Practical AI
Education is Failing our Students in this AI-Driven World
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Welcome to the Practical AI Podcast, where we break down the real-world applications of artificial intelligence
欢迎来到 Practical AI Podcast，我们会拆解 AI 在现实世界中的应用
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and how it's shaping the way we live, work, and create.
以及它如何塑造我们生活、工作和创作的方式。
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Our goal is to help make AI technology, practical, productive, and accessible to everyone.
我们的目标是帮助让 AI 技术变得实用、高效，并且人人都能用上。
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Whether you're a developer, business leader, or just curious about the tech behind the buzz,
无论你是开发者、企业领导者，还是只是对热潮背后的技术感到好奇，
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you're in the right place.
那你就来对地方了。
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Be sure to connect with us on LinkedIn, X or Blue Sky
记得在 LinkedIn、X 或 Blue Sky 上和我们互动
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to stay up to date with episode drops, behind the scenes content, and AI insights.
及时了解新一期节目上线、幕后内容和 AI 洞察。
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You can learn more at practicalai.fm. Now, onto the show.
想了解更多，请访问 practicalai.fm。现在，节目开始。
00:41
Welcome to another episode of the Practical AI Podcast.
欢迎来到又一期 Practical AI Podcast。
00:45
In this episode, it's just Chris and I.
这一期只有 Chris 和我。
00:48
My co-host in these episodes where we don't have a guest,
在这些没有嘉宾的节目里，我的共同主持人，
00:52
it's a lot of fun to just dive into some of the topics that are of interest to us
能就一些我们感兴趣的话题深入聊下去，真的很有意思，
00:57
and that are in the news, or at the top of our minds, or guest or listeners' minds,
而且这些话题要么在新闻里，要么是我们最关心的，要么是嘉宾或听众最关心的，
01:04
as they've expressed them to us.
就像他们向我们表达过的那样。
01:06
So, excited to dig in with my co-host, Chris Benson, today,
所以，今天很期待和我的共同主持人 Chris Benson 一起深入聊聊，
01:10
who is a principal AI and autonomy research engineer.
他是首席 AI 与 autonomy 研究工程师。
01:14
I'm Daniel Whiteknack, I'm CEO at Prediction Guard.
我是 Daniel Whiteknack，Prediction Guard 的 CEO。
01:17
How you doing, Chris?
你怎么样啊，Chris？
01:18
Hey, I'm doing great today. How was it going?
嘿，我今天挺好的。你那边怎么样？
01:20
It's going wonderful. It's a very exciting time in my life,
一切都特别棒。这是我人生中非常激动人心的时刻，
01:26
both business-wise, lots of cool stuff going on,
不管是生意上，还是有很多很酷的事情在发生，
01:30
but I know you and I talking before and even about some of the things
但我知道你和我之前聊过，甚至聊到过一些
01:35
that we'll maybe talk about today, thinking a lot about kids recently.
我们今天可能会聊到的事情，最近我一直在想很多关于孩子的事。
01:40
So, for our listeners that don't know, I am expecting my first child in a couple months here,
所以，对于那些还不知道的听众，我再过几个月就要迎来我的第一个孩子了，
01:49
or less than a couple months coming up rapidly.
或者不到两个月，很快就到了。
01:55
And I've been saying a couple months, but it's past that time.
我一直说还有两个月，但现在已经过了那个时间点了。
02:00
So, yeah, very rapidly.
所以，是啊，非常快。
02:03
And so, I am for listeners that don't know.
所以，对不了解的听众来说，我……
02:09
I'm about 40 years old, so it's been my wife and I.
我大概 40 岁了，所以一直是我和我妻子两个人。
02:12
It's been a little while.
已经有一阵子了。
02:15
I've been married quite a while and so I'm going to be an older dad.
我结婚挺久了，所以我要当个年纪比较大的爸爸了。
02:19
And I've been thinking about things like, oh, man, I'm going to be an older dad
我一直在想，哎呀，我要当个年纪比较大的爸爸了。
02:24
going into these parent-teacher meetings or school meetings.
去参加这些家长会或者学校会议。
02:28
All of these teachers are going to be 24 years old or 25 years old.
这些老师都会是24岁或者25岁。
02:35
And I wonder what my perspectives will be as I come into these situations
我也在想，当我进入这些情况时，我的视角会是什么样，
02:41
and not only that, but there's a lot of things changing technology-wise,
而且不只是这样，技术方面也有很多东西在变，
02:45
which I know has been at the top of your mind, Chris.
我知道这一直是你最关心的事，Chris。
02:48
Yeah, and you're not too high.
是啊，而且你也没那么高。
02:50
So, like, to talk about my background, after coming through school myself,
所以，这么说吧，聊聊我的背景，我自己读完学之后，
02:56
and then I had a previous marriage where I raised a contributed to raising
然后我之前有过一段婚姻，在那段婚姻里我抚养了一个，也参与抚养了
03:01
to stepkids that I love.
对我深爱的继子女们。
03:03
And I'm still very close to, as we were talking about a little while ago,
而且我和他们现在依然非常亲近，就像我们刚才聊到的那样，
03:07
who are now grown and out in the world doing their stuff,
他们现在已经长大，走向社会，忙着自己的事情，
03:10
and kind of went through the educational process with them as a stepdad
而且我某种程度上是作为继父，陪他们走过了整个教育过程，
03:15
and showing up at those meetings.
还会去参加那些会议。
03:17
And then, in a second marriage, I have my current daughter.
后来在第二段婚姻里，我有了现在的女儿。
03:20
I know I mentioned her periodically on the show.
我知道我在节目里时不时会提到她。
03:22
She's now a freshman in high school, 14.
她现在读高一，14岁。
03:26
And so I'm doing all that over again.
所以我又把这一切重新做了一遍。
03:29
And so, you know, kind of went through two series of public school all the way up through.
所以，你知道，差不多是一路把两轮公立学校都读完了。
03:36
In addition, just as I know you do,
另外，就像我知道你也会做的那样，
03:39
I work with a couple of universities in an advisory role and stuff,
我跟几所大学有合作，担任顾问之类的角色，
03:44
the different roles with different universities.
在不同大学里担任不同的角色。
03:46
But I get to see up close and personal the education at that level well
但我能近距离、亲身地看到那个层次的教育，嗯
03:51
and get to contribute a little bit to the thinking around what should be done and stuff.
也能为关于该怎么做之类的思考贡献一点力量。
03:57
And, you know, since we always kind of tend to start the show with a pun,
而且，你知道，因为我们总是有点倾向于用一句双关语来开场，
04:02
we have all this beautiful fall weather.
我们这儿现在秋日天气可好了。
04:04
I took a walk with my dogs a little while ago,
我刚才带着狗出去散了会儿步，
04:07
and I was thinking about how education is falling short right now
然后我就在想，现在的教育有多跟不上
04:11
in terms of all the changes, you know, heavy.
面对所有这些变化，你知道，挺沉重的。
04:15
It is the season of.
这就是……的季节。
04:16
It's a dad pun right there, dad.
这不就是个老爸式双关嘛，老爸。
04:18
Yeah, there you go.
对，这就对了。
04:19
You got to get the dad joke again.
你又得来一个老爸笑话了。
04:21
So, you know, it's been on my mind a lot.
所以，你知道，这事儿一直在我脑子里转。
04:25
I've been in parent-teacher conferences.
我最近一直在开家长会。
04:27
We're looking at college once again.
我们又得开始琢磨大学的事了。
04:30
And I'm thinking of all the things that, you know,
然后我就会想到，你知道，所有那些
04:33
we talk about on this show all the time how fast things are changing.
我们在这个节目里一直聊的事情——变化有多快。
04:36
People are worried about jobs.
大家都担心工作。
04:38
They're worried about the future or what are they going to do.
