Computer-Use Agents and the Future of the Agentic Internet ·

00:01

Welcome to the Practical AI Podcast, where we break down the real-world applications of artificial intelligence

欢迎来到 Practical AI Podcast，我们在这里拆解 AI 在现实世界中的应用

00:08

and how it's shaping the way we live, work, and create.

以及它正在如何塑造我们生活、工作和创造的方式。

00:12

Our goal is to help make AI technology, practical, productive, and accessible to everyone.

我们的目标是帮助让 AI 技术变得实用、高效，并且人人都能接触和使用。

00:18

Whether you're a developer, business leader, or just curious about the tech behind the buzz,

不管你是开发者、企业领导者，还是只是对这股热潮背后的技术感到好奇，

00:22

you're in the right place.

你都来对地方了。

00:24

Be sure to connect with us on LinkedIn, X, or Blue Sky

记得在 LinkedIn、X 或 Blue Sky 上和我们互动

00:27

to stay up to date with episode drops, behind the scenes content, and AI insights.

这样就能及时了解新一期节目上线、幕后内容和 AI 洞察。

00:32

You can learn more at practicalai.fm. Now, on to the show.

你可以在 practicalai.fm 了解更多。现在，节目开始。

00:41

Hey, welcome to another episode of the Practical AI Podcast.

嘿，欢迎来到另一期 Practical AI Podcast。

00:44

I am Chris Benson, your co-host.

我是 Chris Benson，你们的联合主持人。

00:47

Daniel is out today, and he's really going to miss this one because we have an old friend of the podcast

Daniel 今天不在，他真的会遗憾错过这一期，因为我们有一位播客的老朋友

00:54

who has been on multiple times, Demetrius Sprankman, who is okay.

他上过我们节目好几次，Demetrius Sprankman，他还不错。

01:00

Let's get the title right here, Demetrius.

我们把头衔说对，Demetrius。

01:03

Head of development experience, and a member of the non-technical staff at the Agentic AI Foundation,

Head of development experience，也是 Agentic AI Foundation 的非技术团队成员，

01:11

and he's also, by the way, his most folks who have seen us with us before.

而且顺便说一句，正如大多数以前见过他上我们节目的人所知，

01:15

He's the founder of the MLOps community.

他是 MLOps community 的创始人。

01:18

Oh my god, that's the longest title, Demetrius.

天哪，这标题也太长了，Demetrius。

01:20

I think I've ever had it to do on the show.

我觉得这是我在节目里做过的最长标题了。

01:23

You made a real line, I'll tell you what, I'm just rid of paragraphs.

你可真弄了一长行，我跟你说，我干脆把段落都去掉了。

01:27

So, great to have you back.

所以，很高兴你能回来。

01:29

I've lost count of how many times we've done this together.

我已经数不清我们一起做过多少次了。

01:33

You are, like for those who are joining us that are not familiar with you,

你吧，就像——对那些刚加入我们、还不太熟悉你的人来说，

01:39

in addition to all these hats that you wear, amazing thought leader in the world of AI,

除了你身兼这么多角色之外，你还是 AI 领域了不起的思想领袖，

01:46

and I know we're going to have some really good stuff to talk about today,

而且我知道，我们今天会聊到一些非常棒的东西，

01:50

and I know that the viewers and the listeners will enjoy this as much as I do.

我知道观众和听众会跟我一样喜欢这个。

01:55

And before we start, I have to say.

不过在开始之前，我得说一句。

01:58

So, after the last time we talked, you had sent me a T-shirt.

所以，上次我们聊完之后，你给我寄了一件 T恤。

02:02

It's a super cool T-shirt.

这是一件超酷的 T恤。

02:03

It's one of my favorite bum around the house T-shirts.

这是我最喜欢在家随便晃悠时穿的 T恤之一。

02:05

I'm wearing it right now.

我现在就穿着它。

02:06

For those who are watching us on YouTube, it says,

在 YouTube 上看我们的各位，它上面写着：

02:10

I hallucinate more than chat GPT.

我比 chat GPT 还能 hallucinate。

02:12

And so, my wife is completely sick of seeing me wear it.

所以，我老婆已经完全看腻我穿它了。

02:16

It's faded red now, it doesn't.

现在都褪成淡红色了，不行了。

02:18

I'm sorry, man, it looked good when you gave it to me,

抱歉啊，哥们，你给我的时候它挺好看的，

02:20

but it doesn't look good anymore because it's all faded out.

但现在不好看了，因为全都褪色了。

02:23

But that's because it's a fun T-shirt to wear.

但那是因为这件T恤穿起来挺有意思的。

02:25

Anytime you get next one.

等你下次再弄到一件的时候。

02:28

Anytime I wear it out, I have to tell people.

每次我穿它出门，我都得跟人解释。

02:31

Everyone asks me about the hallucination thing.

大家都问我 hallucination 那件事。

02:34

But then I have to also say, and just because there are people at my real job,

但我也得说一句，而且就因为我正职那边有人在，

02:39

I'm not hallucinating.

我不是在 hallucinating。

02:40

Just so you know, there's no drug test required or anything.

先说明一下，这里不需要药检什么的。

02:43

No hallucinating here whatsoever.

这里绝对没有任何 hallucinating。

02:45

So, with all the fun, start.

那么，带着这些乐子，开始吧。

02:48

This is probably not the show most viewers were expecting that we'd start with,

这大概不是大多数观众期待我们会拿来开场的那档节目，

02:52

but we always have fun.

但我们总是玩得很开心。

02:54

How you doing things have really changed since the last time we talked for you.

你怎么样？自从上次我们聊过之后，事情对你来说真的变了很多。

02:58

Tell us where you're at, what you're doing, what's going on with it at this point.

跟我们说说你现在什么情况，在做什么，现在这事儿进展到哪一步了。

03:02

Well, first of all, let me just say that the last time we chatted,

嗯，首先我想说，我们上次聊天的时候，

03:06

we came up with some bangers that people are still hitting me up for,

我们搞出了一些特别炸的东西，到现在还有人来找我要，

03:10

like broccoli AI.

比如 broccoli AI。

03:12

I don't know if you remember going to...

我不知道你还记不记得当时聊到……

03:14

I do.

我记得。

03:15

I do gardener hype cycle.

我记得 gardener hype cycle。

03:17

And we created our own gardener hype cycle.

然后我们创造了我们自己的 gardener hype cycle。

03:20

And one of the things that was on there was broccoli AI.

而且当时里面聊到的一个东西就是 broccoli AI。

03:23

It was almost peacype.

