embody which is like I want the world to use it

嗯，就跟你身上体现出来的那些理由一样，就是我想让全世界都用它

121:03

I want the world to get benefit from it. I don't care. Remix is it army mix it myself

我想让全世界从中受益。我不在乎。Remix 它，或者我自己来 mix 它

121:08

And you know that's largely kind of how Linux became Linux and now we have

然后你知道，这很大程度上就是 Linux 之所以成为 Linux 的原因，而现在我们有了

121:13

Slews and slews of distributions and the fact that

一堆又一堆的 distributions，以及这个事实——

121:17

Linux exists

Linux 是存在的

121:19

And then a clock can exist because you're built on containers Linux containers

然后一个时钟才能存在，因为你构建在 containers 上，Linux containers

121:24

You may on a Mac installed Docker

你可能在 Mac 上装了 Docker

121:27

But that Docker container is running some version of a Linux distribution

但那个 Docker container 运行的是某个版本的 Linux distribution

121:32

Could be applying. I don't know what you've chosen. I didn't go into the lines of code and you can share it here

可能正在应用。我不知道你选了什么。我没有深入去看 lines of code，你可以在这里分享

121:36

But you know you've you've chosen Linux and Linux containers because you can spawn those easily

但你知道，你你选择了 Linux 和 Linux containers，因为你可以轻松地 spawn 它们

121:42

And like

然后就像

121:43

Thankfully, I don't know if this news is a big deal to you or not and maybe it changes for you

谢天谢地，我不知道这条新闻对你来说算不算大事，也许对你来说会有所改变

121:48

is Apple containers

就是 Apple containers

121:50

And the container

还有 container

121:52

Command line told is now available

command line tool 现在可用了

121:56

On any given you know M series

在任何一台，你知道，M series

121:59

Apple Silicon Mac which I think is just amazing. It's like WSL for Windows is now

Apple Silicon Mac 上，我觉得这简直太棒了。就像 Windows 上的 WSL 现在

122:05

Come to Apple and come to macOS and I tell you what like

来到 Apple、来到 macOS 了，我跟你说，就像

122:10

Like the audience may see me if they're on youtube, but they can't see me man

观众如果在 YouTube 上，他们可能能看到我，但他们看不到我啊，兄弟

122:14

Like I am smiling about that right the fact that we now have

就像我现在正为这件事笑，对吧，事实上我们现在有了

122:18

It sure we've always had Linux containers via Docker, but Docker has had some checkered past with

确实，我们一直都能通过 Docker 用 Linux containers，但 Docker 过去和……有过一些不太光彩的历史

122:26

rug polling licensing sure they're an open they're they're a for-profit company. I get it. You got to make money

rug polling licensing，当然，他们是一个开放的……他们是一家营利性公司。我懂。你得赚钱。

122:31

Nothing against them whatsoever

我对他们完全没有任何意见。

122:33

With that, but they've had some checkered past and having Apple support containers natively

话虽如此，但他们过去有些不太光彩，再加上 Apple 原生支持 containers

122:39

Has got to be exciting. So I'll get off my soapbox to say that

肯定很让人兴奋。所以我就别在这里说教了，我想说

122:44

I'm really curious what you think about the Linux of is

我真的很好奇你怎么看 Linux of is

122:47

You've got open claw you've got nano claw and maybe they're both claws, but they're not the same claw

你有 open claw，你有 nano claw，也许它们两个都是 claw，但它们不是同一个 claw

122:52

They're they're cut from similar cloths

他们算是同一类人

122:55

Gosh somebody puns here. I'm sorry about that

天哪，这里有人玩了个双关。不好意思啊

122:59

Um, how do you feel about this idea of like is nano claw the Linux of agents for business like

嗯，你怎么看这种想法，比如 nano claw 是不是面向企业的 agents 的 Linux，之类的

123:07

Have you put some thought into that? How do you feel about Apple containers? How do you feel about being built on Linux

你有想过这个吗？你怎么看 Apple containers？你怎么看构建在 Linux 上这件事？

123:14

Take take us into that that thought

带我们展开讲讲这个思路吧

123:18

I'll start with with Docker. I love Docker

我先从 Docker 说起。我很喜欢 Docker

123:22

They are invest they have invested in nano co so they invest in our cteround

他们投了，他们已经投资了 nano co，所以他们投了我们的 cteround

123:28

So full disclosure. I didn't know that

所以，坦白讲，我之前不知道这件事

123:31

Yeah, so we have you're not a hero lover then

是啊，所以咱们这儿……你不是 hero lover 咯

123:34

Uh, yeah, a big fan of Docker and especially if they're doing recently with their sandboxes

呃，是啊，我是 Docker 的大粉丝，尤其是他们最近用 sandboxes 搞的那些东西

123:40

Which you know, they're building for running agents and whatnot, right? So

这个嘛，你知道，他们做这些就是为了运行 agents 之类的，对吧？所以

123:45

Yeah, the you know, we had great investors in the c-round for sell invested a docker

是啊，你知道，我们在 c-round 里有很棒的投资人，for sell 投了一个 docker

123:50

Hugging face a CEO climb

Hugging face 的 CEO climb

123:52

He's you know part of the round so

他，你知道，是这个 round 的一部分，所以

123:55

um

呃

123:56

Docker, you know initially what's funny is that um

Docker，你知道，一开始好笑的是，呃

124:00

Nano claw actually ran initially on Apple containers. So when I

Nano claw 一开始其实是在 Apple containers 上跑的。所以当我

124:05

Launched a product a project

发布一个产品、一个项目

124:08

um

呃

124:09

It was whatsapp baked in and Apple containers baked in just because I had bought a mac mini

它内置了 whatsapp 和 Apple containers，纯粹是因为我买了一台 mac mini

124:13

And I had a macbook and I had been meaning to check check out Apple containers

而且我有台 macbook，一直想找机会试试 Apple containers

124:17

And then I was like I'm building this I need containers

然后我就想，我在做这个，我需要 containers

124:20

Let's give it a try and um

那就试试看吧，然后，呃

124:22

I launched it knowing that most people probably won't docker containers

我推出它的时候就知道，大多数人可能不会用 docker containers

124:26

But um in the readme part of the angry notes in the readme was also like

但是呃，readme 里那部分愤怒的备注也像是在说

124:31

It runs on Apple containers. Why? Because I thought it'd be cool um

它运行在 Apple containers 上。为什么？因为我觉得那样会很酷，呃

124:36

You know, what about supporting docker containers? It was like what just fork you know fork it and change it to docker containers and

你知道，那支持 docker containers 呢？就像在说，怎么了，直接 fork 啊，你知道，fork 它，把它改成 docker containers，然后

124:43

You know, I won't accept a contribution of supporting docker containers alongside. So it was very like but

你知道，我不会接受一个同时支持 docker containers 的贡献。所以那感觉非常，呃，但是

124:50

um the thing was after

呃，事情是这样的，后来

124:54

You know a few weeks there were thousands and thousands of people using it and everybody's

你知道，几周之后，有成千上万的人在用，而且每个人...

124:59

Most people are changing it from Apple containers to docker containers

大多数人都在把它从 Apple containers 改成 docker containers

125:04

And there was a certain point where I had to say okay. This isn't my personal project anymore

然后到了某个时刻，我不得不说，好吧。这不再是我个人的项目了

125:08

This is actually there's a community here and I need to be a bit more, you know responsible and and

其实这里有一个社区，我得稍微更，你知道，负责任一点，然后，然后

125:13

You know to that and the default the de facto container is docker containers

你知道，对那个，而且默认的、事实上的 container 就是 docker containers

125:18

It's what everybody uses everybody's run for many years. It works everywhere. So I moved it over to docker containers

这就是大家都在用的东西，所有人都跑了好多年。它在哪儿都能跑。所以我就把它迁到 docker containers 上了

125:26

They're now building docker sandboxes. They've got a governance

他们现在在做 docker sandboxes。他们有一套 governance

125:31

Great product there and we're integrated

那是个很棒的产品，而且我们已经 integrated 了

125:34

With their sandbox as well, which is like a micro VM we containers inside

也 integrated 了他们的 sandbox，它就像一个 micro VM，里面装着 containers

125:38

So and and yeah, it's I didn't have to I don't have like a contractual application to to promote them

所以，然后，然后，对，我不用，我没有那种合同上的 application 去，去推广他们

125:45

But I do like them

但我确实喜欢他们

125:47

In terms of the Linux

就 Linux 来说

125:49

Yeah, I totally see it

对，我完全明白

125:51

so my

所以我的

125:53

My brother-in-law is actually a rabbi and he

我的 brother-in-law 其实是个拉比，而且他

125:59

Has a group of of rabbis

有一群拉比

126:03

that are

那些

126:05

They have their own fork of nanoclaw

他们有自己的 nanoclaw fork

126:08

And they change the logo from a lobster to

而且他们把 logo 从龙虾改成

126:12

some other animal because lobsters aren't kosher

某种别的动物，因为龙虾不是 kosher

126:15

and part of their fork

还有他们那个 fork 的一部分

126:17

their distro of

他们那个 distro 版本的

126:19

Nanoclaw is that it doesn't like you do schedule tasks that run you know every day at a certain time