他们担心未来，或者担心自己到底该怎么办。
04:41
And as I have mentioned, I spend a lot of time thinking about this partly
而且就像我提到过的，我花很多时间想这件事，一部分原因也是
04:47
because I'm actively working on a book about what life for humans will be like going forward
因为我正在积极写一本书，讲的是未来人类的生活会是什么样
04:56
as agentics are pervasive in all parts of life.
随着 agentics 渗透到生活的方方面面。
04:59
It's a very, it's for general audience.
这是一本非常，嗯，它是面向大众读者的书。
05:01
It's a very future forward book.
这是一本非常面向未来的书。
05:03
But that gets me thinking about, you know, what is my,
但这让我开始想，你知道，我的——
05:06
when, when my 14-year-old is now 40,
等到，等到我14岁的孩子到了40岁的时候，
05:09
and she's trying to deal with life at that point,
而她在那个阶段要应对生活的时候，
05:12
what does that look like?
那会是什么样子？
05:14
How, you know, what can we predict?
那么，你知道，我们能预测什么？
05:15
Or what can we only, you know, speculate a little bit less?
又或者，有哪些我们只能，你知道，稍微少猜一点？
05:18
And so I'm going through that thinking process.
所以我也在经历那个思考过程。
05:21
And as I do that and show up at today's, you know, school events and all that,
而当我这么做，又去参加今天的，你知道，学校活动之类的场合时，
05:26
I'm just constantly going, oh my god, this is a disaster.
我就不停地感叹：天哪，这简直是一场灾难。
05:30
So I'm not trying to pick on our school system, which I'll leave unnamed,
所以我不是要挑我们学校体系的刺，具体名字我就不说了，
05:34
or the universities that, that, that, that, but I'm recognizing that education
也不是要挑那些，那个，那个，那个，那个大学的刺，但我意识到，教育
05:39
just as the job market needs to kind of level up with AI,
就像就业市场一样，也得在 AI 这方面某种程度上升级。
05:43
as we talk about quite a lot, education does too.
就像我们经常聊到的那样，教育也是如此。
05:46
And I was proposing that we have a conversation about that.
而且我之前提议，我们就这件事聊一聊。
05:50
And I know you were willing to jump in as a, as a, as a new dad here.
而且我知道你愿意加入进来，作为，作为，作为一个新手爸爸。
05:54
And want to just kind of talk about where things are at and what those gaps are,
然后就想大概聊聊现在的情况怎么样，以及那些缺口是什么，
05:59
and maybe bring some insights as to people who think a lot about these topics
也许还能给那些经常思考这些话题的人带来一些洞见，
06:04
on where the future of education might be able to, to navigate to.
聊聊教育的未来可能能够，能够走向哪里。
06:08
Yeah, I, I think, I was trying to think of some other transitions
是啊，我，我觉得，我刚才在试着想一些别的过渡，
06:13
that, you know, where I could draw parallels.
就是，你知道，我能在哪里做类比。
06:16
And it's, it's a little bit hard to, like maybe you could say, you know,
而且这，这有点难，就像，也许你可以说，你知道，
06:20
computing in general are personal computers or that sort of thing.
一般来说 computing 就是 personal computers 或者那一类东西。
06:23
And maybe those, you could draw parallels there.
也许那些，你可以在那儿做个类比。
06:26
I was thinking even with social media, I think a lot of what we've learned
我在想，就算是社交媒体，我觉得我们学到的很多东西
06:30
about social media is that maybe those of us that were in that first generation
关于社交媒体，就是，也许我们这些属于第一代的人
06:37
to adopt social media, we really had no idea what we were getting into.
开始用社交媒体的时候，我们真的完全不知道自己在卷入什么。
06:42
And in some sense, it's like the introduction of opioids or something
而且在某种意义上，这就像 opioids 的引入还是什么的
06:47
where everybody is like, you know, or, or some, some substance
然后每个人都像，你知道，或者，或者某种，某种物质
06:51
where it's like, oh, we're going to put this in everything.
就是那种，哦，我们要把这个放进所有东西里。
06:53
And, and now we realize looking back, maybe that was not the, the best way to handle things.
而且，而且现在回头看，我们才意识到，也许那不是，不是处理事情的最好方式。
07:00
But even with social media, obviously social media affects all of our lives.
但即使是社交媒体，显然社交媒体影响着我们所有人的生活。
07:04
But it, it, it's not as connected maybe to the way each of us individually work
但它，它，它也许并没有那么紧密地关联到我们每个人各自工作的方式
07:11
and our roles in our work as AI is, right?
以及我们在工作中的角色，AI 才是这样，对吧？
07:15
Unless you're doing digital marketing or something like that
除非你是在做 digital marketing 之类的
07:18
or maybe if you're in HR trying to look up people's social media
或者也许你在 HR，想查查别人的社交媒体
07:23
to see if there's problematic things coming your, your direction.
看看有没有什么有问题的东西正朝你，你这边过来。
07:27
But yeah, I think generally, like if you were a mechanical engineer
但是啊，我觉得总的来说，如果你以前是个 mechanical engineer
07:32
before, before or after social media, like maybe you have a LinkedIn now
以前，或者说在 social media 出现之前或之后，可能你现在有个 LinkedIn
07:38
and there's some level of professional side of that.
而且这里面多少有一些职业层面上的东西。
07:42
But it didn't really, it didn't really necessarily change the way that you did your day-to-day work.
但它其实并没有，并没有真的必然改变你做日常工作的方法。
07:48
But AI has come on both more rapidly than social media.
但 AI 出现得比 social media 更快。
07:53
And it actually is affecting the way we all do our jobs, the way we all do our work
而且它实际上正在影响我们所有人做工作的方式，我们所有人做事的方式
07:59
and the way that we learn, right, in our educational system.
以及我们学习的方式，对吧，在我们的教育体系里。
08:03
So in a sense, it's both more impactful and happening faster than other things.
所以从某种意义上说，它既更有影响力，又比其他东西发生得更快。
08:09
And I think, you know, we hear a lot about educational institutions at all levels struggling with that.
而且我觉得，你知道，我们听到很多关于各个层级的教育机构都在为这件事头疼。
08:17
You know, and kind of the initial, the initial guidance was kind of,
你知道，而且最初的，最初的指导方针有点像是，
08:22
you're not allowed to use AI. And you know, you got to do the work yourself.
就是你不准用 AI。而且你知道，你得自己做作业。
08:26
And that was largely, I think, because there was no concept of how to integrate AI,
而这很大程度上，我觉得，是因为大家根本没有概念要怎么把 AI 整合进去，
08:31
the reality of that into that work stream that students are producing for their education.
把那个现实融入学生为教育产出的那个工作流里。
08:36
I think that's starting to change a little bit at least in some places,
我觉得至少在一些地方，这开始有点变化了，
08:40
because at this point, you know, it's very clear this is not going away.
因为到了这个时候，你知道，很明显这不会消失。
08:44
So I think some Ford leaning people are starting to try to identify,
所以我觉得一些 Ford leaning 的人开始试着去识别，
08:50
how do we integrate, you know, for the rest of these kids' lives as they grow up
我们怎么把它融入进去，你知道，在这些孩子接下来的人生里，随着他们长大，
08:55
and they're in the workplace all the way, they're going to have these tools.
而且他们一路到职场，都会拥有这些工具。
08:58
And the tools are going to progress and get better and better.
而这些工具会不断进步，变得越来越好。
09:01
So I think that's a big part of it is how do we, you have that happening with individuals,
所以我觉得，很大一部分就在于，我们怎么——个人层面已经在发生这种事了，
09:07
but how do we start getting that institutionalized so that school districts approve curriculums
但我们怎么开始把它制度化，让学区批准课程，
09:14
and states that have requirements that all schools have to meet, you know,
还有那些有所有学校都必须达到的要求的州，你知道，
09:18
get on board with that.