它几乎就是 peacype。

03:25

Yep.

对。

03:26

And for those who didn't hear that episode it is that AI that you probably don't like

对那些没听过那期节目的人来说，它就是那种你可能不太喜欢的 AI

03:32

because it tastes bad, but you need it because it's good for your organization.

因为它味道不好，但你需要它，因为它对你的组织有好处。

03:36

That's right.

没错。

03:37

And that was something in Daniel's not here today,

而且那是 Daniel 那边的一个东西，他今天不在，

03:40

But he was also all about that that it's you know like there are things in our world

但他也特别推崇那个，你知道，就像我们这个世界上有一些东西

03:45

We you know the height tends to take over but there are things in our AI world

我们，你知道，高度往往会占据主导，但在我们的 AI 世界里有些事情

03:49

But you just got to do to do this stuff well and some of it's not the coolest and most fun thing

但你必须得把这些事情做好，而其中一些并不是最酷、最有趣的事情

03:54

And we were talking about that and that is it broccoli AI was born

我们当时就在讨论这个，于是 broccoli AI 就诞生了

03:58

So there you go the next thing. I want to say is I'm gonna get you the new shirt that says member of the

所以就这样，接下来我想说的是，我要给你弄一件新 T 恤，上面写着 member of the

04:04

Non-technical staff actually you can join me in my ranks

Non-technical staff，其实你可以加入我的行列

04:09

Excellent. I gotta get my ego stroked right there. You know, that's good. I appreciate that

太好了。我得让人夸夸我一下。你知道，这很好。我很感激

04:14

I just find it hilarious that everyone at Anthropic or open AI their members of the technical staff

我只是觉得很好笑，Anthropic 或 open AI 的每个人都是 technical staff 的成员

04:21

And so I had to go against the grain and be a member of the non-technical staff

所以我不得不反其道而行之，成为 non-technical staff 的一员

04:25

That's where that came from and that's a pretty good idea. Yeah

这就是它的由来，而且这主意挺不错的。对

04:28

I mean tell tell me about

我是说，跟我说说，说说

04:30

Emelop's community and and the agentic AI foundation and what what happened here?

Emelop 的社区，还有还有 agentic AI foundation，还有这里到底发生了什么？

04:35

Well, so I'm super excited because in the beginning of the year or just at the end of last year

嗯，我超级兴奋，因为今年年初，或者就在去年年底

04:41

MCP got donated to the Linux foundation. They created the agentic AI foundation around it and

MCP 被捐赠给了 Linux foundation。他们围绕它创建了 agentic AI foundation，而且

04:48

Out of that there's just been like huge interest from all the top players because now

由此，所有顶级玩家都产生了巨大的兴趣，因为现在

04:54

MCP went from being something that was owned by Anthropic to being this

MCP 从原本由 Anthropic 拥有的东西，变成了这个

05:00

Neutral governing body that is steering it and

中立的治理机构，在引导它，而且

05:04

so I was sitting there and I was like man

所以我就坐在那儿，心想，天哪

05:08

That is an awesome opportunity. We've been doing so much already in the ML ops community around agents

那真是个超棒的机会。我们在 ML ops 社区围绕 agents 已经做了很多了

05:15

You know the ML ops community started as putting machine learning into production

你知道，ML ops 社区最初就是把 machine learning 投入 production

05:18

Then when LM's came out and they were all the rage it we kind of

然后当 LM's 出现，它们风靡一时，我们就有点

05:23

Started incorporating more of the putting LM's into production

开始更多地融入把 LM's 投入 production

05:27

And then agents became a real thing and they became something that we were using every day and then it was like

然后 agents 真正火起来了，成了我们每天都会用的东西，然后就想

05:33

Okay, well what about putting agents into production and so it just kind of made sense when we were looking at

好吧，那如果把 agents 投入 production 呢？所以当我们考虑的时候，就觉得很合理

05:41

Hey, is there a home for the ML ops community to do more and have more resources around it and

嘿，有没有一个能让 ML ops 社区做更多事、获得更多资源的地方，然后

05:50

and

而且

05:51

Take the same types of stuff that we're doing and the same reasons that people enjoy

把我们正在做的那些同类事情，以及人们之所以喜欢

05:57

Being in like this very deep technical community and then just like do more and better and so that was the pitch and

待在这种非常硬核的技术社区里的那些理由都拿来，然后就是做得更多、更好，所以那就是我们的卖点，然后

06:07

Luckily the folks at the agentic AI foundation were on board and so we we kind of merged

幸运的是，agentic AI foundation 的人很支持，所以我们算是合并了

06:13

We're now going to be doing a bit of a rebrand the ML ops community is becoming the agentic AI community or the agentic AI foundation community and

我们现在要稍微 rebrand 一下，ML ops community 正在变成 agentic AI community，或者 agentic AI foundation community，然后

06:23

We're just doing more of the same like we're doing a whole lot of conferences next week

我们只是在做更多同样的事，比如下周我们要办一大堆会议

06:28

I'm going to Japan for a mcp dev summit and then I'm right back in Amsterdam for agent con agent con is like our big flagship event in

我要去 Japan 参加一个 mcp dev summit，然后马上回到 Amsterdam 参加 agent con，agent con 算是我们的旗舰级大型活动，在

06:39

Europe and then is September 17th and then we have another agent con in

Europe，然后就是 9 月 17 日，然后我们还有另一个 agent con 在

06:44

North America and San Jose on October 22nd and you'll like this one thing

North America 和 San Jose，10 月 22 日，而且你会喜欢这一件事

06:49

I'm doing for agent con that is very much in the spirit of what we did in the ML ops days is I got a

我在 agent con 上做的这件事，非常符合我们当年做 ML ops 时的精神，就是我搞了一个

06:57

36 hour live stream put together, so we have the live event and what I you know, I love watching

36 小时的 live stream，所以我们现在有现场活动，而且我，你知道，我特别喜欢看

07:07

Coachella or like these very highly produced events that are both

Coachella，或者那些制作非常精良、两边都兼顾的活动

07:13

They're taking the virtual aspect into consideration. It's not just like a

它们会把线上部分也考虑进去。它不只是一个

07:19

in-person and you fully optimize for in-person, but then the virtual aspect isn't really there

线下活动，你完全为线下做优化，但线上部分其实根本没真正照顾到

07:25

So what I decided to do is how can we make the agent con in Amsterdam?