Nanoclaw 的特点是，它不喜欢你安排那种每天在某个固定时间运行的任务，你知道吧

126:25

So it runs those tasks, but then it won't run them

所以它会运行那些任务，但接下来就不会运行它们

126:28

Between Friday night and Saturday night because that's the the Jewish Shabbat where people don't work

在周五晚上到周六晚上之间，因为那是犹太人的 Shabbat，那时候人们不工作

126:34

So that's like kind of like Sunday when people go to church

所以这有点像周日，人们会去教堂

126:38

So they created their own flavor of of nanoclaw the only reason why I know about that fork is because that's

所以他们搞出了自己版本的 Nanoclaw，我之所以知道那个 fork，唯一原因就是那是

126:45

My brother-in-law happens to be using it and he didn't create it right so there's probably hundreds

我姐夫碰巧在用，但他没建对，所以很可能有几百个

126:49

Maybe you know, maybe more of these forks where there's a little tiny community that's gathered around the fork and is

也许你知道，也许还有更多这种 fork，每个 fork 周围都聚集了一小圈人，而且在

126:56

Building their own flavor of of nanoclaw and I so I totally see it Linux for sure

打造他们自己风格的 nanoclaw，所以我完全能预见，它肯定会像 Linux 一样

127:03

and

而且

127:04

That I think is the future of one one of the pieces of the future of open source projects where it becomes

我觉得那就是未来，是 open source 项目未来的一块拼图，它会变得

127:10

Distributed so it isn't just one project

是 distributed 的，所以它不只是一个项目

127:13

It's you know a whole bunch of forks and each one could have their own community

它是，你知道，一大堆 fork，而每一个都可以有自己的社区

127:17

And if you do it right, hopefully the forks can benefit the you know upstream the main project and the main project can push updates out to the forks as well

而且如果你做得对，希望这些 fork 能让，你知道，upstream 的主项目受益，而主项目也能把更新推送到这些 fork

127:27

Yeah, it's really well

对，真的挺好的

127:29

Yeah, because I mean

对，因为我是说

127:30

You know, this is your world more than it's I mean, it's our world

你知道，这更像是你的世界，而不是——我是说，这是我们的世界

127:33

But this is really like your world where you're building an agent factory. I'm using agents to build a factory. I'm not building an agent factory

但这真的就像是你的世界，你在建一个 agent 工厂。我是在用 agents 来建工厂。我不是在建 agent 工厂

127:41

And I think most of us are any of us who are building software sort of like building software to build software better

而且我觉得我们大多数人，或者说我们中任何在开发 software 的人，都有点像是在开发 software，好把 software 开发得更好

127:46

Which is the whole AI changes everything we talked about before and AI native so you start to question

也就是我们之前聊过的 AI 改变一切，还有 AI native，所以你会开始质疑

127:52

Okay, why can't use this because my agent has challenges with it or this isn't really agent friendly

好吧，为什么不能用这个，因为我的 agent 用它有困难，或者这个其实并不怎么 agent friendly

127:59

This can be far more simple whatever for any of the reasons

这个可以简单得多，随便吧，不管是因为什么原因

128:03

Do you feel

你觉得

128:05

like

就像

128:07

You know in the claw world. Do you feel

你知道，在 claw 世界里。你觉得

128:11

Do you feel like open claw is is the Linux of agents? Do you feel like nano claw could be the Linux of agents like what are your fields on

你觉得 open claw 是 agents 的 Linux 吗？你觉得 nano claw 可能是 agents 的 Linux 吗，那你的 fields 是什么

128:23

Something you're smaller than open claw. Obviously and maybe I'm wrong, but I think you probably are in terms of like

某方面你比 open claw 小。显然，也许我错了，但我觉得你很可能在类似这样的方面是这样

128:30

Especially lines of code. You're super small compare and comparison, but you're kind of like

尤其是 lines of code。你相比之下超级小，但你有点像

128:36

Not laser focused on the same user base the same trajectory while doing very similar things and being conflated

并没有激光般专注于同一个 user base、同一条 trajectory，同时做着非常相似的事，还被混为一谈

128:43

Just by the nature of using the the word claw, right? You chose these were claw because there was some brand equity to leverage there

就因为用了 claw 这个词，对吧？你选择这些叫 claw，是因为那里有一些 brand equity 可以利用

128:50

How do you how do you feel about open claw nano claw Linux of

你觉得 open claw、nano claw、Linux 怎么样？

128:55

Well, is it a winner takes all kind of thing or is it

嗯，这是赢家通吃那种情况，还是说……

128:58

You're all just flavors of the claw. I think it's pretty

你们都只是 claw 的不同变体。我觉得这已经挺

129:05

Conclusive now that it's it's not winner take all if you look at for example Hermes

明确了，现在它并不是赢家通吃，如果你看看比如 Hermes。

129:10

Yeah, that project now has like 200,000 stars. You know massively successful

是啊，那个项目现在大概有 20 万 stars。你知道，非常成功。

129:15

I think if you want you know evolving agents. It's changing all the time great project

我觉得如果你想要，你知道，不断进化的 agents。它一直在变，是个很棒的项目。

129:22

If you want an agent that just is is a bit more stable reliable

如果你想要一个只是更稳定、更可靠的 agent，

129:27

I think that'll close a bit better in that front

我觉得在那个方面会稍微更好一些。

129:29

Open claw

129:31

you know

你知道

129:32

We all kind of owe the whole claw

我们多多少少都欠整个 claw

129:35

community we owe

社区，我们欠着

129:37

You know a debt of gratitude towards open claw and and peter who created it because it you know was it did show what was possible

你知道，我们欠 open claw 和创造它的 peter 一份感激，因为你知道，它确实展示了什么是可能的

129:46

I think

我觉得

129:48

You know it isn't my kind of value system

你知道，这不是我那种价值体系

129:52

Wouldn't allow me to create a project in that way of

不会允许我用那种方式去创建项目

129:55

Just putting aside initially security and safety concerns and just you know going wild with let's connect everything and see what happens

先把 security 和 safety 的顾虑放一边，就，你知道，放飞自我，把什么都连起来，看看会发生什么

130:05

But maybe it did require that in order to get to that point right like maybe someone had to go and say okay

但也许为了走到那一步，确实需要这样，对吧，就像也许得有人站出来说，好吧

130:10

We're going to put all the security safety software quality

我们要把所有的 security、safety、software quality

130:13

Put all that on the side. Let's just see what we can do

把这些全都放一边。咱们就看看能做出什么来

130:16

And maybe that's part of kind of how you build now with AI

也许这在某种程度上就是现在用 AI 构建的一部分

130:20

For me that my my value system wouldn't you know wouldn't allow me to do that

对我来说，我的，我的价值体系，你知道，不会允许我那么做

130:24

I had to think about how do I do this safely? How do I do this in a secure way?

我必须得想，我怎么做才能保证 safety？我怎么做才能以 security 的方式来做？

130:29

but I think

但我觉得

130:31

There's definitely space for many I think for businesses

我觉得，对企业来说，肯定有很多空间

130:36

I think nano-clothes really well positioned to be to be the solution and

我觉得 nano-clothes 真的很有优势，能成为那个解决方案，而且

130:41

There's space for a lot of companies to take claws to businesses and to build all kinds of products on top

很多公司都有空间把 claws 带到企业里，并在上面构建各种各样的产品

130:49

We're positioned really well to take it for to the largest companies

我们的定位真的很好，可以把它带给那些最大的公司

130:54

And you know I

而且你知道，我

130:56

With all those sort of philosophical you know stuff about

带着那些那种哲学上的、你知道的、关于

131:01

About

关于

131:03

wanting to just share and let everybody build on it and all that in the end of the day

想要就是分享，让每个人都能在它上面构建，诸如此类的，说到底

131:07

I'm not you know building a nonprofit and building it's we're trying to build a very you know large successful company

我不是，你知道，在做非营利组织，我们是想做一家非常，你知道，大型又成功的公司

131:14

um

嗯

131:15

Relatively small so so that's sort of the nano company. It's like an AI native company. That's you know small for

相对比较小，所以，所以这有点算是 nano company。它就像一家 AI native 公司。就是，你知道，小，对于

131:23

For what it's doing but but in absolute terms. I think we're going to have to grow um and

就它正在做的事来说，但但按绝对意义上说。我觉得我们得扩张，嗯，而且

131:30

and

而且

131:32

Yeah, I just you know to close the loop on the open claw and kind of the inspiration from it