也都接受这件事。
09:20
And that way the teachers have the flexibility moving forward to actually kind of move the ball
这样一来，老师们往后就有灵活性，能真正算是把这件事往前推。
09:27
to where the reality is, because right now it's lacking.
去往现实所在的地方，因为现在这方面还欠缺。
09:30
Yeah, maybe I'm curious if you see this distinction,
嗯，也许我好奇的是，你能不能看到这个区别，
09:35
or if it's a distinction that even matters, but there's, in my mind,
或者这个区别是否真的重要，但在我看来，
09:40
there's one piece of it, which is AI is going to be a part of the way we all do our work.
这里面有一点，就是 AI 会变成我们所有人做事方式的一部分。
09:46
We need to educate people on how to use AI and how AI is integrated into our work.
我们需要教育人们如何使用 AI，以及 AI 如何融入我们的工作。
09:52
So that's one side of things.
所以这是一方面。
09:54
The other side of things is potentially, and I think different people have different opinions about this, right?
另一方面可能是，而且我觉得不同的人对此有不同的看法，对吧？
10:00
There are certain things that we need to ideally learn as humans to function well in the world,
有些事，作为人类，我们理想情况下需要学习，才能在这个世界上正常运作，
10:08
like as part of our educational system.
比如说，作为我们教育体系的一部分。
10:11
And if AI is interfering with the way that we learn those topics,
而如果 AI 正在干扰我们学习这些主题的方式，
10:18
then that could be problematic, or there's also a need to maybe adjust our educational system
那这可能会是个问题，或者也可能需要调整我们的教育体系
10:25
so we ensure the learning of those topics.
以确保我们学到这些主题。
10:28
So I'm thinking of whatever it is, let's say basic math skills, right?
所以我在想，不管是什么，比如说基础数学技能，对吧？
10:35
I think it's reasonable that a younger person, I don't know,
我觉得这挺合理的，一个更年轻的人，我不知道，
10:40
this shows how ignorant I am, and how I don't know anything about anything
这说明我有多无知，也说明我对什么都一无所知
10:48
about a lot of what I'll be experiencing over the coming years.
关于我未来几年会经历的很多事情。
10:53
I don't know typically at what level certain levels of math are introduced currently in curriculum,
我不知道现在课程里通常是在什么阶段引入某些数学内容，
11:00
but I imagine that a child could interact with an AI chat interface and get math answers
但我想象，一个孩子可以通过 AI chat interface 互动，然后拿到数学答案，
11:10
way before they're even introduced to the subjects where they're expected to know and learn that intuition.
甚至远在他们接触那些本应让他们知道并学会这种直觉的科目之前。
11:17
And so if I'm only getting those answers from the chat engine and not, you know,
所以说，如果我只是从 chat engine 那里得到那些答案，而不是，你知道，
11:22
learning actually how to do at least a basic level of math, many would see that as problematic.
真正学会至少怎么做基础数学，很多人会觉得这有问题。
11:30
I could also see just for a hot take on the other side, right?
我也能理解，站在另一边来个 hot take，对吧？
11:34
If you take the example of like spelling, or, you know, cursive, or, you know,
如果你拿拼写来举例，或者，你知道，连笔字，或者，你知道，
11:39
there's probably a lot of examples where you could say, well, spelling now,
可能有很多例子，你可以说，嗯，现在拼写，
11:43
if all I'm doing is putting text into where documents and spell check is integrated
如果我所做的只是把文本输入到集成了文档和拼写检查的地方，
11:48
or maybe even AI is just generating those for me, while spelling is no longer a relevant skill for anyone to learn.
或者甚至可能是 AI 直接替我把这些生成出来，而拼写已经不再是任何人需要学习的一项有意义的技能了。
11:55
So why, so I think there's, but I guess what I'm saying is there's one side of this,
所以为什么，所以我觉得有，但我想说的是，这件事有一面，
12:00
which is we need to educate on how to use AI.
那就是我们需要教育大家如何使用 AI。
12:03
There's another side of this, which is what are those fundamental things that we need to learn as humans outside of AI
这件事还有另一面，那就是，作为人类，在 AI 之外，我们需要学习哪些根本性的东西，
12:10
that are fundamentally or could be interfered with if we don't apply AI correctly in the educational system.
而这些根本性的东西，或者说，如果我们不在教育系统里正确应用 AI，就可能会受到干扰。
12:18
Does that distinction make sense to you, Chris?
这个区分对你来说讲得通吗，Chris？
12:21
I think it does.
我觉得讲得通。
12:22
I think if you, to draw out, I agree with everything you said.
我觉得，如果要展开来说，你说的我全都同意。
12:26
I think to draw that out a little bit more, there are some skills such as the ability to do critical thinking across a number of domains.
我觉得再展开一点说，有些技能，比如跨多个领域进行批判性思维的能力。
12:37
The ability to be creative across a number of domains and then to have the content like whatever,
在多个领域发挥创造力的能力，然后还要掌握内容，不管那是什么内容，
12:44
whatever discrete skills that you might be taught in school, as you pointed out,
不管你在学校里可能被教到的那些具体技能是什么，就像你指出的那样，
12:49
and those may change in some things that we think of as foundational,
而且这些可能会变，在一些我们认为是基础的东西上也会变，
12:52
foundational may be changing.
基础本身可能也在变。
12:55
But having enough context in your learning around your ability to do critical thinking and to be creative together
但让你的学习里有足够的 context，围绕你把批判性思维和创造力结合起来的能力，
13:04
so that you can collaborate with the technologies going forward and arrive.
这样你就能在未来和这些技术协作，并最终到达。
13:09
So without the context, and that's kind of what you're getting at there,
所以，如果没有 context，而这差不多就是你刚才说的意思，
13:12
having the math skills that you need to be able to follow along,
你得有能跟得上的数学能力，
13:16
maybe with harder math that you might be working with an AI,
也许是在跟 AI 一起做更难的数学时，
13:19
but there's a certain level you've got to get to.
但你得达到某个水平。
13:21
And so, I think being able to find that mix of educational context,
所以我觉得，能不能找到那种教育语境的融合，
13:28
mixed with those creative and critical thinking abilities to solve problems collaboratively going forward with AI
再跟那些创造性和批判性思维能力结合起来，未来跟 AI 协作解决问题，
13:36
because that's going to be the reality we're all facing.
因为那会是我们所有人面对的现实。
13:38
Yeah, maybe another way to put it is I, well, again, people have different opinions probably,
是啊，也许换个说法就是，我，嗯，还是说，人们大概会有不同的看法，
13:46
but at least from my point of view or world view or however you would frame it,
但至少从我的角度、我的世界观，或者不管你怎么表述，
13:51
I don't think you really advance in your character and development as a human without discomfort and struggle.
我觉得，没有不适和挣扎，你作为一个人，品格和发展就不会真正有所进步。
14:02
I agree with that.
我同意这一点。
14:03
And so a part of whether that's advancing in your marriage,
所以，无论是你的婚姻在进步，
14:07
advancing in your ability as a worker, advancing in your character as a human being
作为工作者的能力在提升，作为人的品格在成长，
14:16
and the values that you want to hold to,
还是你想要坚守的价值观，
14:19
the struggle of life is actually how that is stressed and how those things are built up.
生活中的挣扎其实正是这些东西被锤炼、被建立起来的方式。
14:31
And so I would view a part of the educational system as,
所以我会把教育体系的一部分看作，
14:37
or maybe the counter example I'm trying to draw out is, well, maybe it doesn't really matter if basic math or spelling
或者也许我想引出的 counter example 是，嗯，也许基础数学或拼写
14:44
is a part is like a fundamental skill now.
是不是其中一部分，现在是不是一项基本技能，其实都没那么重要了。
14:47
If it's stressing the right sort of thinking and allowing you to experience discomfort that advances your mindset, advances your problem solving,
如果它强调的是正确的那类思考，并且让你体验到那种不适，从而提升你的思维模式，提升你解决问题的能力，
14:57
advances your decision making, advances your resilience, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
提升你的决策能力，提升你的韧性，等等，等等，等等，
15:02
like you were saying, Chris.