所以我决定要做的是，我们怎么才能把 Amsterdam 的 agent con 做得

07:30

Absolutely like optimize for in-person, but not forgetting about the virtual aspect and that's why we decided to do

绝对要像那样为线下做优化，但也不忘线上部分，这就是为什么我们决定这么做

07:38

You know 36 hours live streaming the whole thing. I'm gonna be hosting it

你知道，36 小时全程 live streaming。这整件事我会来主持。

07:42

So we'll be popping in and out. It's gonna be like ESPN style

所以我们会时不时进来一下、出去一下。会有点像 ESPN 那种风格。

07:46

Play by play of the talks. What does that mean? What do we think?

给讲座做 play by play 解说。那是什么意思？大家觉得怎么样？

07:49

I'm gonna be grabbing people from the crowd walking around the Expo Hall all that

我会从人群里拉人，在 Expo Hall 里到处走，之类的。

07:54

I is to say it's the first time I'm going fully all in on it

我想说的是，这是我第一次对这件事完全 all in。

07:58

So there's gonna be a few problems things will break, but that's a that's where I'm at right now

所以会出几个问题，有些东西会坏掉，但这就是……这就是我现在的状态。

08:04

It sounds like a lot of fun. So I just you're not gonna stay up for 36 hours there, right?

听起来挺有意思的。所以我就是……你不会真在那儿熬 36 个小时吧，对吧？

08:17

Okay, okay

好，好。

08:21

Yeah, cuz there's gonna be breakout sessions, right? There's really three or four tracks going on at once and so we'll be

对，因为会有分会场，对吧？其实同时会有三四个 track 在跑，所以我们会

08:28

Livestream in the main track during the day when it's actually happening live

白天主 track 真正现场进行的时候，我们会做直播

08:32

But then we're recording all of the breakout tracks and then we're going to put those back-to-back on top of it

但之后我们会把所有分会场的内容都录下来，然后再把它们连着加进去

08:39

But there's some other cool things that I don't want to fully give away yet

不过还有一些很酷的东西，我现在还不想完全剧透

08:43

But I'm gonna be recording some stuff that we can

但我会录一些东西，这样我们可以

08:46

Splice in in between different talks and we've also got some of the sponsors to like

穿插在不同演讲之间，而且我们还让一些赞助商，呃

08:52

Give us some cool material that we can also splice in so it's gonna be an event

给我们一些很酷的素材，我们也能剪进去，所以这会是一场活动

08:57

That's for sure. It may totally fall flat on its face, but I'm gonna go down with the ship if it does

这肯定的。它可能会彻底扑街，但如果真扑了，我也要跟这艘船一起沉下去

09:05

Okay, fair enough. I'm just glad you have something there to mix in with it

好吧，有道理。我就是挺高兴你那儿有东西能掺进去一起用

09:09

So that like I'm imagining interviewing you right after a 36 hour marathon and you're just like laying your head on the desk

所以就像我在想象，刚跑完一个36小时马拉松马上采访你，你就直接把头趴在桌子上

09:15

You know

你知道的

09:16

Unable to function so

完全没法正常运转了，所以

09:18

It's good. I'm glad we got the stuff in there. Get a little sleep in the process

挺好。我很高兴咱们把这些内容放进去了。顺便还能睡一会儿

09:23

Looking forward to watching the live feed myself as we get there

我也很期待等我们到那一步时自己看 live feed

09:27

Listen, I've been to an incredible amount of AI events many of which are good

听着，我参加过超级多的 AI 活动，其中很多都不错

09:34

But many of which are not practical. You know. I love practicality

但也有很多不实用。你知道的。我就爱实用

09:38

We're on practical AI and some are just hype focus some are sales focused

我们做的是实用 AI，而有些只是炒作导向，有些则是销售导向

09:44

That's why I'm always eager to share about an event that I truly think is practical and useful for people

这就是为什么我总是很愿意分享一个我真心觉得对大家实用、有帮助的活动

09:51

That's what I discovered last year at the Midwest AI Summit and they're gonna have another Midwest AI

这就是我去年在 Midwest AI Summit 上发现的，而且他们还会再办一场 Midwest AI

09:57

Summit October 15th and Indianapolis this year

Summit，10月15日，地点在 Indianapolis，就在今年

10:01

2026 one of the reasons why I love this event was there was an actual AI engineering

2026。我喜欢这个活动的一个原因是，那里有一个真正的 AI engineering

10:06

Lounge where you could sit down and talk through your use cases with actual experienced AI engineers and practitioners

Lounge，你可以坐下来，和真正有经验的 AI 工程师和从业者一起把你的 use cases 聊透

10:13

To really brainstorm and come back from the event with actual

真正做头脑风暴，活动结束后能带着实际的

10:17

Solutions and practicality rather than just a bunch of content and slides, but there were also amazing keynote speakers

解决方案和实用性回去，而不是一堆内容和幻灯片，不过现场也有很棒的主旨演讲嘉宾

10:26

Speakers from

演讲嘉宾来自

10:28

Even that had been on the podcast before like Rajeev Shah was at last year's event

甚至像 Rajeev Shah 这样之前上过 podcast 的人，也去了去年的活动

10:34

I would really recommend that you go to Midwest AI Summit.com and

我真的推荐你去 Midwest AI Summit.com，另外

10:40

For our listeners, you can actually get 20% off with the code practical AI 20

我们的听众其实可以用优惠码 practical AI 20 打八折

10:46

So go to Midwest AI Summit.com. Don't miss your chance to attend this event and get 20% off with the code

所以去 Midwest AI Summit.com 吧。别错过参加这次活动、用优惠码打八折的机会

10:54

practical AI 20

11:01

Okay, so

好，那么

11:02

So a lot of cool events that you're working on and it sounds like a lot of fun looking forward to

所以你在筹备很多很酷的活动，听起来很有趣，很期待

11:08

Seeing how all that goes um

看看这一切会怎么发展吧，嗯

11:10

And but you're not just doing events. I know that. So what else what else you got going on there

而且，不过你不只是办活动，这我知道。那你还有什么，还有什么在那边搞的？

11:15

Well, yeah, I think that's been some of the biggest surprises for me is how

嗯，是啊，我觉得这对我来说算是最大的几个惊喜之一，就是

11:19

The community has rallied and there's so much interest not only from the member companies of the agentic AI foundation

社区已经凝聚起来了，而且兴趣特别大，不只是来自 agentic AI foundation 的成员公司

11:26

Now there's over

现在已经有超过

11:28

250 which is wild to think about how many companies yeah, they want to be members