对，我只是，你知道，想给 open claw 这事儿收个尾，还有从它那里得到的启发

131:37

So I looked at the code base initially of open claw. I'd seen some security issues when I was setting it up

所以一开始我看了 open claw 的 code base。我在设置它的时候看到了一些 security issues

131:43

And I thought okay, I you know it's cool. I get the value. I want to um

然后我想，好吧，我，你知道，这挺酷的。我明白它的价值。我想，嗯

131:49

I want to build something that gives me that same value without the security issues

我想做一个能给我同样价值、但没有那些安全问题的东西

131:53

And then I went and looked at the code base and I saw how big it was and how messy it was

然后我去看了看 code base，发现它有多大、多乱

131:57

And I was like uh this I I'm not gonna spend now days and days trying to sift through this code base and understand it and figure out how it works

我当时就想，呃，这个，我，我可不想花上好多天，去一点点翻这个 code base，理解它，搞清楚它是怎么运作的

132:06

And I don't think anybody really understands it and has sifted through it and knows how it works

而且我觉得根本没人真的理解它、翻遍过它、知道它是怎么运作的

132:11

It's just kind of this organic wild thing that's evolved

它就像是某种有机的、野蛮生长出来的东西

132:15

Super quickly and you know became 500,000 lines of code within a matter of weeks

速度超快，你知道，几周之内就变成了 500,000 lines of code

132:19

So I said, you know what? I'm gonna start from scratch and just start with

所以我说，你知道吗？我要从零开始，就直接从

132:24

With a coding agent right with cloud code and

一个 coding agent 开始，对吧，就用 cloud code，然后

132:27

prototyping with it and iterating and brainstorming and architecting together

用它来prototyping和iterating，一起头脑风暴、做architecting

132:32

And just start from a set of capabilities. This is what I want

然后就从一组capabilities开始。这就是我想要的

132:35

And this is January so Claude's knowledge cutoff in January was like maybe

而且这是一月，所以Claude在一月时的knowledge cutoff大概是

132:42

June or July of 2025 so pre

2025年6月或7月，所以是在

132:45

OpenClaude so it means that Claude didn't know

OpenClaude之前，所以这意味着Claude不知道

132:48

Claude that I was coding with my coding partner didn't know that OpenClaude existed

跟我一起写代码的那个Claude，我的编程搭档，不知道OpenClaude存在

132:53

Um at when when we're coding and I didn't tell it that it existed

嗯，当我们写代码的时候，我没有告诉它它存在

132:56

I didn't say there's this project called OpenClaude and I'm trying to build a new version of it

我没说有个叫OpenClaude的项目，而我正试着构建它的新版本

133:00

I just said I want to connect this thing to my messaging app. I want to have scheduled tasks

我刚说了，我想把这个东西接到我的 messaging app 上。我想有 scheduled tasks

133:05

I want to have a persistent session

我想有一个 persistent session

133:07

I want to run and critically I want to run it in containers rather than just running it, you know bear metal

我想运行它，而且关键的是，我想在 containers 里运行它，而不是就直接跑，你知道，bare metal

133:12

and

然后

133:13

My Claude code

我的 Claude code

133:16

In that coding session didn't know that OpenClaude existed it was just starting from a blank slate and so built it by bit

在那个 coding session 里，它不知道 OpenClaude 存在，完全是从零开始，所以一点一点地构建它

133:23

It was like 500 lines of code to you know before adding containerization and then with containerization

大概有 500 行代码，你知道，在加 containerization 之前，然后加上 containerization 之后

133:29

It's like 2000 lines of code

大概有 2000 行代码

133:31

Today, it's quite a bit bigger with all the approval policies and a lot of the other capabilities

现在它大了不少，因为多了各种 approval policies 和很多其他功能

133:36

It also we support now codex and open code and

而且我们现在也支持 codex 和 open code，还有

133:40

You can run it with a llama and local models and and whatnot, but um and and now support like 15 20 maybe messaging apps

你可以用 llama 和 local models 什么的来跑它，不过，呃，现在大概支持 15、20 个吧，也许就是 messaging apps

133:50

So Slack teams discord

就是 Slack、Teams、Discord

133:54

Telegram, you know, you name it

Telegram，你知道的，你能想到的都有

133:57

But everything's kind of modular

但所有东西都挺 modular 的

133:59

but

但是

134:00

Yeah, it it evolved quite organically and

是啊，它，它算是挺自然地演变过来的，而且

134:04

It's you know becoming its own thing and and clause become a category and you know, I

它，你知道，正在变成它自己的一个东西，而且，而且 clause 变成了一个类别，你知道，我

134:10

Happy to be part of that category

很高兴能成为那个类别的一部分

134:12

Yeah, even as you're describing that category

是啊，甚至在你描述那个类别的时候

134:15

um

嗯

134:16

Because I'm not as steeped as you are

因为我不像你那么深入其中

134:18

In the you know, this claw does that and that claw does this you would use Nana claw in these ways and you would use OpenClaude in those ways

在，你知道，这个 claw 会做那个、那个 claw 会做这个这方面，你会用 Nana claw 做这些，用 OpenClaude 做那些

134:25

You know, or if you want this then you would use that

你知道，或者如果你想要这个，那你就会用那个

134:28

I feel like it needs to be like a claw matrix of sorts

我觉得它需要像是某种 claw matrix 一样

134:32

You know, that would just be helpful to anybody like if claw is the

你知道吧，这对任何人都挺有帮助的，就像如果 claw 是

134:36

Agent OS the Linux of agents. Let's just say like the claw right and you're a flavor. Let's just say claw is Linux

Agent OS，agents 的 Linux。就这么说吧，就像那个 claw，对吧，而你是一个 flavor。就这么说吧，claw 就是 Linux

134:44

Uh, you know in a in a comparison here and Nana claw is like

呃，你知道吧，在这里做个比较，Nana claw 就像

134:50

Ubuntu and or maybe open clause mark Ubuntu and then it calls more like I don't know

Ubuntu，或者也许是 open clause mark Ubuntu，然后它更像是，我也不知道

134:56

um

嗯

134:58

A different flavor, you know, I'm trying to like I use like three Linux's maybe four

一个不同的 flavor，你知道吧，我想说的是，我大概用三个 Linux，也许四个

135:03

I know I'm all but like I'm familiar with Debian Ubuntu fedora others

我知道我全都是，但就像我熟悉 Debian、Ubuntu、fedora 还有其他的

135:08

um

嗯

135:09

I'm trying to like do a great job here, but I'm not obviously

我是在努力把这里做好，但我显然没有

135:13

But

但是

135:14

That's pretty interesting to me is like is that the claw is kind of like synonymous with Linux and the various distros

我觉得挺有意思的一点是，claw 有点像跟 Linux 和各种 distros 成了同义词

135:21

Nano open

135:23

Hermes while it's not a Hermes claw. It still is what is Hermes is it it's a god. It's a I think it's a god and in like a Greek god, right

Hermes，虽然它不是一个 Hermes claw。它仍然是……Hermes 是什么呢？它是个神。我觉得它是个神，而且是那种希腊神，对吧

135:32

um

嗯

135:33

You've all kind of like operate around this claw movement

你们都有点像是在围绕这个 claw 运动来运作

135:37

And created flavors and distros that fit certain needs like you would use Debian if you got this desire and if you really want to torture yourself

然后创造出了满足某些需求的 flavors 和 distros，就像你要是有这种欲望就会用 Debian，如果你真想折磨自己的话

135:46

You know, you would use nicks or something else, you know

你知道吧，你会用 nicks 或者别的什么，你知道吧

135:50

If you really want to go to the like the uber Linux nerd way like I

如果你真的想走那种，像是超级 Linux 极客的路线，就像我这样

135:55

Don't install packages. I compile packages. Whatever it might be right. You know what I mean like

别安装 packages。我 compile packages。不管是什么，对吧。你懂我意思吧

136:01

That's kind of interesting to think about and I think the claw movement is very much so

这想想还挺有意思的，而且我觉得 claw movement 非常是这样

136:06

the Linux frasians

Linux frasians

136:08

Yeah, so I mean I guess

是啊，所以我是说，我猜

136:11

So we haven't shipped the binary yet. So we're

所以我们还没发布 binary 呢。所以我们……

136:14

It's it's just everybody's running it from source. So maybe we are. I don't know maybe we're the nicks

就是，就是大家都在从 source 跑它。所以也许我们就是。我不知道，也许我们就是 nicks

136:21

Yeah, maybe so. I mean, do you need a ship of binary? Can't I suppose your TypeScript and bun right so you could ship a binary