就像你说的那样，Chris。
15:04
Yeah.
对。
15:06
We've talked a lot on the show about how an AI agent needs an underlying harness that has connections into the real world,
我们在节目里聊过很多次，一个 AI agent 需要一个底层的 harness，能够连接到现实世界，
15:14
into MCP servers and real systems and data sources.
连接到 MCP servers、真实系统和数据源。
15:17
That's the only way that it can work towards a useful goal.
那是它能朝着有用目标推进的唯一方式。
15:22
And that's why I'm so happy that we're partnering with SERP API,
也正因如此，我特别高兴我们能与 SERP API 合作，
15:26
which is a web search API that gives developers real-time structured access to search engine results.
它是一个 web search API，能让开发者实时、结构化地访问搜索引擎结果。
15:33
This is an amazing tool that you can plug directly into AI agents to power their actions and get them to the proper outcomes.
这是一个很棒的工具，你可以直接把它接入 AI agents，为它们的行动提供动力，并让它们得到正确的结果。
15:42
This very simple integration and this includes access to over 100 APIs within SERP API to access things like Google,
这种集成非常简单，而且它包含对 SERP API 中 100 多个 API 的访问权限，可以访问像 Google、
15:52
Bing, Amazon, YouTube, and many other sources.
Bing、Amazon、YouTube 以及许多其他来源。
15:56
So I would really encourage you to check out SERP API integrated into your AI agents.
所以我真的建议你去了解一下，把 SERP API 集成到你的 AI agents 中。
16:01
Visit SERPAPI.com slash practical AI to get started with SERP API for free and get 250 searches every month.
访问 SERPAPI.com/practical AI，免费开始使用 SERP API，每月还能获得 250 次搜索。
16:11
Visit SERPAPI.com slash practical AI to get started with SERP API for free and get 250 searches every month.
访问 SERPAPI.com/practical AI，免费开始使用 SERP API，每月能获得 250 次搜索。
16:22
The points you were making there in that last segment I think were spot on.
你在上一段里说的那些点，我觉得真是一针见血。
16:26
I think right now we're at a moment where we need to start looking at things that have been foundational for generations in terms of what you need and figure out how does this apply.
我觉得现在我们正处在一个时刻：需要开始审视那些几代人以来一直很基础的东西，看看你需要什么，并弄清楚这该怎么应用。
16:44
You mentioned spell checking and how that does.
你提到了拼写检查，以及它是怎么做到的。
16:46
Spelling is still important at some level even though we have spell check because it contributes to accurate communication that we have.
尽管我们有拼写检查，拼写某种程度上仍然很重要，因为它有助于我们进行准确的沟通。
16:56
But the question of whether or not there's a certain amount of analysis that needs to occur on if we take our foundational skills
但问题是，我们是否需要做一定量的分析：如果我们把那些基础技能
17:10
and look at what the world is going to be like a few years down the road, is that something that we're already,
再看看几年后的世界会是什么样，那是不是我们已经在……
17:17
are we already offloading some of those skills to AI and how are we collaborating to solve really tough problems?
我们是不是已经在把其中一些技能转交给 AI，以及我们该如何协作来解决真正棘手的问题？
17:23
To your point about the struggle, I know that in my own life as I'm working with AI every day, I know both you and I are collaborating with AI models all the time.
说到你说的那种挣扎，我知道在我自己的生活里，因为我每天都在跟 AI 打交道，我也知道你我其实一直都在跟 AI models 协作。
17:36
And that has changed the workflows on how I engage a lot of problems.
而这也改变了我处理很多问题时的 workflows。
17:41
In a lot of ways it's super charged what I can do, the productivity I know I've mentioned that before in terms of what I can generate.
在很多方面，它都极大增强了我能做的事；生产力这块，我知道我之前提过，就我能生成什么来说。
17:48
So my output is way above what it was possible a year ago.
所以我的 output 远远超过了一年前可能达到的水平。
17:53
And so I'm starting to really look at how am I doing that but I am noticing that that struggle still exists.
所以我现在开始认真审视我是怎么做到的，但我也注意到，那种挣扎依然存在。
17:59
It's just being placed in different places.
只是它现在被放到了不同的地方。
18:04
I can turn out, for instance, if I'm just making up an example, if I'm working on a website that I need for some function, I can turn out a bunch of code pretty quickly.
比如说，我只是随便举个例子，如果我在做一个网站，我需要它来实现某个功能，我能很快产出一堆 code。
18:18
And depending on what it's necessary for, there's a certain amount of rigor that goes around that.
而根据它到底要用在什么地方，这背后还是需要一定程度的严谨性。
18:25
But in a lot of cases, I'm able to offload a certain amount of that and focus on the creative process that's driving it.
但在很多情况下，我能把其中一部分分担出去，专注于背后驱动它的创作过程。
18:32
And I think that's one example of how good I am at Rust, which is what I usually use these days, is mattering less now than it was a year ago right now.
我觉得这就是一个例子，说明我有多擅长 Rust——这也是我最近常用的——现在这一点没有一年前那么重要了。
18:45
And so that's just one of many, many examples.
而这只是很多很多例子中的一个。
18:50
I'm doing a lot of authoring, like I said, and in that authoring a lot of the research uses tools to go out and qualify things that I'm about to suggest or put forward and stuff.
就像我说的，我现在做很多创作，而在创作过程中，很多研究会用工具去核实我即将建议或提出的东西之类的。
19:02
And so I think the thing that we need to do is to establish kind of what does this look like now, what does this look like over the next few years?
所以我觉得我们需要做的是，先搞清楚现在这到底是什么样，未来几年又会是什么样？
19:12
And how do we want to start making adjustments? Because if we lag too far in education, the kids of today are going to have a really hard time.
那我们想怎么开始做出调整？因为如果我们在教育上落后太多，今天的孩子会非常吃力。
19:18
And I'll finish by saying, in the workplace, I end up mentoring quite a few younger people that come in out of university and they'll be in their early or mid-20s or even late-20s.
最后我想说，在职场里，我会带不少从大学出来的年轻人，他们大概二十出头、二十五六岁，甚至快三十岁。
19:31
And the ones that are university are struggling a little bit to adjust to the new realities of workforce, to some degree.
而那些从大学出来的人，某种程度上，在适应职场的新现实时有点吃力。
19:40
And so I think we need to speed up the self-reflection process is what I'm getting at.
所以我觉得，我们需要加快这个自我反思的过程，这就是我想说的。
19:46
So I think that that, so I agree with everything you're saying, maybe I'll be a little bit divisive here or something like that.
所以我觉得，那个，我同意你说的所有东西，可能我在这里会稍微说得有点引起分歧，或者类似那样。
19:55
And it would basically say, okay, well, in light of all of that, if I'm a high school teacher, should I let students use AI on their assignments?
然后它基本上就会说，好吧，那么，考虑到所有这些，如果我是一个高中老师，我该不该让学生在作业里用 AI？
20:06
And in what ways is that question, I guess, useful or maybe not useful? Maybe that's a good way to frame it.
那这个问题，我猜，在哪些方面有用，或者也许没那么有用？也许这是个不错的切入方式。
20:13
I think I'm going to pivot you a little bit because I got I got smacked down a while back about a, I don't know, a year or two ago, we were actually having an episode and I was talking about teaching and stuff like that.
我想我要稍微让你转个方向，因为我之前被怼过，不知道，一两年前吧，我们当时其实在做一期节目，我在聊教学之类的东西。
20:25
And I had multiple teachers reach out to me after that episode and say, we don't have like you just put something in our lap that we don't have the authority to do control of.