250 家，想想有多少公司，真的太疯狂了，对，他们想成为成员

11:33

And they want to be a part of this movement right and then we've got

而且他们想成为这场运动的一部分，对吧，然后我们还有

11:38

Ambassadors around the globe

全球各地的大使

11:40

So we opened up the ambassador program and there was over a thousand applications of people that wanted to be an ambassador

所以我们推出了大使计划，结果收到了一千多份申请，都是想当大使的人

11:47

And we also set up these local chapters of community events so anybody can organize a

我们还设立了这些本地分会，专门办社区活动，这样任何人都可以组织一个

11:56

Community event and now we're in over 80 cities and there's like

社区活动，现在我们已经覆盖了 80 多个城市，而且大概有

12:01

250 different

250 个不同的

12:03

Community chapter leads and all of that is just to say like it's kind of taken on its own thing. It's yeah

社区分会负责人，而这一切只是想说明，它已经有点自己发展起来了。是的

12:12

That's a big thing. Yeah, that's huge like pretty quick. I mean considering you're only talking a few months

这是件大事。是啊，这太厉害了，而且这么快。我是说，考虑到这才几个月

12:19

um, yeah, it's uh so it's

嗯，是啊，这……呃，所以它……

12:22

I'm you the lyrics foundations gonna be like when we took them on the oh my gosh the babies growing up pretty quick here, so you know

我是说，你们知道，lyrics foundations 到时候会像我们当初接手他们时那样，哦我的天，这些宝宝长得可真快，所以你知道

12:31

Yeah, it is one of the I don't quote me on it

是啊，它是其中一个——不过别拿我这话当准。

12:34

But I think it's one of the biggest foundations in the lyrics foundation even I would not be surprised

但我觉得它是 lyrics foundation 里最大的基石之一，连我都不会惊讶。

12:41

Yeah, I mean, you know when you when you think about just like I mean so much has happened

是啊，我是说，你知道，当你……当你想想，就像，我是说，发生了太多事了。

12:47

You know just since we talked last so much has happened

你知道，就自从我们上次聊过之后，发生了太多事。

12:51

You know the this world the the the the rise of agentics you know agentics were around less time we talked

你知道，这个……这个世界，那个那个那个……agentics 的崛起，你知道，我们上次聊的时候，agentics 还没出现多久。

12:57

But they was still in the absolute infancy um and at this point it is it is

但它们当时还处在绝对的婴儿期，嗯，而现在它已经，已经……

13:04

Dominating everything going forward and just growing and and you know that sounds very hypey

正在主导接下来的一切，并且不断增长，而且你知道，这听起来很像在炒作。

13:09

And I apologize for that, but um, it's it's just uh, you know the monster gets bigger and bigger

我为这一点道歉，但嗯，就是，呃，你知道，这个怪物变得越来越大。

13:15

Well, let me tell you because I was the one who was probably the biggest naysayer on the hype

好吧，让我跟你说，因为我可能就是那个对这波 hype 最不看好的人

13:22

naming

命名

13:24

And agents and it's like yeah, yeah, I remember using what was it like baby agi

还有 agents，然后就是那种，对对，我记得当时用的是那个，叫什么来着，baby agi

13:30

Back in the day and just getting mad because all it did was give me so it got stuck in a recursive loop

当年，我气得不行，因为它除了给我……就啥也没干，结果它卡进了一个 recursive loop

13:37

And I got like a $80 api bill from open AI

然后我还收到了一张来自 open AI 的大概 80 美元的 API 账单

13:41

And it was like these agents don't work dude what's going on yeah, but

然后我就想，这些 agents 根本没用啊兄弟，这到底怎么回事？对，但是

13:48

Since then you're right man like I'm fully bought in now and I am

从那以后，你说得对，老哥，我现在是完全买账了，而且我

13:54

The first one to say that I was way wrong like they were coming and they came hard and I want to tell you about

我是第一个承认自己错得离谱的人，就像它们要来了，而且来势汹汹，我想跟你说说

14:01

The newest stuff that I've been doing specifically with like computer use yeah go for that man

我最近一直在搞的那些最新东西，特别是像 computer use 这种，对，那就说这个吧，哥们

14:08

I feel like my life has changed and there's something that happened. I will say

我感觉我的生活都变了，而且确实发生了点什么。我得说

14:15

In the latest open AI model

在最新的 OpenAI model

14:19

Release which came out what it's 5.6 is what we're at right now spin out like a bit

发布，出来的时候——是多少来着——5.6，就是我们现在所在的版本，稍微有点跑题

14:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so since that came out if you specifically

对对对，所以自从那个出来之后，如果你专门

14:31

Use the computer use skill

用 computer use 这个 skill

14:33

It is so good. There are very few things that I can throw out it that it does not accomplish

它真的太好了。我丢给它的东西里，它完不成的少之又少

14:39

Which is wild because okay, so now I'd never have to worry about getting

这太离谱了，因为，好吧，所以现在我再也不用担心拿到...

14:45

apis for anything

任何东西都有 API

14:48

I don't have to worry about oh, but I can't reach that data because of some

我不用去担心，哦，但我没法访问那个 data，因为某些

14:53

block or some thing that's wrong with it and

block，或者它本身有什么问题，而且

14:58

Granted, this is me as a personal

当然，这是我作为个人

15:02

Use type thing like I'm I'm able to do that

使用场景之类的东西，就像我，我能做到这一点

15:05

I have my three or four different g-mails logged in and so computer use can go and look at all three or four of them

我登录了三四个不同的 g-mails，所以 computer use 可以去查看这三四个账号

15:12

Which I know that with one. I can't remember if it's Hermes or Grockbaugh

我知道用其中一个可以。我记不清是 Hermes 还是 Grockbaugh

15:16

You can also set up multiple accounts

你也可以设置多个账号

15:20

But just to be able to like use that throw at it like hey check all of my emails and give me the daily briefing

但光是能像那样直接甩给它用，比如，嘿，把我所有邮件都查一遍，然后给我一份每日简报

15:27

And also check slack and give me a daily briefing and not just one of the slack work spaces that I'm in

还要查一下 Slack，也给我一份每日简报，而且不只是我在的某一个 Slack workspace

15:33

Like all five of them

而是全部五个

15:35

Yeah, and so you don't have to worry you don't have to fiddle with any connections or anything

对，所以你不用担心，也不用去折腾任何连接之类的

15:40

You can just go and it'll use computer use and that is great. That's like quality of life thing