是啊，也许吧。我是说，你需要发布一个 binary 吗？难道不能就用 TypeScript 和 bun 吗，对吧，这样你就能发布一个 binary 了

136:30

Right, well, it so it depends the orchestration layer is TypeScript

对，嗯，这得看情况，orchestration layer 是 TypeScript

136:36

On not button. It's just TypeScript. Okay, but the

不，不是 bun。就只是 TypeScript。好，但是那个

136:41

The what runs in the container

那个，在 container 里运行的是什么

136:44

So the agent's environment is TypeScript bun. Yeah

所以 agent 的环境是 TypeScript bun。对

136:47

So it's kind of two it's kind of two separate runtimes is two two projects kind of

所以这算是两个，算是两个独立的 runtime，算是两个项目吧

136:53

We we at some point we probably need to split it up more cleanly as like

我们，我们某个时候可能需要把它拆得更干净一点，比如

136:58

Mono repo with two separate, you know projects in it, but yeah, there's the

一个 mono repo，里面有两个独立的，你知道，项目，但是啊，还有那个

137:04

The orchestration layer that handles routing of messages and spinning up and down the containers because they're not all up at the same

orchestration layer 负责 messages 的 routing，以及启动和关闭 containers，因为它们并不是都在同一时间开着

137:10

You know all the time they kind of spin up and then they decide all they go down

你知道，它们总是会启动，然后决定全部关掉

137:14

um

嗯

137:16

Handling the approvals handling schedule jobs, sending all of that that's all in that orchestration layer

处理 approvals、处理 schedule jobs、发送所有这些，这些全都在那个 orchestration layer 里

137:21

And then the agent's environment is just like the agent running in there messages being pushed into it

然后 agent 的 environment 就像是有个 agent 在里面运行，messages 被推进去

137:27

And they talk to each other through these two databases where orchestration layer pushes

它们通过这两个 databases 互相通信，orchestration layer 会把

137:33

Information into a SQL like database just pushes messages in and then the agent

信息推进一个类似 SQL 的 database 里，只是把 messages 推进去，然后 agent

137:38

In its environment has a polling loop and polls messages and sticks it into the agent. So

在它的 environment 里有一个 polling loop，轮询 messages，并把它塞进 agent 里。所以

137:43

Yeah, so it's it's um

对，所以就是，就是，嗯

137:49

I think yeah, I don't know where I was going with that

我想，对，我不知道我刚才要说什么了

137:51

But I suppose even SQL Lite 2 doesn't really have permissions

但我想，就连 SQL Lite 2 其实也没有 permissions

137:56

So you don't have to worry about like I know our hammer access right you just open the file and read it right

所以你不必担心，就像，我知道我们的 hammer access 对吧，你只要打开文件读它，对吧

138:02

And so for two different systems to you don't really want both the right to it that would be kind of bad

所以对于两个不同的系统来说，你并不真的希望两者都有它的权限，那样会有点糟糕

138:08

You can certainly wall it, but it still has some challenge with the rights

你当然可以把它隔离起来，但它在权限方面还是有一些挑战

138:12

So you probably should have one writer and one reader, which is what you're seeing you know the agent orchestration part of it

所以你可能应该有一个 writer 和一个 reader，这就是你看到的，你知道，agent orchestration 的部分

138:18

Is reading and while the orchestrator that's doing all the Linux containers is is writing to the database. That till it makes sense

在读取，而那个运行所有 Linux containers 的 orchestrator 在向 database 写入。这样才说得通

138:25

So it's actually yeah, it's exactly right there. It's a reverse

所以其实，对，它就在那儿。它是反过来的

138:29

It's two it's two databases for that reason. Okay, so it's each agent session has two databases

是两个，是两个数据库，就因为这个。好，所以每个 agent session 有两个数据库

138:34

So one the host the orchestration part is writing and the agent is reading and the second one the agent is writing

所以一个是 host，orchestration 那部分在写，agent 在读；第二个是 agent 在写

138:41

And the orchestration is reading and yeah, it uses a wall journal with like timeout and

然后 orchestration 在读，对，它用了 wall journal，带 timeout 那种，然后

138:50

You know, it's it's complicated because the you know the agents running in the container. So these are totally separate

你知道，这挺复杂的，因为，你知道，agent 跑在 container 里。所以这些是完全分开的

138:57

processes and

processes，然后

139:00

normal

139:02

normal mode of of regret doesn't work and

normal mode 的 regret 不行，然后

139:08

and

然后

139:09

You know, I had when I when I was trying out that mechanism because initially when I built not on claw

你知道，我当时，就是我在试那个机制的时候，因为一开始我构建 not on claw 的时候

139:14

There were like a whole bunch of different cues and there was like a cue for messages coming in and then a cue inside the container and a cue for tasks

有一大堆不同的 queue，有一个是收消息的 queue，然后 container 里还有一个 queue，还有一个处理任务的 queue

139:21

and it just got really complicated to do anything and then

然后就变得做什么都特别复杂，接着

139:26

I thought about this this thing of like what if we had this one share database and then that's kind of

我就想到这件事，像是如果我们有一个 shared database 会怎么样，然后那差不多就是

139:31

All the cues is just the one database like a message comes and I stick it in that database and then the agent pulls her from there

所有的 queue 都只是那一个 database，比如来了一条消息，我就把它塞进那个 database，然后 agent 从那里把它拉出来

139:36

And that's just everybody's one place

而那就是大家共用的一个地方

139:39

um and then

呃，然后

139:42

I actually did a lot of profiling of running lots of reads and writes and stress testing and trying to all the different you know

其实我做了很多 profiling，跑大量 reads 和 writes，做 stress testing，试着用所有不同的，你知道，

139:49

ways of working and then

工作方式，然后

139:51

settled on two databases one writer one reader and stress tested that and verified that you could get to like insane

最后定了两个 database，一个 writer、一个 reader，对它做了 stress test，验证了你能跑到那种夸张的

139:58

You know 10,000 whatever operations and you know bursts and whatever and

你知道，10,000 什么的 operations，还有你知道的 bursts 之类的，然后

140:04

It you don't you don't get corruption, but with all the other modes that I tried

就是你不会、你不会遇到 corruption，但我试过的其他所有模式

140:10

You get you get corruptions at some frequency where it's just yeah

你会在某个频率上遇到 corruption，就是那种，嗯

140:15

Yeah, well the beautiful thing is you've chosen

是啊，嗯，妙的地方在于，你已经选了

140:18

Again back to simplicity, right? You you chose

又回到简单性，对吧？你你选了

140:22

SQLite

140:24

You know that you couldn't get more simple than SQLite and you know you resisted probably

你知道，没有比 SQLite 更简单的了，而且你知道，你大概一直在抗拒

140:29

vectorization in a database like pgvector or postgres or my sequel like you just avoided all that

在像 pgvector、postgres 或 my sequel 这样的 database 里做 vectorization，就好像你把那些全都避开了

140:36

I feel like almost everything I'm building

我感觉我做的几乎所有东西

140:40

Is still running

还在跑

140:41

SQLite like there hasn't been a reason

SQLite，就好像根本没有理由

140:44

To go to a real database, you know and I say that with a tongue in cheek smirk on my face because

去用一个真正的 database，你知道，我说这话的时候脸上还带着半开玩笑的坏笑，因为

140:51

SQLite is awesome

SQLite 太棒了

140:52

Have you been consider and we're getting close on on time. I'm now we're into some technical bits. I'm curious

你有没有考虑过，而且我们时间快到了。我现在，我们进入了一些技术细节。我很好奇

140:58

Uh, have you considered

呃，你有没有考虑过

141:01

Turso and the reasons why they've decided to rewrite

Turso，以及他们决定 rewrite 的原因

141:05

Uh, SQLite in rust. Are you familiar with Turso is this new to you or do you have a

呃，用 rust 的 SQLite。你熟悉 Turso 吗？这对你来说是新的，还是你有……

141:11

Yeah, it's new to me. So yeah, tell me about it. So it's a rewrite in rust. Ah, let me see Turso

是的，这对我来说是新的。所以，嗯，跟我说说吧。所以这是一个用 rust 的 rewrite。啊，让我看看 Turso

141:19

Okay, Turso.tech. What is Turso

好，Turso.tech。Turso 是什么

141:22

Turso is an open source as SQLite compatible database written in rust

Turso 是一个 open source 的、兼容 SQLite 的 database，用 rust 写的

141:28

A list of developers creates millions of small

一份开发者列表创建了数百万个小型

141:31

File-based databases for AI agents multi-tenant SaaS applications and edge workloads

面向 AI agents、multi-tenant SaaS applications 和 edge workloads 的 File-based databases

141:38

So a lot of what um

所以，嗯，很多……

141:41

That I'm familiar with uh, glover uh

我熟悉的那个，呃，glover，呃

141:44

Is the CEO there for for Turso we've had him on the podcast before um

是 Turso 那边的 CEO，我们之前请他上过播客，嗯

141:50

a

啊

141:52

The biggest challenge I think that they posed with

我觉得他们提出的最大挑战，是

141:55

betting on and leaning on

押注并倚重

141:57

SQLite and if I and I could be wrong this is about a year back this conversation. I'm even paraphrase my from my own memory