然后那期节目之后，有好多老师来找我，说，我们没有，就像你把一个东西扔到我们腿上，而我们没有权力去控制它。
20:35
We don't have control of, you know, that comes down from from on high and we're within those boundaries.
我们不控制它，你知道，那是从上面传下来的，而我们只能在这些边界之内。
20:41
And they implement. That's correct. So for all of you teachers under understood.
然后他们就去执行。没错。所以，所有老师们，明白了。
20:46
Yeah. Yeah. So a good recommendation for when I go into parent teacher conferences.
对。对。所以，我去参加家长会的时候，这是个很好的建议。
20:52
Yeah. I might be grumpy about other things, but I should keep that in mind.
对。我可能会因为别的事情有点烦躁，但我应该记住这一点。
20:57
You probably will at times have you'll be frustrated because you'll walk from your world, which is very modern into it.
你有时候可能也会很沮丧，因为你会从自己那个非常现代的世界走进那里。
21:05
It'll feel like you're going into your child's world, which is a little bit archaic. And that's frustrating as a parent to say, why is it still this way?
感觉就像走进了你孩子的世界，那有点陈旧。作为家长，这挺让人沮丧的，你会说：为什么还是这样？
21:13
And yes, you know, the academic handcuffs are one to some degree.
而且是的，你知道，学术上的束缚在某种程度上算是其中一个原因。
21:19
So I try to keep that in mind as I'm having parent teacher discussions.
所以我在进行家长会交流时，尽量记住这一点。
21:24
But I do think that school systems, I would say the one that I'm in, you folks know who you are.
但我确实觉得学校系统——我会说，我所在的这个——你们这些人自己心里清楚。
21:33
You might be thinking about that. It might be if you are finding that you're using tools to learn yourself in life, bring that down for the kids, you know, figure out how can I do that?
你可能正在想这件事。也许，如果你发现自己在生活中会用一些工具来学习，那就把它带给孩子们，你知道，想想我怎么能做到这一点？
21:45
I know for me using these tools and I suspect it's the same for you. I rarely go and just get an answer unless it's a trivial thing unless it's a completely trivial thing.
我知道，对我来说，用这些工具的时候——我猜对你也是一样。
21:54
I usually go and explore the nature of a problem so that by the time I get to an answer, I've used these tools to ensure that I've done a certain amount of that struggle myself.
除非是特别琐碎的事，除非是完全无关紧要的事，我很少直接去拿一个答案。
22:05
And it's a self-imposed struggle so that I've learned. And I found that by doing that, these tools are catering to me. I've helped them. I've kind of given the profiles about me.
我通常会去探索一个问题的本质，这样等我得到答案时，我已经用这些工具确保自己经历了相当一部分那种挣扎。
22:18
And they're able to present information that's really optimal for me. And so even at 56, my current age, I am learning rapidly, certainly as fast as I have done over the last few decades or faster because I have these tools to do that.
而且这是我自己给自己加的挣扎，这样我才能学到东西。
22:34
What I'm suggesting is we need to push that down into more of a systematic approach in the school system and let these tools help kids in an individual level learn.
我发现，这样做之后，这些工具会越来越迎合我。
22:44
I'll give you one example before I shut up. I'm going to be radical here. But I did suggest this to a set of teachers recently and I think their face just dropped.
我帮了它们。
22:54
And that is, I think school systems, most of the curriculum is well set long before and the teachers know what they're teaching far before they actually get to a given day when they're teaching it.
我算是给了它们关于我的画像。
23:05
Put that curriculum out there so that so I'm not talking about the tests. I'm not talking about quizzes. But on the first day of school, have the whole year's curriculum out there.
它们就能呈现出对我来说真正最优的信息。
23:15
So that you have the ability. The kids are going to use these tools anyway to some degree. And rather than call that cheating, let them learn the material and find ways of determining how deep they're getting.
这样你就有这个能力了。孩子们反正多多少少都会用这些工具。与其把这叫作作弊，不如让他们去学这些内容，并想办法判断他们到底学得有多深。
23:30
Are they just getting shallow answers? Are they diving into it? But you can actually, as a parent, I can smooth out in certain areas where I know my daughter might struggle in certain areas.
他们是不是只拿到了一些浅显的答案？他们有没有真正钻进去？但作为家长，你其实可以——我可以在我知道女儿可能会在某些方面吃力的地方，把这些地方铺平。
23:41
And I can smooth that out, introduce things earlier, expand the period of time she's exposed to it and get her learning because I already do that as a parent.
我可以把这些地方铺平，提前引入内容，延长她接触这些东西的时间，让她学起来，因为我作为家长已经在这么做了。
23:50
And so when I suggested let everybody let everybody do that, they just their faces kind of fell. But I think that you could be a lot more efficient about getting individual students learning in specific ways that are specific to their learning styles and let the teachers become through school policy, through district policy, become kind of facilitators of that customization process.
所以当我建议大家让每个人都这么做的时候，他们的脸色就有点垮了。但我认为，你可以更高效地让每个学生以适合他们自己学习风格的特定方式去学习，并通过学校政策、通过学区政策，让老师成为这种个性化过程的推动者。
24:17
And I think teachers as humans would become much more useful in years ahead if they adjust their role to do that. I think we'll find that the need for human teachers stays very high rather than just saying, well, they're going to get replaced by AI. So there's there's my radical suggestion.
而且我觉得，如果老师们作为人调整自己的角色去做这件事，未来几年他们会变得有用得多。我觉得我们会发现，对真人老师的需求会一直非常高，而不是只说，嗯，他们会被 AI 取代。这就是我的激进建议。
24:34
Yeah, coming soon to a newly established established Benson Academy for for youth. Yeah. See if you get funding for that one. I think I know I like watching front of me there. There's a struggle there.
是啊。即将登陆一所新成立的、新成立的 Benson Academy for youth。是啊。看看你能不能给那个项目拿到资金吧。我想我知道，我喜欢看着在我前面的那个地方。那里有一种挣扎。
24:50
I like maybe a way to extrapolate a principle out of what you're saying their Chris is, I do think that for a piece of this is some sort of way in which both the elementary high school and universities systems can allow for experimentation with this technology.
我喜欢，也许可以从你说的东西里外推出一个原则，Chris，我确实认为，这其中有一部分是，小学、高中和大学体系都能以某种方式允许对这项技术进行实验。
25:15
In ways that they aren't now because to your point teachers are very much.
以他们现在还没有的方式，因为正如你所说，老师们非常……
25:22
They're hands are tied in a lot of cases in terms of what they can or can allow or even in some cases like, hey, you are going to use this tool to determine if this essay is written by AI or something like that or it's integrated into those those things.
在很多情况下，他们的手脚都被绑住了，不管是他们能做什么、能允许什么，甚至有些情况下，就像，嘿，你得用这个工具来判断这篇文章是不是 AI 写的之类的，或者它已经被整合进那些东西里了。
25:38
And so they may or may not have a choice to do that, but somehow there needs to be the chance for experimentation.
所以他们可能有的选，也可能没得选去做那件事，但不管怎样，总得有让他们去试验的机会。
25:47
I know some of the things that I've heard is a bit of reprioritization and tie-in of AI. So less of focus on memorization and repeating facts.
我知道，我听到的一些做法是，重新调整一下优先级，把 AI 结合起来。
25:57
And maybe a way for you to look at the output of AI and find what is maybe not accurate.
所以就没那么强调死记硬背和重复事实了。
26:08
So one one thing that I've heard certain teachers doing is saying, all right, here's here's our topic that we're all going to write an essay around.
也许还能让你去看 AI 的 output，找出哪些地方可能不准确。
26:19
You are going to put this and ask for this essay into AI. And then what I want is your critical analysis of how that essay could be improved in the output or maybe where what is not accurate in that essay or what is framed incorrectly.
所以我听说有些老师会做的一件事就是，他们会说，好吧，这就是我们要围绕来写文章的主题。
26:39
And just assume that there are things framed incorrectly or there is something to be improved.