你直接上就行，它会用 computer use，这很棒。这就像是提升生活质量的那种东西

15:46

but what was wild to me is now

但让我觉得很疯狂的是，现在

15:51

I can set up these workflows or triggers. I guess is what you call them

我可以设置这些 workflows 或者 triggers。我猜是这么叫的吧

15:57

That hey when you see something then just do this automatically

就是那种，嘿，当你看到某个东西时，就自动做这件事

16:01

So for example one of these things is as you know

所以举个例子，其中一件事就是，如你所知

16:05

We had all these conferences all over the world and I've been taking a lot of flights

我们在世界各地开了所有这些会议，我一直在坐很多航班

16:10

Well, I will buy the flight with computer use

嗯，我会用 computer use 来买机票

16:13

I just say find me the best flight on this day to this day and then before it actually pays

我就说，帮我找从这天到这天最好的航班，然后在它实际付款之前

16:19

I'm the one who actually will click the button because sure

实际上是我来点那个按钮，因为，当然

16:22

We're still not at that point

我们还没到那个地步

16:24

But or I need a few more zeros in my bank account before I'm cool with it being at that point. I'm the same

但是，或者说，我需要我的银行账户里再多几个零，才能接受它到那个地步。我也一样

16:30

I get it. It's it's it's funny

我懂。这，这，这很好笑

16:33

When you say that because I'm you know like I'm doing I'm having agents to do all the things

当你说，因为我，你知道，就像我在做的，我让 agents 去做所有事情

16:38

And in my my focus has been all a little bit different use case in

而我的，我的重点一直是，有点不同的 use case，在

16:43

Swarms of agents attack where you have many agents addressing really complex things at once

Swarms of agents attack 中，就是你有许多 agents 同时处理非常复杂的事情

16:49

But then it's it's funny like if I'm doing something like you and it's my personal bank account

但后来，这，这挺搞笑的，就像如果我在做像你那样的事，而且是我的个人银行账户

16:54

You know and you know, which doesn't have anywhere near as many zeros as I wish it did

你知道，而且你知道，里面的零远没有我希望的那么多

16:59

I'm the same way. I'm like I'm like you know that very well would you really have quite a small purchase

我也一样。我就像，我就像，你知道，你很清楚，你真的会做一笔挺小的购买吗？

17:04

But I'm like okay, I so I I have that same like reservation like they're doing amazing things

但我会想，好吧，所以我，我也有那种同样的，嗯，保留态度，就像它们在做很厉害的事情

17:10

You know what you can get agents to go do and yet there's still that that intrinsic trust factor

你知道你能让 agents 去做什么，但依然有那种，那种内在的信任因素

17:16

And if you and I are having that with the kinds of you know the fact that this is what we do

而且如果你和我，你知道，在面对这类事情时，事实就是这就是我们做的事

17:21

Then I know we have to deal with that with general population in you know as they come on

那我知道，等普通大众也慢慢加入进来的时候，我们还得和他们一起应对这些，你知道

17:27

So it's kind of it's interesting to see the technology running so

所以，某种程度上，看着这项技术这样跑起来，真的挺有意思的

17:31

You know into like this amazing space that that is beyond really where anybody was predicting this fast and then

你知道，进入了一个特别惊人的领域，真的远远超出了任何人预测它能这么快达到的程度，然后

17:38

Simultaneously like like do I want it to buy the movie tickets for me

同时，就像，就像，我到底想不想让它帮我买电影票呢

17:42

Well, okay, that's not too expensive. I'll just tell it to do it, you know

嗯，行吧，那也不算太贵。我就直接让它去做，你知道

17:47

Totally

完全没错

17:48

You know what though I

不过你知道吗，我

17:50

I've seen and I've heard of my friends saying like they'll set up rules where if it's under 20 bucks

我见过也听过我朋友说他们会设规则，比如低于20块的话

17:56

Yeah, I've shouldn't I've done that

对，我不应该，我做过这个

17:59

I'm still afraid of that because I'm like yeah, it can just buy something for 20 bucks 20 times and then I'm pissed

我还是有点怕这个，因为我会想，对啊，它就可以20块20块地买个20次，然后我就气死了

18:07

You know because we figure out we've all heard those stories

你知道吧，因为我们也算过，我们都听过那些故事

18:10

So I'm not quite there yet, but I wanted to mention the the different workflows that I have set up around it

所以我还没完全到那一步，但我想提一下我围绕它设置的那些不同的workflow

18:18

So for example this workflow of buy my ticket get the ticket cool. I don't have to fill out any forms anymore

比如说这个workflow，买我的票，拿到票，酷。我不用再填任何表格了

18:25

Which is absolutely beautiful like on the internet

这真的太美好了，就像在互联网上

18:30

You know how many pointless forms you have to fill out which are just your name and your phone number and whatever like

你知道你得填多少毫无意义的表格，就是你的名字、电话号码什么的

18:38

Passport number and I never have it memorized so then I have to go and search for it and find that number and boom

护照号码，我从来都记不住，所以还得去翻去找那个号码，然后 boom

18:43

I got it. Well now I don't have to do that because I have my all my information

我找到了。不过现在我不需要这么做了，因为我所有的信息

18:49

Stored in a document that the agent can reference and then it'll buy the flight and when it comes time to check in

都存在一个文档里，agent 可以查，然后它就会买机票，到了该值机的时候

18:56

I just told an agent hey monitor my inbox and if you ever see a

我就直接跟 agent 说，嘿，帮我盯着收件箱，如果你看到

19:02

Email come through that says it's time for you to check in just go check in

有一封邮件进来，说该你值机了，就直接去值机

19:06

You don't even have to ask me just go and do it check in send me the boarding pass to my phone

你甚至都不用问我，直接去做就行，值机，然后把登机牌发到我手机上

19:13

And so now I don't ever have to work at any of that which

所以现在这些事我完全不用自己弄了，这

19:17

Total side note. I'm pretty sure like checking in why do we have to do that still somebody needs to explain why

完全跑个题。我挺确定，就像值机，为什么我们现在还得做这个？真得有人解释一下为什么

19:24

Checking in this still a thing. I'm not sure

值机现在还是回事儿吗？我不确定

19:27

It's not or no. I spend so much money on a flight

不是，还是不用？我机票花这么多钱

19:31

Who's gonna just miss I don't know that's for me and I'm sure there's plenty of people that will check in and they still miss their flight

谁会就这么错过航班呢？我不知道，反正对我来说是这样，而且我确定有很多人会值机，结果还是错过航班

19:38

So it's not like it's a good gauge of who's actually going to show up for the flight. It's a total