SQLite，而且如果我，如果我可能记错了，这次对话大概是差不多一年前的事了。我甚至是在凭自己的记忆转述

142:03

was that

那是吗？

142:04

You couldn't call SQLite truly

你不能说 SQLite 是真正的

142:08

Gosh, somebody's gonna get mad at this

天哪，有人会因为这个生气的

142:11

Truly open source because the tests aren't open source

真正的 open source，因为 tests 不是 open source

142:16

And this is like the biggest issue with open source is like

而且这就像是 open source 最大的问题，就是

142:20

Every you know cve has to be open every this or that has to be in the open

每个，你知道，cve 都得公开，每个这个那个的都得是公开的

142:26

I say no to that right? I think

我对此说不，对吧？我觉得

142:29

Open source and we're kind of getting back to some degree potentially in philosophy here

open source，而且我们在这里可能某种程度上又回到哲学层面了

142:33

is that

也就是说

142:35

I'm giving you an artifact a product you can use

我给你一个 artifact，一个你能用的产品

142:38

Freely

自由地

142:39

This is a mean that you get access to the back channels

这是一种让你能接触到后台渠道的方式

142:42

Doesn't mean you get access to this or that so I could be disagreeing with Turso on these fronts here

但这并不意味着你能接触到这个或那个，所以在这几点上我可能不同意 Turso

142:46

But and maybe I'm even wrong with where their initial inception came from

但，而且也许我甚至搞错了他们最初的想法是从哪来的

142:51

But they wanted to they wanted to make it faster

但他们想，他们想让它更快

142:53

They wanted to write it in rust

他们想用 rust 写它

142:55

They wanted to leverage the SQLite kind of needs and be compatible

他们想利用 SQLite 那种需求，并且保持兼容

143:00

Uh, man. I'm so due for a refresh with glover on uh

呃，老兄。我真是太该跟 glover 一起 refresh 一下了，呃

143:05

On Turso while they made it but

在 Turso 上，虽然他们做出来了，但

143:07

This has sort of been in my back pocket as I'm similar to you

这个一直算是我的后备方案，因为我跟你很像

143:11

A very happy

一个非常开心的

143:13

SQLite user

SQLite 用户

143:14

I'm not trying to meet my database even more complex

我并不是想把我的 database 搞得更复杂

143:19

Because I'm trying to keep things simple until they have to be complex

因为我想尽量让事情保持简单，直到它们不得不变复杂为止

143:22

And while Turso is adjacent to that simplicity

而且虽然 Turso 跟那种简洁性很接近

143:26

It is open source. It is SQLite compatible

它是 open source 的。它兼容 SQLite

143:30

But it is not

但它并不是

143:31

SQLite now they have lips equal

SQLite，现在他们有了 libSQL

143:34

Which is like the lower-level rest primitive that he built

这有点像那个更底层的 Rust primitive，他把

143:38

Turso on top of and they have a

Turso 建在它上面，而且他们有一笔

143:41

Funding in the cloud and so they have their own inertia but I have yet to convince an agent

在 cloud 里的 funding，所以他们有自己的惯性，但我还没能说服一个 agent

143:46

That and I have like you I'm tantalized by the tech out there

这一点，而且我跟你一样，被外面那些 tech 迷住了

143:51

And I'm like I kind of just want to play with Turso. Please agent

我就说，我其实就只是想玩玩 Turso。求你了，agent

143:54

Will you just say yes this one time to allow us to go off the beaten

你能不能就这一次答应，让我们走一条不那么常规的

143:59

SQLite path and try Turso and

SQLite 路线，试试 Turso，然后

144:02

So far crickets they don't want to do it. They're like not man. That's stupid like

到现在还是一片沉默，他们不想做。他们就说，不行老兄，那太蠢了，就

144:07

So I don't know

所以我不知道

144:10

Yeah, I wonder if you know we're just everything is just going to become rust when it comes to agents at that point

是啊，我在想，你懂的，到那个时候，一涉及 agent，是不是一切都会变成 Rust

144:17

There's the you know bunnies now

现在还有那个，你懂的，bunnies 了

144:20

Well, I think they release a version or about to release

嗯，我觉得他们发布了一个版本，或者快要发布了

144:25

And I know there's re-rides of of chrome and rust and

而且我知道有 Chrome 和 Rust 的 re-rides，还有

144:31

I you know

我，你知道

144:33

I'll check out Turso. I mean I think

我会去看看 Turso。我是说，我觉得

144:35

With agents

用 agents 的话

144:37

I think there's the

我觉得有那个

144:39

I try to let them stay on their on their in their lane on the path they want to be on

我尽量让它们待在自己的车道上，走在它们想走的路上

144:44

I've spent like six months deleting these ridiculous comments that agents were putting in the code

我花了大概六个月，一直在删 agents 往 code 里加的那些离谱 comments

144:51

And then at some point I just said you know what if you guys want to get weird comments put weird comments like right

然后到某个时候，我就直接说，你知道吗，如果你们想搞奇怪的 comments，那就放奇怪的 comments，对吧

144:57

Maybe it does something for you. I don't know right. Yeah, so

也许它对你有点用。我不知道，对吧。嗯，所以

145:01

I stopped fighting and token waste that's for sure right

我不再跟它较劲、也不再浪费 token 了，这肯定没错，对吧

145:06

Yeah on the read and the right on the initial inference and then the you know even timing I think about that is like

对，在 read 和 right 上，在 initial inference 上，然后，你知道，甚至 timing，我想到那个都觉得像是

145:12

It's less about

重点不太在于

145:14

The messiness and more about why you just wasted an extra minute on this turn

那些混乱，而更多是在于你为什么在这个 turn 上白白多花了一分钟

145:19

And way more tokens than necessary to put comments. I don't care about maybe you care about them, but whatever

而且为了放 comments 用了远多于必要的 token。我不在乎，也许你在乎它们，但随便吧

145:25

I feel yeah, but it's like our then we have to waste cycles you know our brain cycles deleting them and and

我感觉，是啊，但这就像，呃，然后我们还得浪费 cycles，你知道，我们的 brain cycles 去删它们，然后，然后

145:32

And fighting them consistently to keep deleting them and then I just gave up

还得一直跟它们较劲，不断把它们删掉，然后我就直接放弃了

145:37

I mean to and I and it's I think you know

我是说，然后我，然后，我觉得，你懂的

145:40

Maybe they know something like maybe it helps them

也许他们知道点什么，像是，也许这能帮到他们

145:43

When they're coming back to that code gives them a bit of context things some sprinkles man

当他们再回来看那段 code 的时候，这会给他们一点 context，一些点缀之类的，兄弟

145:47

Like I don't know what they're commenting in your but I know a mine. They're commenting governance

比如我不知道他们在你那份里 comment 什么，但我知道我的。他们在 comment governance

145:52

They're commenting spec

他们在 comment spec

145:54

001 or spec

001 或 spec

145:57

0020 for example like that's the one that governs this function for example or

0020，比如，就像那个是管这个 function 的，比如，或者

146:04

This is actually from you know bug

这其实是来自，你知道，bug

146:06

001 or whatever number bug is in there. So I'm kind of revealing some

001 或者不管里面是什么编号的 bug。所以我有点在透露一些

146:12

Implementation details into my frameworks, but but it's called agent flow and agent flow is how I build

我的 frameworks 里的 implementation details，但是但是，它叫 agent flow，而 agent flow 就是我构建

146:19

everything and it governs all my governing and without agent flow

一切，它管着我所有的管理，而没有 agent flow

146:25

I'd be lost my project we lost every project uses agent flow

我就会迷失，我的项目，我们迷失了，每个项目都用 agent flow

146:30

Agent flows become a hive mind. It's it's absolutely insane

Agent flow 会变成蜂群思维。这这简直太疯狂了

146:35

But it's all about coordination and stuff like that. So my comments

但这一切都是关于协调和诸如此类的东西。所以我的 comments

146:39

tend to be not like oh, I like this and here's some random agent thought and it's more like

往往不像，哦，我喜欢这个，然后这里有个随机的 agent 想法，而更像是

146:45

I'm putting this here because this reference goes back to the spec that governs this piece of code or we hit this issue and it

我把这个放在这里，因为这个 reference 回溯到管理这段 code 的 spec，或者我们遇到了这个 issue，然后它

146:51

Causes this code review which caused this bug report which caused this pep

导致了这个 code review，而这个 code review 导致了这个 bug report，这个 bug report 又导致了这个 pep

146:57

This project in his proposal that's governed by this spec

这个项目在他的 proposal 里，受这个 spec 约束

147:01

You know for example, and so you kind of have this trail of

你知道，比如说，所以你大概就有这么一条 trail，串起

147:05

Issue bug code review agent work pep

issue、bug、code review、agent、work、pep

147:09

governing spec right this whole sort of audit trail of why does this exist?

governing spec，对吧，这整套差不多就是一条 audit trail，回答它为什么存在？

147:14

Which is the hardest thing for for people to you know in the vibe code world right

而这，你知道，在 vibe code 的世界里，对吧，对人们来说是最难的事情

147:19

Is to like scrutinize why does this code exist?