你要把这个主题输入 AI，让它写一篇这样的文章。
26:45
And I guess you could argue, well, that could be done with AI too, but it is teaching a different sort of mechanism with AI, right, which is this, well, it is really a, you're looking at the output of this and not treating it as a gold standard.
然后我想要的是，你批判性地分析一下，AI 的 output 里这篇文章可以怎么改进，或者这篇文章里哪里不准确，或者哪里被错误地表述了。
27:00
Right, but you're building intuition that this needs to be checked and you're working back and forth on improving and there's still critical thinking where you have to determine what is, what is best, what is not, what is better, what is worse, etc.
对，但你这是在培养一种直觉：这东西需要被检查，你要来回迭代改进，而且仍然得有 critical thinking，你得判断什么可行、什么最好、什么不可行、什么更好、什么更差，等等。
27:15
So I'm not saying that's the perfect way to do it. I think I more mean teachers and professors likely need the freedom to be able to try some of these things.
所以我不是说那就是完美的做法。
27:29
You know, I'm not familiar enough, obviously familiar enough with the educational system to know the mechanism through which that could happen.
我觉得我更想说的是，老师和教授们大概需要能自由去尝试其中一些东西。
27:38
And maybe our listeners, if they're aware of some of, I'm sure that there's innovative programs going on in our country and other countries.
你知道，我对教育系统还不够熟悉，显然还没熟悉到能知道这可以通过什么机制发生。
27:46
If our listeners are aware of some of those things and maybe want to point us to some of those things, we would love maybe to have some of those experts on the show to highlight some of the more positive sides.
也许我们的听众，如果他们知道其中一些——我相信我们国家和其他国家都有一些创新项目正在进行。
27:59
What's going on there, which I'm sure there are people experimenting.
如果我们的听众知道其中一些，也许想给我们指出来，我们会很想请其中一些专家来节目里，突出一些更积极的方面。
28:03
I'm sure I would actually like to follow up and kind of put a challenge out there to viewers and listeners on this.
那边正在发生什么，我相信肯定有人在试验。
28:11
And, you know, if we're looking at a future going into the classroom a few years down the road and we have, we still have our human teacher facilitating this process.
其实我很想跟进一下，也算是向观众和听众发出一个挑战。
28:20
And, you know, not a new idea right here. I'm sure everyone's heard of it, but the notion of every student has a personal AI in the classroom with them that's designed to help educate them along these things that we're talking about.
而且，你知道，这在这儿并不是一个新想法。我敢肯定大家都听说过，但那个概念是：每个学生在教室里都有一个专属的 AI 陪着他们，专门用来沿着我们正在聊的这些方向帮助他们学习。
28:35
And maybe the AI, you know, maybe I'm just going to throw maybe there's an earpiece in that the kid has he can hear or she can hear the teacher clearly, but there's also an AI talking and saying, well, you know, how would you think about this?
而且也许这个 AI，你知道，我只是随便抛出来一个想法，也许孩子戴着一个 earpiece，他或她能清楚地听到老师说话，但同时也有一个 AI 在说话，说，嗯，你知道，你会怎么思考这个？
28:48
And as the teacher is working on that and the AI is observing the kids struggle through the process and they can cue them in ways that are customized for that particular student.
而当老师在推进这件事时，AI 在观察孩子们在这个过程中的挣扎，然后它们可以以针对那个特定学生定制的方式来提示他们。
29:00
So the AI that the next student over maybe queuing them a little bit differently, but it keeps them on track, keeps them focused on the work and keeps them on a learning curve.
所以旁边下一个学生对应的 AI 也许会稍微不同地提示他们，但这能让他们保持在正轨上，保持专注于任务，并保持在 learning curve 上。
29:10
I love to hear, that's not a new idea. You know, we've heard about those things in the past.
我很想听听，这不是一个新想法。你知道，我们过去听说过这些事。
29:14
I love to hear how people are thinking about that, whether that's on track, whether there needs to be something different and how you would use that kind of capability.
我很想听听人们怎么想这件事，这是否在正轨上，是否需要一些不同的东西，以及你会怎么使用那种能力。
29:24
So Chris, just to highlight a couple of things, which you had sent me prior to this conversation, which I think are interesting, just a couple of data points here.
所以 Chris，只是来强调几件事，你在这段对话之前发给我的，我觉得挺有意思，这里只是几个 data points。
29:34
There was a 2025 study field experiment with nearly a thousand high school mathematics students in Turkey.
有一项 2025 年的 field experiment 研究，涉及 Turkey 近一千名高中数学学生。
29:42
That found that a general chatbot improved assisted practice, but reduced subsequent unassisted exam performance by 17% relative to a control.
那项研究发现，一个通用 chatbot 能改善有辅助的练习，但相比 control 组，之后无辅助的考试成绩下降了 17%。
29:55
Then another study that was from Harvard undergraduate physics program, this was with around 200 students found stronger immediate learning gains with a carefully structured AI tutor across two lessons than with its active learning classroom comparison.
接着还有另一项来自 Harvard 本科物理项目的研究，大约有 200 名学生参与，发现用精心结构化的 AI tutor 上两节课，带来的即时学习收益比 active learning 课堂对照组更强。
30:15
I know actually even when I was teaching assistant at Purdue, this sort of active learning stuff was very much the thing that everyone was experimenting with.
我知道，其实我在 Purdue 当助教的时候，这种 active learning 的东西正是大家都在试验的。
30:28
I don't know that field in its entirety, but I know that was a big thing back then.
我对那个领域不算完全了解，但我知道当时那是个大事。
30:34
So it is encouraging that people are doing some of these experiments.
所以人们在做其中一些实验，这挺令人鼓舞的。
30:37
I know that Purdue, which is in the town where I live for those that don't know local here to me, I, you know, there's all sorts of mixed things, different departments are handling things differently.
我知道 Purdue 就在我住的那个镇上，不知道的人可能不清楚，对我来说就是本地。你也知道，那边有各种混杂的情况，不同院系处理方式也不一样。
30:53
But I know the system to your point, Chris, the system is doing certain things, so Purdue and I know they're not the only ones doing this, but they have now an actual requirement in the undergraduate like across all undergraduate degrees that there's an AI competency requirement.
但我知道，Chris，就像你说的，这个系统在做一些特定的事。所以 Purdue——我知道他们不是唯一这么做的——但他们现在在本科阶段，差不多所有本科学位都有一个实际要求，就是有一个 AI competency requirement。
31:12
And they say it's AI focused coursework designed to build critical thinking responsible AI use and workforce ready skills.
他们说，这是以 AI 为重点的课程，旨在培养批判性思维、负责任的 AI 使用以及职场就绪技能。
31:22
So yeah, I think to your point, Chris, you were mentioning mentoring people coming in out of university.
所以对，Chris，我觉得说到你说的这点，你刚提到在带那些刚从大学出来的人。
31:30
I struggle to believe that, well, or maybe the way to put it is a lot of those students coming out of university, at least if they're working in my company.
我很难相信这一点，嗯，或者换个说法，那些刚从大学出来的学生，至少如果他们在我的公司工作的话。
31:39
So maybe I just speak to my own experience, if they're not comfortable with wanting and digging into AI assistance in their day to day work, then that's going to be a problem for them at our company that is an expectation.
所以也许我就只谈我自己的经验，如果他们不习惯、也不愿意在日常工作中主动去用、去深挖 AI assistance，那在我们公司这对他们来说就会是个问题，因为这是我们对他们的期望。
31:56
However, that's not necessarily what they're learning in their university program where maybe they're, they have very much this, even if they like using it personally, they might have a negative association with AI in their day to day work because their day to day work has been university work and their university professors are up in arms about, oh, I'm guessing that you're using AI on this or I'm trying to prevent you from using AI on this or I'm using AI.