所以这并不能很好地衡量谁真的会来登机。这完全是个

19:44

Non-agent non AI tangent. I just suspect the people missing the flight like they checked it

跟 agent 无关、跟 AI 无关的题外话。我只是怀疑，那些错过航班的人明明值机了

19:50

I just don't think there's a strong correlation between the two

我就是觉得这两者之间没有很强的相关性

19:54

It doesn't make any sense to me. It's I'm sure there is there is somebody at one of these airlines out there listening right now

这对我来说完全说不通。我敢肯定，现在某家航空公司里就有人在听

20:00

Going oh these guys totally don't get it. They don't understand. There's a very clear reason we do this and we acknowledge that for that person just to let you know

心里想：哦，这帮人完全不懂。他们不明白。我们这么做有一个非常明确的理由，而且我们承认这一点——那位听众，只是想让你知道一下

20:09

We just don't understand. Yeah, we don't get it. So okay fair enough back to computer use

我们就是不明白。是啊，我们搞不懂。那好吧，有道理，回到 computer use 吧

20:16

So I have something like that going. I also have a

所以我也在做类似的事。我还有一个

20:20

Great use case that I had this morning was I need to update my Spanish driver's license to a German driver's license and

今天早上我碰到的很棒的一个 use case 是，我需要把我的西班牙驾照换成德国驾照，然后

20:27

And so I

然后我就

20:30

Before computer use was going and taking screenshots and then giving it to my agent and saying it or giving it just to the chat

在 computer use 之前，我会去截图，然后把它交给我的 agent，跟它说，或者直接丢给 chat

20:38

Really, it wasn't even an agent and saying what does this say? What should I click on where should I put my information?

其实，它甚至都不是一个 agent，我就问：这上面写的是什么？我该点哪里？我的信息该填在哪？

20:45

Because this is a perfect example of the German government in my small town does not have an API

因为这就是一个完美的例子：我住的小镇的德国政府没有 API

20:53

That my coding agent can access and submit something through right, but what it does have is a

能让我的 coding agent 访问并通过它提交东西，对吧，但它有的是一个

21:02

Web page where I can go and submit something or I can have computer use go and submit something

一个 Web page，我可以去上面提交点东西，或者我可以让 computer use 去提交点东西

21:08

So now it just did it it created my appointment and then it created a calendar invite for me

所以现在它就直接做了，它创建了我的预约，然后又给我创建了一个 calendar invite

21:15

So I know when the appointment is and it said everything I needed to bring and it said my cancellation number

所以我知道预约是什么时候，它还说了我需要带的所有东西，还说了我的取消编号

21:20

It said my like main number blah blah that's all there and I didn't have to worry about it at all

它说了我那个像是主号码 blah blah，全都在那儿，我完全不用操心

21:25

And I changed that like three different times and all I have to do is say like change it to a different day

而且我大概改了三次，我要做的就只是说，比如，把它改到另一天

21:29

Because I can't do it on this day anymore. Yeah, so I'm curious like

因为我这天没法再去了。对，所以我很好奇，就是

21:34

What do you think are some really you've talked a little bit about how you're using it

你觉得有哪些真的……你稍微聊过一点你是怎么用它的

21:38

What do you think or some really good opportunities for folks watching or listening out there as they're listening and they've

你觉得，或者说，对正在看或正在听的大家来说，有哪些真正好的机会，在他们听的时候，而且他们已经……

21:43

Here sort of some of the things that you're talking about what would you what would you suggest to go try out like what what are some of the

这里算是一些你在聊的东西，你会，你会建议去试试什么，比如，有哪些……

21:50

What are some of the the fruits that maybe people haven't picked from yet and you're just like oh man

有哪些果实可能是人们还没摘的，然后你就会说，天哪

21:55

This is amazing, you know, just like other than flights think for me the biggest eye-opener of getting it right was

这太神奇了，你知道，就像除了航班之外，我觉得，对我来说，真正做对之后最大的开眼之处是

22:04

Now anytime I encounter a forum when I'm using the internet right I'm going through my day to day

现在，每当我上网的时候遇到一个论坛，对吧，就在我过日常生活的时候

22:11

And I'm using the internet and I encounter a forum and it has this big

我在上网，我遇到一个论坛，它就会有个很大的

22:15

Trigger that goes off in my head and I'm like why didn't I ask computer use to do this whole task because I just got to this point where I

触发开关在我脑子里响起来，我就会想，为什么我没让 computer use 来做这整个任务，因为我已经到了这个地步，我

22:22

Realized oh forms. I don't have to fill out anymore. That's something that is good enough to be done by computer use

意识到，哦，表单。我再也不用填了。这种事已经足够好到可以交给 computer use 去做了

22:28

So I just go and I I know I'm like oh right. Let's see if let's see if they can do that boom

所以我就直接去，我，我知道我会想，哦对。看看，看看它们能不能做到，砰

22:35

So that would be one anytime you encounter a forum on the internet

所以那会是其中一个，每当你在网上遇到一个论坛的时候

22:38

However, I will caveat this with a conversation that I just had yesterday with my friend Sam who was saying like

不过，我要用我昨天刚跟我朋友 Sam 的一段对话来做个补充说明，他当时在说

22:46

This is such a thing that you can do if you're beat a C

这确实是那种如果你是 B2C 就能做的事

22:50

But if you're trying to do this and be to be like good luck, dude. Yeah, you're gonna go tell your employees

但如果你想做这个，还想做到那种程度，那就祝你好运了，兄弟。是啊，你得去告诉你的员工

22:57

That's exactly where I was gonna ask you next. I literally like was in my head

那正是我接下来要问你的地方。我当时脑子里真的就在想

23:02

I'm like, oh, I know where I want to go and that's it and that is like with the inevitability of the B2B use case

我就想，哦，我知道我想往哪儿走了，就这样，而那就像是伴随着 B2B use case 的必然性

23:09

Being an agentic to agentic use case where you're doing agents interoperating with agents beyond your borker

就是一个 agentic 对 agentic 的 use case，你在让 agents 和 agents 进行 interoperating，在你的 borker 之外

23:16

In other words, you know that some other entity another commercial entity or whatever it is that you're talking about

换句话说，你知道，某个其他实体，另一个商业实体，或者不管你说的到底是什么

23:22

And instead of being static APIs

而不是静态的 APIs

23:25

That your agent is going and talking to or your web scraping, you know with the agent and doing the kind of the form stuff

也就是你的 agent 去对接、去交互的，或者你的 web scraping，你知道，用 agent 去做那些 form 相关的事

23:31

That we're talking about

我们正在聊的这些

23:33

What are your thoughts around when when is every organization out there going to have