就是去仔细审视：这段 code 为什么存在？

147:22

Because I was crazy three months ago. I spent 40 hours on a weekend or on a Friday on my couch

因为我三个月前疯了。我在一个周末，或者某个周五，在沙发上花了 40 个小时

147:30

To the opposite of that which is well spec governed it pep and implemented it and there was a bug report against it

跟那个正好相反：它有很好的 spec 治理，走过 PEP，也实现了，然后还有一个针对它的 bug report

147:36

In the code review from two agents and then a pull request. So all this trail weaves back to

在来自两个 agents 的 code review 里，然后是一个 pull request。所以这一整条轨迹又绕回到

147:43

Intent it weaves back to

Intent，它又绕回到

147:45

Context and so an agent picks that up later on. They're like

Context，所以后来一个 agent 会把它捡起来。他们会说

147:48

Totally nowhere. I'm at if I have access to all that world. They just painted in this comment

完全没头绪。我就在想，如果我能访问那整个世界，他们只是在这条 comment 里画了出来

147:54

Well now I get to heck of a lot easier to grok why this code exists and for me to delete it easily

嗯，现在我要 grok 这段 code 为什么存在，以及让我能轻松删掉它，就变得容易太多了

147:58

Or augment it because we're our futures changed whatever it might be so I feel like

或者 augment 它，因为我们的未来变了，不管它可能是什么，所以我觉得

148:03

Yeah, same thing with you. I'm like comment away. Whatever. I don't care anymore. I'm doing what you got to do. Just make it awesome

是啊，你也是一样。我就想，comment 尽管写。无所谓。我已经不在乎了。我在做你该做的事。就把它做得超棒

148:11

That's it agent flow sounds awesome and and you know the people people want agent flow. So

就是这么回事，agent flow 听起来太棒了，而且，而且你知道，大家，大家都想要 agent flow。所以

148:18

I think they're out there and

我觉得他们就在那儿，而且

148:20

We'll have to talk. We'll have to talk. I need I need some I need some help

我们得聊聊。我们得聊聊。我需要，我需要一些，我需要一些帮助

148:24

I need some help on the front. I need a friend and say just do that. I'm just do it

我在 front 这边需要一些帮助。我需要一个朋友，然后说，就这么做。我就直接做

148:29

It's about packaging. That's probably the one I'm so close to I'll have to circle back with you because there's so much you're doing with nano

这跟 packaging 有关。那大概就是我离得最近的那个，我得回头再跟你聊，因为你在 nano 上做的东西太多了

148:36

Nenoclaw that I'm just

Nenoclaw，我就是

148:38

enamor by and

被迷住了，而且

148:41

We're in similar worlds like if you put agent flow on top of

我们在相似的世界里，就像你把 agent flow 放在……上面

148:47

You know, I'm not sure if you would call it a harness or not, but maybe

你知道，我不确定你会不会把它叫 harness，但也许

148:51

something right

有点道理吧

148:53

If you put agent flow into

如果你把 agent flow 放进

148:57

Nanoclaw like the world would just sing you know actually if you put agent flow in most things it would just sing

Nanoclaw 里，整个世界都会唱起来，你知道，其实你把 agent flow 放进大多数东西里，它们都会唱起来

149:04

But it's largely opinionated largely focus on software development

但它很大程度上是 opinionated 的，主要聚焦在 software development 上

149:09

Nanoclaw is not focused on software development

Nanoclaw 并不专注于 software development

149:12

You know could agent flow fit anywhere

你知道，agent flow 能适配任何地方吗

149:15

Actually, it could but I think a lot of it is kind of geared towards and govern towards

其实可以，但我觉得它很多部分有点是面向……并受……引导的

149:20

software development

149:21

So maybe I can pull back a layer and make a little bit more

所以也许我可以退后一层，稍微多讲一点

149:26

Little less focused on software only because it's really a way of thinking for me

稍微不那么只聚焦在 software 上，因为对我来说这真的是一种思维方式

149:30

I couldn't imagine running software without it like I would be

我没法想象没有它去运行 software，那样我会

149:35

personally totally lost like the very first thing that me and agent do

个人完全迷失，就像我和 agent 做的第一件事

149:39

Is we do research and that entire research project is documented

就是做研究，而整个研究项目都会被记录下来

149:43

It's not authoritative. It's not governing. It's all ideas. It's all possibility

它不是权威性的，也不起支配作用。它全是想法，全是可能性

149:47

It's all what's out there. It's not prescriptive. It's descriptive

它全是外面已存在的东西。它不是规定性的，而是描述性的

149:51

What does the world look like what is the world we're trying to build and it's all questions and answers but not

世界是什么样子，我们想构建的世界是什么样子，而这一切都是问题和答案，但又不是

149:57

This is what we're doing is this is what we could do

这就是我们正在做的事，这就是我们可能做的事

150:00

And so that is an artifact that gives me a chance to explore and unfettered and

所以那是一个 artifact，它给了我一个机会去探索，而且不受束缚，并且

150:06

drop every

把每一份

150:08

transcript from me and agent or an agent agent into there

来自我和 agent，或者一个 agent agent 的 transcript，都丢进那里

150:12

For it to then take and say okay from this

然后让它拿去，说，好吧，从这个

150:16

source of

来源，即

150:18

Facts not truth of our software

事实，而不是我们 software 的真相

150:20

What is our

我们的……是什么

150:22

Extraction from that that makes this feature of that feature or

从中提取出的东西，让这个 feature 属于那个 feature，或者

150:26

The blanket statement for why this piece of code should exist or this offer should exist like

那种笼统的说法，解释为什么这段 code 应该存在，或者这个 offer 应该存在，就像

150:30

That if I didn't have that to operate from I really wouldn't know how to do it and it all comes from the way I think

就是，如果我没有那个作为操作依据，我真的不知道怎么做，而这一切都来自我思考的方式

150:37

You know the way I think about how I even jot down ideas and stuff like that like

你知道，我思考自己甚至是怎么记下想法之类东西的方式，就像

150:41

Agent flow is very much a manifestation of

Agent flow 很大程度上是……的体现

150:46

How I think and so it's like Adam spring as an operating system. It's great. So that sounds awesome

我如何思考，所以这就像 Adam spring 作为一个 operating system。这很棒。所以那听起来太棒了

150:54

Yeah, that sounds awesome

是啊，那听起来太棒了

150:56

So I mean and it matches how we're doing software development now which is

所以我的意思是，这也跟我们现在的软件开发方式很吻合，也就是说

151:01

Anything that's in any way interesting it starts with an exploration phase where you ask the questions about you know

任何稍微有点意思的东西，都是从探索阶段开始的，在这个阶段你会问一些问题，你知道

151:10

What are the different what what's going on here? What are the

有哪些不同的——什么——这里到底在发生什么？有哪些

151:12

What are the questions that need to be answered and what are the

需要回答的问题，以及有哪些

151:16

places where decisions need to be made and what are the choices that could be made? What are the tradeoffs?