不过，这未必是他们在大学项目里学到的东西。也许他们非常强烈地有这种观念：即使他们个人喜欢用 AI，他们也可能会对日常工作中的 AI 有负面联想，因为他们的日常工作一直是大学学业，而他们的大学教授又反应激烈，说，哦，我猜你在这上面用了 AI，或者我要阻止你在这上面用 AI，或者我在用 AI。
32:26
I'm using AI detection to prevent you from gaming this this thing, right, which again, I feel for the professors because a lot of times their hands are tied there, maybe they don't know what to do.
我在用 AI detection 来防止你在这件事上钻空子，对吧，再说一次，我很同情教授们，因为很多时候他们也是束手无策，可能他们也不知道该怎么办。
32:38
So I definitely see that side of things, but certainly those students, if they form that association, that's not what is present a lot of at least.
所以我绝对能看到这一面，但当然，那些学生，如果他们形成了那种联想，至少那不是很多地方所呈现的情况。
32:47
And I know certain companies are not as far along in their AI adoption, right, but the reality is we're going that direction, whether anyone likes it or not and for you to have a job and a role, you're going to use AI in that role, so that is going to be an expectation.
而且我知道有些公司在 AI adoption 上还没那么领先，对吧，但现实是我们正在朝那个方向走，不管任何人喜不喜欢，而你要有一份工作和一个角色，你就要在那个角色里用 AI，所以那将会是一种期望。
33:05
Yeah, I think, you know, when you tell me this, you know, when you talk about the professor, you know, trying to say don't do this and trying to detect it, I don't have the answer to that.
对，我觉得，你知道，当你跟我说这个的时候，你知道，当你谈到教授试图说不要这样做、并试图检测它的时候，你知道，我没有答案。
33:15
But what I do have is my reaction to that is maybe, maybe we're measuring the wrong thing, maybe we need to find, how do we get the student where the student needs to go without telling them that the tools that are going to be embedded in their lives
但我有的是，我的反应是，也许，也许我们衡量错了东西，也许我们需要找到，如何让学生到达他们需要去的地方，而不告诉他们那些将要融入他们生活的工具是不公平的，你知道，那是作弊，那种观点。
33:35
are not fair, you know, that is cheating, that kind of perspective. I think that needs to change.
我觉得这需要改变。
33:42
We need to find a way of getting those critical skills to those students, acknowledging that this, you know, we all go and drive cars and do things that are just completely part of our life.
我们需要找到一种方法，把那些关键技能教给那些学生，承认这个，你知道，我们都会开车，做那些完全是我们生活一部分的事情。
33:56
This is also now part of that life, and so we need to acknowledge that education is never going to be without this again.
这现在也是生活的一部分，所以我们需要承认，教育再也不会没有这个了。
34:03
And so that's kind of what, that's kind of the little parental mission that I'm on right here is trying to do.
所以这就是，这就是我作为家长正在尝试做的小使命。
34:12
Don't claim to have all the answers, but it's a process I think that we need to engage in in the large.
不声称拥有所有答案，但我认为这是一个我们需要在大范围内参与的过程。
34:18
It's a societal problem that's only going to get worse as we go forward, unless we actually do that, love hearing about produce efforts and trying to start moving things incrementally forward on that.
这是一个社会问题，如果我们不真正去做，只会随着时间推移变得更糟，喜欢听到关于产出努力，并尝试在这方面逐步推进。
34:30
I'd like to ask you a question, what are your thoughts, you know, I'm talking to my daughter a lot about college, I'm talking to her about higher education, you know, what does it look like to go through graduate school, what is a PhD in, you know, what kinds of passions that she has given the fact that the world is changing rapidly, and none of us really know what kinds of changes in our career will be required because the world is changing.
我想问你一个问题，你有什么想法，你知道，我经常和我的女儿谈论大学，我和她谈论高等教育，你知道，读研究生是什么样子，PhD是什么，你知道，鉴于世界正在迅速变化，她有什么样的热情，而且我们没有人真正知道因为世界在变化，我们的职业需要什么样的变化。
34:58
What are your thoughts on higher education and the utility of the PhD, or how that utility may need to evolve to keep it, to keep it relevant, what are your thoughts there?
你怎么看高等教育和PhD的实用性，或者说这种实用性可能需要怎样演变才能保持它的相关性，你怎么看？
35:09
Yeah, I would say maybe just in reflecting on my own journey, which is mostly what I can do, I guess.
嗯，我会说，也许就从反思我自己的经历出发吧，这大概也是我唯一能做的。
35:17
Sure.
当然。
35:19
What's interesting is I would say that in I grew more as an individual and my abilities as an individual in terms of confidence, critical thinking, problem solving creativity in my PhD program, like by many, many orders of magnitude than undergraduate or or high school sort of environment.
有意思的是，我会说在我的PhD项目里，作为一个个体的成长，以及我个人能力方面的成长——比如自信、批判性思维、解决问题的能力和创造力——比在本科或者高中那种环境里的成长要高出好多好多数量级。
35:44
And I think that one, that's because obviously it was a lot harder, and so again, that fits maybe my, my leaning towards that side of the utility of struggle in terms of your, your growth.
我觉得一方面，这是因为显然它难得多，所以这也符合我倾向于认为挣扎对成长有实用性这一边的观点。
36:01
But I think also the PhD, if you're thinking about PhD specifically, it is different from other educational endeavors in that it is necessarily like you can't get a PhD without publishing novel research, right.
但我觉得PhD，如果你具体想的是PhD的话，它和其他教育经历不同的一点在于，它必然是你如果不发表新颖的研究就拿不到PhD，对吧。
36:19
And so regardless of how well AI systems can help you parse through the state of the art, they at the end of the day know the state of the art, and I know that people are working on AI systems that can kind of autonomously make maybe discoveries of their own, right.
所以不管AI系统能多好地帮你梳理最前沿的东西，它们归根结底是知道最前沿的，我也知道有人在研究能够自主做出一些发现之类的AI系统，对吧。
36:37
And so I do think that AI systems could assist in that exploration of what is novel, but to some degree, the PhD does force you to say, well, here are the fundamentals. I have a mental model of the fundamentals. Now, where can I draw outside of the lines knowing also that others who deeply know the fundamentals are going to be skeptical of me and question me around this where I'm drawing outside of the lines.
所以我确实认为AI系统可以协助探索什么是新颖的，但在某种程度上，PhD确实迫使你说，好吧，这些是基础。我对基础有一个心智模型。现在，在也知道其他深刻了解基础的人会对我持怀疑态度、会质疑我在哪里越界的情况下，我能在哪里越界呢。
37:07
I, I very much appreciate and love, you know, looking back and I still love this to this day, the idea of the poster session, right. I drew outside of the lines. I was creative and I'm saying that this is new territory and I think I'm making this progress in this area, and I'm putting it on a poster in a room with 50, you know, very experienced experts and physicists and professors and researchers in this room.
我，我非常欣赏也很喜欢，你知道，回头想想，我到现在还是很喜欢 poster session 这个概念，对吧。
37:37
And they're all going to come up and ask me on the fly, you know, to, they're all skeptical about, you know, my, my work, right. And, and I love that. And I think that that, it's not for everybody.
我没有按线来画。我很有创造力，而且我在说，这是新领域，我觉得我在这个领域里正在取得进展，然后我把它放到一张 poster 上，放在一个房间，里面有 50 个，你知道，非常有经验的专家、物理学家、教授和研究者。
37:52
And I'm not saying that everyone should do a PhD, but I think it is unique within that, you know, educational paradigm. And it produces some of that unique outcome where I think
然后他们都会走过来，当场问我，你知道，他们全都对我的，我的工作持怀疑态度，对吧。
38:04
a lot of, a lot of my confidence in operating an ambiguity came out of that process. So it, maybe it's less so, the individual discoveries that I think are still valuable in that graduate school PhD program, because I think you could argue while AI systems, if they're good enough, they could help us explore these topics and make new discoveries. And it's more, more that comfort level and working with ambiguity through the struggle towards defense.