你怎么看，什么时候每个组织都会拥有

23:39

An agentic interface and which your agents, you know as you're doing what you're describing are just interoperating giving it a lot more

一个 agentic interface，而你的 agents，你知道，就像你描述的那样，只是在互相 interoperating，让它多出很多

23:48

fluidity and

fluidity 和

23:50

dynamic

dynamic capability

23:51

capability

能力

23:53

Because you're doing an agent agent interaction which kind of comedy things it's no longer just the static API that your agent has to

因为你在做的是 agent 和 agent 的互动，这有点搞笑，它不再只是你的 agent 必须去

23:59

To navigate what are your thoughts around that and with like like how far out do you think it is before we get to that

应对的 static API。你对此有什么想法？还有，像，像，你觉得我们离走到那一步还有多远？

24:05

Well, I think that's one reason that mcp is so popular is because of those use cases

嗯，我觉得这是 mcp 这么受欢迎的一个原因，就是因为那些 use cases

24:11

And it feels like that's the way that the industry has standardized on

而且感觉这就是行业已经标准化采用的方式

24:16

Being able to give agents access to different systems right and but then what we have to do is we have to wait for

让 agents 能访问不同的 systems，对吧？但接下来我们得做的是，我们得等

24:25

Everyone to have mcp servers that are good enough for my agent just to pick up and use

每个人都得有足够好的 mcp servers，让我的 agent 可以拿来就用

24:32

At will and use well so that I can get what I need done

随心所欲地用，而且用得好，这样我就能把我要做的事完成

24:37

Which feels like there still needs to be some

这感觉像是仍然还需要有一些

24:41

maturing that needs to happen before we get to that point and so that's why it's beautiful with

在走到那一步之前，还需要经历一段成熟的过程，所以这就是为什么它很美，配上

24:47

Computer use because you don't have to wait for the other person to set up an mcp server

Computer use，因为你不用等另一个人去搭一个 mcp server

24:53

Or you don't have to go and build an mcp server to enable that and there's a lot of these use cases that

或者你也不用自己去搭一个 mcp server 来实现那个，而且有很多这样的 use case，至于

25:00

Who knows if they even are gonna build an mcp server like the German government DMV

谁知道它们到底会不会去搭一个 mcp server，比如德国政府的 DMV

25:07

I'm not sure they ever are gonna have an mcp server that my agent can go and talk to right so

我不确定它们到底会不会有一个 mcp server，能让我的 agent 去跟它对话，对吧，所以

25:13

That's going back to this b2c use case in a way

这某种程度上又回到了这个 b2c use case

25:16

But if you think about it what what's incredible for me is us consumers are

但如果你想想，对我来说很不可思议的是，我们消费者正在

25:21

Tasting this like forbidden fruit of

品尝着这像禁果一样的……

25:25

Wow things can really be that easy like it can just work

哇，事情真能这么简单，就好像它自己就能跑起来

25:30

And then you know that that pressure is going to start building

然后你知道，那种压力就会开始累积

25:36

On the software that we have and we're using

压在我们手上有、而且正在用的软件上

25:39

In our day-to-day lives at the office like that's how I feel I feel like it's coming

在我们办公室的日常里，这就是我的感觉，我觉得它快来了

25:45

It's just gonna put a lot of pressure on hey, this is this doesn't have to be like this or we don't have

它就会施加很大压力，嘿，这事不必非得这样，或者我们不必

25:51

To be blocked by something can we figure out a way to make it work with

被什么东西卡住，我们能不能想出办法让它配合起来

25:56

I mean, I don't know how it's gonna play out because I will

我是说，我不知道它会怎么发展，因为我会

26:01

Say that there's a security nightmare happening if you just are doing like computer use everyone at your company now has

说，如果你只是在做类似 computer use 这种事，而你们公司现在每个人都有，那就会出现一场安全噩梦

26:08

Computer use going on all five of their

Computer use 正在他们所有的五个

26:12

Emails and all of your ERP systems where you're like like on the

邮箱和你们所有的 ERP 系统上进行，你就像是在

26:17

Man basically any anything that you can think of God that sounds so dangerous, but

老兄，基本上你能想到的任何东西，天哪，那听起来太危险了，但是

26:23

Wow, it is like quality of life there. I think I think you know you talk about the security issue

哇，那简直就是生活质量。我觉得，我觉得，你知道，你谈到了 security issue

26:29

And I think like you're at I think you're at the place you know at the center of you know at the foundation

而且我觉得，就像你处在，我觉得你处在那个位置，你知道，在中心，你知道，在 foundation 这一层

26:35

Where as good security

而随着好的 security

26:38

architectures are further developed they will find their way into the foundation probably for purposes of getting

architectures 进一步发展，它们会进入 foundation，可能是为了获得

26:46

You know, except widespread acceptance to the world. I think

你知道，被全世界广泛接受。我觉得

26:49

There's another point. I'm gonna I'm gonna diverge hard as you were doing that. Oh nice

还有一点。我要我要像你刚才那样强行跑个题。哦不错

26:54

I'm as you're talking about that like I think that what you were describing there is very much the story

当你在聊那个的时候，我觉得你描述的那个就是整个故事

27:02

Starting with with with us and the people watching this because these are AI native folks

从我们和看这个的人开始，因为这些都是 AI native 的人

27:07

You know that you that that are that the folks that are showing up for your podcast and showing up for this podcast are folks that

你知道，那些来听你 podcast 和来听这个 podcast 的人，都是那种...

27:15

You know, they they work in it. They care enough about it and they're following that. I'm curious like

你知道，他们就在这行工作。他们足够关心，也一直在跟进。我很好奇

27:21

What's it gonna take to bring like because we're all kind of going holy cow. Look at what I can do now

要怎样才能让...因为我们都惊叹不已。看看我现在能做什么

27:26

And it was just kind of like you're describing what what does it take to bring like we're only now getting to where you know

就像你描述的那样，要怎样才能让...我们现在才刚到你知道的那个阶段

27:33

The general population is starting to get comfortable using you know, just kind of what seems very old-fashioned

大众开始习惯使用，你知道，就是那种看起来很过时的东西

27:40

You know chat, you know, you know, whether it's Gemini and you know or or chat GPT or you know or or quad or whatever

你知道的，chat，你知道吧，你知道吧，不管是 Gemini，你知道的，或者或者 ChatGPT，或者你知道，或者或者 quad，或者随便什么

27:49

They're just coming along there. What does it take to bring that in not only for like just so they can do this