地方需要做决定，可能有哪些选择？tradeoffs 是什么？

151:20

What are the different possible paths and you go through that whole exploration and then we create our artifact

有哪些不同的可能路径，你走完整个探索过程，然后我们创建我们的 artifact

151:25

Which you know an HTML and artifact that has diagrams and visualizations and

你知道，一个 HTML artifact，里面有 diagrams 和 visualizations，还有

151:31

Takes it and tries to you know not like a eight-page thing necessarily but try to make it pretty condensed but just

把它拿过来，试着，你知道，不一定非得是那种八页纸的东西，而是尽量做得挺精简，但只是

151:38

Surface you know put into attention the

把你知道的提出来，你知道，把关注点放在

151:42

Parts that are worth having attention put on them, which is the decision points

那些值得关注的部分上，也就是决策点

151:46

What are the key decision points and you know what do you need to know about this and then we share it with the team and you know

关键决策点是什么，你知道，你需要了解哪些东西，然后我们跟团队分享，你知道

151:51

Get some other people to look at it and chat about it and then you go off and you know and that's that's really the

再找其他人来看看、聊聊，然后你就去忙你的了，你知道，那其实就是

151:57

the

那个

151:58

That's really the whole thing after that you just send off an agent to go and build what you decided

那真的就是整件事了，之后你就派一个 agent 去把你决定要建的东西建出来

152:03

Together needs to be built

需要一起建出来的东西

152:04

Yeah, I mean that that's I think the core of of the architects work now

对，我是说，我觉得那就是现在架构师工作的核心

152:10

Yeah, leaving things stuck in chat

对，事情就卡在聊天里

152:13

Or telegram or what's app or wherever like that's not where that should live. That's ephemeral

或者Telegram、WhatsApp什么的，那不该是这些东西待的地方。那是短暂的

152:18

That should be you should you should feel unencumbered to have a deep conversation

应该是，你应该觉得可以毫无负担地去进行一场深度对话

152:24

But knowing that you have a system behind you that extracts all the good stuff

但你知道背后有一套系统帮你把所有有价值的东西提取出来

152:29

Into the system that allows you to create artifacts that share it could be shared with an agent

放进系统里，让你能创建artifacts，可以分享给一个agent

152:34

It could be shared with co-workers

可以分享给同事

152:35

It could be shared with the client. It could be shared with whomever really makes the most sense but like

可以分享给客户。可以分享给任何最合适的人，但就是

152:41

Having that I guess you know that conversation and you said something earlier too with with the psychological change of going from terminal

有了这个，我觉得你知道，那场对话，你之前也提到过，就是从terminal过来的那种心理上的转变

152:49

And especially a developer gets this and like non-developers won't get this but going from a terminal

特别是 developer 会有这种感觉，非 developer 可能体会不到，就是从 terminal

152:54

To a chat app of sorts you feel like you're literally talking to something

到一个类似 chat app 的东西，你会觉得自己真的在跟某个东西对话

152:59

Versus trying to command the world like we've we've all been trained as developers

而不是像我们作为 developer 一直被训练的那样去命令这个世界

153:03

When I'm in the command line I am making I am you know, I don't know

当我在 command line 里的时候，我是在做，你知道，我也不知道

153:09

Doing things that are different than like talking to a human or talking to something

做的事情跟和人类说话或者跟某个东西说话是不一样的

153:13

It's not a talking. It's a it's an action. You're you're sort of like

那不是说话。那是一个动作。你是在，有点像

153:17

Making things happen. It's a whole different scenario there

让事情发生。那完全是另一个场景

153:20

But if everything is locked in chat and you don't have this artifact system that actually has a system that connects to each other

但如果所有东西都被锁在 chat 里，而你没有这个 artifact system，没有一个真正能把彼此连接起来的系统

153:27

That has governance that has not so much policy but but

那里面有 governance，与其说是 policy，不如说是、是

153:31

Taste and sense

品味和感觉

153:33

Then you know your stuff is just stuck in chat and that's not where it's meant to be

然后你知道，你的东西就只是卡在 chat 里，而那并不是它该待的地方

153:37

But when you have agents upon agents for every individual human and you got so many humans doing work

但当你为每一个个体人类都有层层叠叠的 agents，而且你有那么多人在干活

153:43

Gosh you got to find a system to get out of that to then create a memory system and in all these other things like

天哪，你得找到一个 system 来摆脱那个局面，然后创建一个 memory system，以及所有其他这些类似的东西

153:49

that's to me I think is

那对我来说，我觉得就是

153:53

Is where I'm most

是我最……

153:56

Uh

呃

153:57

What's the what's the right way to say like the most excited I suppose and that's probably not even not the best word

怎么说呢，怎么说才合适呢，大概就是最兴奋的那种感觉吧，我猜，而且这甚至可能都不是最贴切的词

154:03

Is I'm just so excited about what's possible there because you take this corpus

就是，我真的对那里可能实现的东西太兴奋了，因为你把这个 corpus 拿过来

154:09

You take 17

你拿 17

154:11

20 30 50 revolutions of that let's do research

20 30 50 轮那个，咱们来做研究

154:15

Let's create that HTML artifact in your world. Let's go then share that with people like you do that

咱们在你的世界里创建那个 HTML artifact。然后走起，把它分享给别人，就像你那样做

154:20

Over years even and you've got this corpus of information that now

甚至过了很多年，你有了这个信息的 corpus，现在

154:25

is

是

154:27

Is such an interesting substrate for the knowledge base of an organization which is one of like when you deploy an

是这样一个有趣的 substrate，作为组织的 knowledge base，而这是其中之一，就像当你 deploy 一个

154:34

Anoclaude you've got to be pretty particular about it

Anoclaude，你在这方面可得相当讲究

154:37

Because as this database grows

因为随着这个 database 不断增长

154:40

I don't know if you're keeping one as cool as database in prod or not

我不知道你在 prod 里是不是还保持着一个像 database 一样酷的

154:43

But you got to have some sort of plan right and you got so much growing and so much they can extract from that

但你得有个计划，对吧，而且你有那么多增长，他们能从里面提取出那么多东西

154:51

that it's uh

以至于这，呃

154:53

This this AI need of

这种，这种 AI 的需求

154:55

World we're in and marching towards and running towards in lots of cases

我们身处其中、正在迈向、很多时候正奔向的世界

154:59

Gets really really interesting

会变得真的真的很有意思

155:03

100% I mean, I think a lot of people talk about their

100%，我是说，我觉得很多人都在聊他们的

155:08

main assistant as you know the second brain

主要助手，你知道，就是那个 second brain

155:11

Just builds up this information. It's you know the LLM wiki patterns every bit of information you feed it it goes into this

它会不断积累这些信息。就是你知道的 LLM wiki 模式，你喂给它的每一点信息，都会进到这个

155:17

Type of Wikipedia, you know, you share with it some brain dump and it creates a Wikipedia article of what you share with links to other articles

一种 Wikipedia 里。你知道，你给它来个 brain dump，它就会把你分享的内容变成一篇 Wikipedia 文章，还带上通往其他文章的链接

155:24

that are relevant and then over time it builds up this

这些链接都是相关的，然后随着时间推移，它就把这些积累起来

155:28

You know all these articles and interconnected articles and it becomes this kind of graph

你知道，所有这些文章和互相连接的文章，然后它就变成一种 graph

155:33

But it's really you could think of it as a Wikipedia of you

但说真的，你可以把它想成一部关于你的 Wikipedia

155:36

And your projects and your world and your relationships and the people you work with and that's the this sort of second brain

还有你的项目、你的世界、你的关系，以及和你共事的人，而这就是那种 second brain

155:43

That knows what you know and knows your context

它知道你知道什么，也知道你的 context

155:47

And then in a company you end up with

然后在一家公司里，你最终会有

155:50

You know many of those second brains so each person in the companies got that second brain with all their information in context

你知道，很多这样的 second brains，所以公司里的每个人都有自己的 second brain，所有信息都在 context 里

155:57

And then you get the companies

然后你得到公司的

155:58

Brain which is this centralized place that some of these agents are able to you know push updates to and and

Brain，它是一个 centralized 的地方，一些这样的 agents 能够，你知道，往那里 push updates，然后然后

156:05

and

然后

156:06

Gather sort of the more general information that everybody needs to know and I mean

去收集那种更通用的信息，就是每个人都需要知道的，而且我是说

156:12

It's super interesting. You know, we've seen someone who went on

这超级有意思。你知道，我们见过有人继续下去

156:17

Took took a leave took maternity leave and gave their agent to someone else to continue their project

Took 休了个假，休了产假，然后把他们的 agent 交给别人继续他们的项目

156:22

And it's just like a project that would have had this whole period of offboarding and onboarding and it was just right

而且这就像一个项目，本来会有一整段 offboarding 和 onboarding，结果却刚刚好

156:29

zero downed downtime just full continuity

零 downed downtime，就是完全的 continuity

156:32

Yeah

对

156:35

I'm really interested in that and like

我对这个真的很感兴趣，而且就是

156:40

Just being able to have

就是能够拥有

156:42

To swap out even a model. Let's just say I've hit my fabled five limit

甚至能换掉一个 model。就假设我达到了我那个传说中的五条上限

156:47

Oh my gosh my world's collapsed. No

天哪，我的世界崩塌了。不

156:51

While code x five five or as of today five point six may not be quite fabled five

虽然 code x five five，或者截至今天的 5.6，可能都还不算真正的 fabled five

156:57

At least in my down and my context isn't trapped in fabled five that was my reasoning maybe even my higher powered reasoning

至少在我的 domain 里，我的 context 并没有被困在 fabled five 里，那就是我的 reasoning，甚至可能是我更高阶的 reasoning

157:05

But swap the model out the context is still there the mission still continues

但把 model 换掉，context 还在，任务还在继续

157:10

Nothing really changes. That's what I'm really interested in that

其实什么都没变。这就是我真正感兴趣的地方

157:14

Because when even with even with chat history I spent a lot of time like with anxiety of like oh my gosh