而且，而且我很喜欢这一点。而且我觉得，这个，不是所有人都适合。
38:33
And it's a defensible position that you're confident in that that's actually a very creative process. And I think that that's a value. I think it's not the only way you can do that, right, entrepreneurs that create ventures, right, have a very similar type of process, right.
我不是说每个人都应该去读 PhD，但我觉得它在那套，你知道，教育范式里是很独特的。而且它会带来某种独特的结果，我觉得我很多，很多在模糊性中行动的信心，都是从那个过程里来的。
38:51
You could have an AI generate your business idea, but at the end of the day, that doesn't mean it has product market fit. And even if it does have product market fit, you can still sabotage your own business to make it not succeed.
所以，也许更不重要的是，那些我认为在 graduate school PhD program 里仍然有价值的个人发现，因为我觉得你可能会说，AI 系统如果足够好，它们可以帮我们探索这些主题、做出新发现。
39:04
It's a very creative and difficult and struggle filled endeavor. And so that produces that level of working in ambiguity, creativity, et cetera. And you know, you could probably come up with other examples. So there's the PhD, there's entrepreneurship and venture building, there's creative pursuits, right, whether it's you mentioned writing writing a new piece, you know, writing a book or
而更重要的是，更多是那种舒适感，以及通过一路挣扎走向 defense 来和模糊性共处。
39:30
or art or whatever those things are that are pushing those boundaries where human creativity is still is still what's needed.
而且那是一个你很有信心的、站得住脚的立场，而这其实是一个非常创造性的过程。我觉得这就是一种价值。我觉得这不是你唯一能做到这一点的方式，对吧，创办企业的创业者，对吧，也有非常相似的过程，对吧。
39:40
I think I strayed quite a bit from your initial question, but those are some of what what it makes me think of those are maybe it's a definition of where is where are we finding value in our creative endeavors as humans and how do we promote more of that, which could be through a PhD program.
我觉得我挺偏离你最初的问题的，但这些是它让我想到的一些东西，也许这算是一种定义：作为人类，我们在自己的创造性追求里到底从哪里找到价值，以及我们怎么促进更多这样的价值，而这可能可以通过 PhD program 来实现。
39:59
I think there's still relevant. It could be through these other pursuits, but yeah, there's a real creative element at its core.
我觉得这仍然相关。它也可以通过这些其他追求来实现，但没错，它的核心确实有真正的创造性元素。
40:09
You know, I know that you were saying that you had deviated a bit from the question, but you you definitely inspired some thinking as we're winding up here on our on our discussion.
你知道，我知道你刚说你有点偏离了那个问题，但在我们这次讨论快收尾的时候，你确实启发了不少思考。
40:20
One of the things I think I'll take away and that maybe others might want to consider as well is with you talking about the value of ambiguity, creativity and the struggle itself, and how that really, you know, enabled you to grow as a person.
我觉得我从中会收获的一点，也许其他人也会想考虑的是，你谈到模糊性、创造力和挣扎本身的价值，以及那真的，你知道，如何让你作为一个人成长。
40:36
You know, you said orders of magnitude. And as I'm looking at what if you were to take that process a little bit earlier in the educational process down to where you are addressing fundamentals, how might introducing ambiguity, creativity and struggle.
你知道，你说过 orders of magnitude。而当我在想，如果你把那个过程放到教育过程里更早一点，一直下探到你处理 fundamentals 的地方，那么引入模糊性、创造力和挣扎又会怎样。
40:53
You know, and then allowing for some tooling to be part of that process introduce fundamentals in a way that creates that critical thinking enhances that creativity allows kids to do it, though it may be a different path on how they're achieving that from what we're doing today.
你知道，然后允许一些 tooling 成为那个过程的一部分，以一种能培养 critical thinking、增强创造力、让孩子们也能做到的方式来引入 fundamentals，尽管他们实现这一点的方式可能和我们今天做的很不一样。
41:12
You know, a little bit less memorization and and that kind of stuff and and a little bit more driving them forward and relying on the road stuff to the tool.
你知道，少一点死记硬背和那种东西，多一点推动他们往前走，并把 road stuff 交给 tool。
41:22
So that's that's where you've taken me Daniel, and I appreciate that. So it's giving me something to think about. Any any final thoughts from you in terms of new dad about to hit the world of this.
所以这就是你把我带到的地方，Daniel，我很感激。这让我有了一些可以思考的东西。作为一个即将踏入这个世界的新手爸爸，你有什么最后的想法吗？
41:35
All is with the caveat of I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I think that's like maybe it ties back to the maybe it ties back to the PhD thing.
这一切都有个前提，就是我根本不知道自己在说什么，但我觉得这也许，嗯，可能又绕回到那个 PhD 的事情上了。
41:47
It's like I'm perfectly fine operating in this space where I don't I don't know everything and still having opinions and creativity.
就像我完全可以在这个空间里运作：我并不是，并不是什么都知道，但仍然可以有观点和创造力。
41:58
And I think, you know, I recognize that caveat that I am no educational expert, but I think it is an evidence of the fact that you can we can I hope into this future still develop people that have confidence and problem solving skills and creativity.
而且我觉得，你知道，我承认这个前提，我不是教育专家，但我觉得这证明了一件事：你可以——我们可以——我希望——走向这个未来，同时仍然培养出有自信、有解决问题能力、有创造力的人。
42:19
But I definitely think it's going to be going to be different moving forward. And I guess maybe there's a follow up show here in the future to maybe dive in with some educators specifically around around how that's developing.
但我绝对觉得，往后走，情况会、会变得不一样。我猜也许未来会有一期后续节目，专门和一些教育工作者深入聊聊这方面是怎么发展的。
42:31
I certainly know from even my experience with other technologies that the educational systems are often behind, you know, even before AI that was true.
从我自己接触其他技术的经历来看，我确实知道，教育系统往往都落后，你知道，甚至在 AI 出现之前就是如此。
42:41
And that's problematic right the same with legislation right legislation is always behind what we're doing with technology and that creates its own problems as well.
而这很有问题，对吧，立法也是一样，对吧，立法总是落后于我们在技术上的进展，这也会带来它自己的问题。
42:52
But it doesn't mean that we can't catch up and make changes and so with would love to get any connections to educational experts out there from our audience.
但这并不意味着我们没法追上、没法做出改变，所以我们很希望能从听众那里获得一些教育专家的联系渠道。
43:02
If you have them, please send them our way.
如果你有的话，请把他们介绍给我们。
43:04
Good way to wind up. Thanks for thanks for the conversation today.
很好的收尾方式。谢谢你，谢谢今天的对话。
43:07
Yeah, same here. Talk to you soon Chris.
是啊，我也一样。回头聊，Chris。
43:15
Alright, that's our show for this week.
好，这就是我们这周的节目。
43:17
If you haven't checked out our website, head to practical ai.fm and be sure to connect with us on LinkedIn, X, or Blue Sky.
如果你还没看过我们的网站，去 practical ai.fm 看看，也一定要在 LinkedIn、X 或 Blue Sky 上和我们联系。
43:25
You'll see us posting insights related to the latest AI developments and we would love for you to join the conversation.
你会看到我们发布与最新 AI 发展相关的见解，我们也很希望你能加入讨论。
43:31
Thanks to our partner Prediction Guard for providing operational support for the show.
感谢我们的合作伙伴 Prediction Guard 为节目提供运营支持。
43:35
Check them out at PredictionGuard.com.
去 PredictionGuard.com 看看他们。
43:38
Also, thanks to break master cylinder for the beats and you for listening.
另外，感谢 break master cylinder 带来的 beats，也感谢你的收听。
43:42
That's all for now. But you'll hear from us again next week.
这次就到这里。不过下周你还会再听到我们。