因为就算有 chat history，我也花了很多时间焦虑，就像，天哪

157:20

Like my stuff is all stuck in these chat threads that gets compacted that gets erased and

就像我的东西全卡在这些 chat threads 里，会被 compacted、会被 erased，然后

157:25

Like oh my that's why I got into this like I've got to extract everything but that was too much

就像，天哪，这就是我为什么会搞这个，就像我必须把一切都 extract 出来，但那太过了

157:29

But I'm really interested in that world where we can be where you can send Sally on vacation happily she goes

但我真的很感兴趣的是那样的世界：我们可以处在其中，你可以开开心心地把 Sally 送去度假，她就去了

157:35

Totally on the beach in a drink and my ties no stress whatsoever

完全在海滩上，喝着一杯饮料，我的领带，一点压力都没有

157:41

Meanwhile back at the ranch or back at the enterprise would be the better way to say that

与此同时，说回到牧场，或者说回到 enterprise，会是更好的说法

157:46

We're continues because the agent keeps the context

我们能一直继续下去，是因为 agent 保留了 context

157:50

And Sally's enough breadcrumps in her agent in her context loops and in her her second brain to allow somebody to borrow

而且 Sally 在她的 agent 里、她的 context loops 里、她的 second brain 里有足够多的 breadcrumbs，让某个人可以借用

157:58

With policy and with permissions

在 policy 和 permissions 下

158:01

What's necessary to keep that enterprise initiative going?

需要什么才能让那个 enterprise initiative 继续推进？

158:04

That to me is like the ultimate

对我来说，这就像是终极的

158:07

business continuity

158:10

Satisfaction if I was like CEO or investor somewhere like that's the world I want

满足感嘛，如果我像某个地方的 CEO 或者投资人，那才是我想要的世界

158:15

To live in as a as a knowledge worker as a business owner as an entrepreneur

作为知识工作者、作为企业主、作为创业者去生活的世界

158:21

That's what I want the world. Yeah, yeah, and I think

那就是我想要的世界。对，对，而且我觉得

158:25

it's just

就只是

158:26

You know the work working with agents, right? It just doesn't feel like work, right? It's just like you just like they're going off

你知道，跟 agents 一起工作这件事，对吧？它感觉就是不像在工作，对吧？就像你只是，就像它们自己就跑起来了

158:33

Yeah, they're doing things for you, you know, and it's it's really empowering for people

对，它们在替你做事，你知道吧，而且这真的让人很有力量感

158:38

I think you know, we're used to building right we're used to

我觉得，你知道，我们习惯去构建，对吧，我们习惯

158:41

Coming up with ideas and then you just

想出点子，然后你就

158:44

Get in front of a keyboard and make that happen

坐到键盘前，把这件事变成现实

158:47

For most people they don't you know, they don't they have an experience that of just

对大多数人来说，他们不会，你知道的，他们没有过那种只是

158:53

Thinking things up and and making it happen. So I think this is a huge unlock and it's just it's really

把东西想出来，然后把它实现。所以我觉得这是一个巨大的解锁，而且它真的

158:58

Really really profound for for people who you know get started with building with agents

真的真的非常深刻，对于那些，你知道的，刚开始用 agents 来构建的人来说

159:03

Well friends listen to this podcast go to nano

好了朋友们，听完这期播客，去 nano

159:07

CEO or nano co.ai and

CEO 或者 nano co.ai，然后

159:11

Hire the the folks that made nano claw to build it for your enterprise or to fork it for your enterprise or

雇佣那些做了 nano claw 的人，来为你的 enterprise 构建它，或者为你的 enterprise fork 它，或者

159:17

Customize a free enterprise and for everyone else

定制一个免费的 enterprise，还有给其他所有人

159:21

Go to nano claw.dev

去 nano claw.dev 吧

159:23

Free as much as a possibly could be and open source MIT licensed

尽可能免费，而且是 open source、MIT licensed

159:28

Thank you so much for being courageous enough to share that MIT and then still feel even after the fact no regrets like I

太感谢你了，你有勇气分享那个 MIT，而且事后依然觉得没有遗憾，就像我一样

159:37

You've given me a new a new

你给了我一个新的，一个新的

159:40

um a new facet to consider run up and source. I've been pretty

嗯，一个需要考虑的新角度，围绕 open source。我一直挺

159:44

sad. I would say like a pretty

难过。我会说，像是挺

159:49

Nuts. I wouldn't say like sad necessarily like just bummed maybe that's a version of sad but like some other

离谱。我倒不一定会说是难过，可能只是有点郁闷，也许那是难过的一种版本，但像是另一种

159:55

Adjective that describes sadness that isn't quite crying tears. I'm not crying tears not yet at least

形容难过、但还没到哭出眼泪那种程度的形容词。我没哭出眼泪，至少现在还没。

160:02

But I was really feeling down about open source and like the reasons to do it and how you know

但我当时真的对 open source 感到很沮丧，像是做它的理由啊，还有你知道

160:07

There's just so much threat even from a security threat like you got

就是威胁太多了，甚至从 security 威胁来说，你懂的

160:11

Tried and true to open source after that's not getting in a data with

久经考验、忠于 open source，在那之后也不会陷进一个带着

160:15

Security issues because their code is open right and you got all sorts of like inbound threats to

security issues 的 data 里，因为他们的 code 是开放的，对吧，而且你会遇到各种各样像是 inbound 的威胁

160:21

Anybody who makes an open source project whether it's commercialized or non commercialized

任何做 open source project 的人，不管是商业化的还是非商业化的

160:25

And that's just feeling pretty down about it, but I like your lens. I think I like your uh your altruistic

而那真的让我挺沮丧的，但我喜欢你的视角。我想我喜欢你那个，呃，你那种利他的

160:30

Tenancies when it comes to why you chose to do it initially and then why you haven't regretted it

倾向，说到你最初为什么选择做它，以及后来为什么没有后悔

160:35

As part of and actually weaved it into the fabric of

作为其中一部分，而且其实把它编织进了……的肌理里

160:39

Your your business plan to to use it as a

你的、你的商业计划，去、去把它当作一个

160:43

As a benefit not a and Achilles heel in any way shape performance so cool

作为一种优势，而不是以任何方式、任何形态成为 Achilles heel，performance 太酷了

160:47

So friends go to those two places

所以朋友们，去那两个地方

160:50

Gabrielle, thank you so much for coming on the pod man and sharing just uh

Gabrielle，非常感谢你来上播客，老兄，还分享了，呃

160:54

Your agent thinking man your your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed this conversation so much. Appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you

你对 agent 的思考，老兄，你的、你的想法。我真的很感激。我太喜欢这次对话了。感谢你。谢谢。谢谢

161:04

Okay, this is the end you made it you've arrived

好了，这就是结尾，你做到了，你到了

161:08

This is the show where you can come for great deep conversations about the changing environments

这就是那个节目，你可以来听关于不断变化的环境的精彩深度对话

161:13

We're all in the embracing of this agent culture the agentic world. We're all living in the

我们都在拥抱这种 agent culture，这个 agentic 世界。我们都生活在

161:19

Re-platforming of our entire industry as we speak

就在我们说话的当下，我们整个行业正在 Re-platforming

161:22

I'm both terrified and exhilarated at the exact same time. I don't know about you

我同时感到恐惧又兴奋。不知道你是不是也这样

161:28

Maybe that's true for you too

也许你也有同感

161:29

You tell me and the easy way to do that is to go to changelog.com slash community

你来告诉我，而最简单的办法就是去 changelog.com/community

161:34

It is free to join

加入是免费的

161:36

Zulip is worth that maybe changing soon. Who knows? Zulip had some changes. I'm still evaluating it, but for now

Zulip 值得这个，也许很快会变。谁知道呢？Zulip 有过一些变化。我还在评估它，但就目前而言

161:42

Zulip is our home and you can chat with us and everyone else in the community right there

Zulip 是我们的家，你可以在那里直接和我们以及社区里的所有人聊天

161:47

Of course a big thank you to the sponsor of this show without them. This show would not be possible

当然，也要非常感谢本节目的赞助商。没有他们，这档节目就不可能办成

161:51

Got our friends over at buildkite our friends at work OS and our friends at coder.com

感谢我们在 buildkite 的朋友们，我们在 work OS 的朋友们，以及我们在 coder.com 的朋友们

161:58

And of course to our partners at fly for giving our agents a home giving our agency computer

当然，还要感谢我们在 fly 的合作伙伴，给我们的 agents 一个家，给我们的 agency computer

162:04

Learn more at fly.io and to the beat freak in residence break master cylinder bringing those beats

想了解更多，请访问 fly.io；还要感谢 beat freak in residence 的 break master cylinder 带来这些节拍

162:11

I nod my head. I hope you do too. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you soon

我点点头。希望你也一样。感谢收听，我们很快再见

From zero to NanoClaw (Interview)

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