它们正慢慢发展起来。要把这些引进来，需要什么，不光是，像，只是为了让他们能做这个

27:56

But you know as they're worrying about jobs and all the bigger things that everyone is so concerned about in the world

但你懂的，当他们担心工作，还有世界上大家都在操心的那些更大的事情的时候

28:01

How how does that how does that all like how do you bring the the masses that are not I you know

怎么，怎么会，那整体上，就像，你怎么让那些不是，我，你知道

28:09

AI native

28:10

Into into being able to do this to get the benefits because right now they're just all scared to death, you know

的大众，能够做这件事、获得好处，因为现在他们真的都吓死了，你知道吧

28:16

Yeah, I get that more and more. I remember back in the day when

是啊，我越来越能理解这一点了。我记得当年

28:21

Google came out or when the search engines came out the internet came out and it was

Google 出来的时候，或者 search engines 出来、internet 出来的时候，而且那时候

28:26

Magical that you could go to a website or you could search something and find information on the internet. Yeah, and

你能去一个网站，或者搜点什么，就能在互联网上找到信息，这太神奇了。对，而且

28:33

We were there was a lot of people that were just early adopters and they were very early on that and using it

我们那时候，有很多人就是 early adopters，他们很早就开始接触并且用这个了

28:41

It feels a little bit like that now in that

现在感觉也有点像那样，因为

28:45

So my wife is not very technologically savvy. She avoids phones and computers at all costs

所以我老婆不太懂科技。她是能不碰手机和电脑就不碰

28:52

But today she had to cancel her PayPal account and then start a new one and

但今天她不得不取消她的 PayPal 账户，然后再开一个新的，然后

29:00

I told her okay watch this and I downloaded chat gbt

我跟她说，好，你看这个，然后我下载了 chat gbt

29:05

On her computer and then I got her setup

在她电脑上，然后我帮她设置好了

29:08

I also got her setup with whisper flow so you can just talk to the computer and I I gave it to I said hey look

我还帮她设置好了 whisper flow，这样你就可以直接跟电脑说话，然后我我把它给她，我说，嘿，你看

29:14

I need to

我需要

29:15

Get rid of my PayPal account and I need to start a new one

把我的 PayPal 账户注销掉，然后我得开一个新的

29:19

Let's start with just like deleting this PayPal account and like canceling everything that's related to it

咱们就先从这个 PayPal 账户删起，然后把跟它相关的东西都取消掉

29:26

And it did that and my wife's eyes lit up because for her that is so much time that she would have had to have spent

然后它真这么做了，我老婆眼睛都亮了，因为对她来说，那本来得花她好多时间

29:33

Especially because she's not yeah, it's incredible

尤其是因为她不是……对，这太不可思议了

29:37

So you have those experiences for someone and there it's instantly bought in it's like oh okay

所以你让别人有了这种体验，他们马上就买账了，就像“哦，好吧”

29:45

So tell me what else can I do here? Let me try and then the person just tries and there's not a lot

那你告诉我，我在这儿还能做什么？让我试试，然后那个人就试了，可并没有多少

29:51

That's what I'm saying like there's not a lot that I throw at it these days that it can't do

这就是我在说的，现在我扔给它的东西里，没多少是它做不了的

29:56

And I keep going back to like my personal computer you stuff which is great

而且我总会回到像我的 personal computer 那套东西上，那个很棒

30:02

It going to the b2b stuff though

不过说到 B2B 那套东西就不一样了

30:05

This is where I really feel like you're putting pressure on what we do at work because if what we do at work

这就是我真正觉得你在给我们在工作里做的事情施压的地方，因为如果我们在工作里做的事情

30:11

Still feels cumbersome or we have to be really technical in order to get the advances that AI brings then we're doing it wrong

仍然感觉很繁琐，或者我们得变得非常 technical 才能获得 AI 带来的进步，那我们就做错了

30:20

It really feels like that's not how it should be

真的感觉不应该是这样的

30:24

And so how can we enable that type of thing but with all of the enter pricey features you know that you

所以，我们怎么才能实现那类东西，同时又带上所有那些很 enterprise 的功能，你知道，那些你

30:32

The organizations have come to grow and they've loved over these years, you know just like a role-based access control

各个组织这些年来逐渐发展起来并喜欢上的，你知道，就像 role-based access control

30:38

There's one and so I guess if you're using computer use you've already got your roles set out and so you're not going to have problems with that but

有一个，所以我猜如果你在用 computer use，你已经把你的 roles 设定好了，所以你不会在这方面有问题，但是

30:48

There's a lot of I will not be naive and say the

有很多……我不会天真地说

30:52

It's the end all to be all especially inside of the enterprise. It could cause a lot of problems

它就是万能的终极答案，尤其在企业内部。它可能会带来很多问题

30:57

However, man the thing that is great for me is using it on my personal use cases and I'll give you another one

不过，老兄，对我来说很棒的一点是把它用在我个人的 use cases 上，我再给你举一个

31:04

I've got like 20 of them that I've been doing because as you asked and I think it's good to like stimulate folks creativity when they hear it

我大概有 20 个这样的例子一直在做，因为就像你问的，我觉得大家听到的时候能激发他们的创造力是件好事

31:13

I have this 36 hour live stream coming up and I want to

我马上要做一个 36 小时的直播，我想

31:18

Reach out to everyone that I've had a conversation with on LinkedIn

主动联系所有我在 LinkedIn 上聊过的人

31:23

That's been like an actual two-way conversation and it's been a few turns back and forth, right?

就是那种真正的双向对话，来回聊过几轮的，对吧？

31:29

so acquaintances you could put in

所以算是熟人，你可以归到这一类

31:32

parentheses and

括号，还有

31:34

So what I did is I told computer use I said go and look through all my LinkedIn because LinkedIn has this API that you cannot

所以我是这么做的：我跟 computer use 说，去把我 LinkedIn 上所有东西都翻一遍，因为 LinkedIn 有个 API，你根本没法

31:42

It's notoriously hard like you can't get stuff from LinkedIn's API. It's not like

它出了名的难，就是你没法从 LinkedIn 的 API 里拿到东西。它不像

31:48

X where you can pay and then you get everything. It's fully locked down. So

X 那样，你付钱就能拿到所有东西。它完全是锁死的。所以

31:53

I was in there and I was like I want to analyze all of my DMs and see who I've interacted with

我就在里面，然后我心想，我想分析我所有的 DMs，看看我跟谁互动过

32:00

A bit and then we make this short list of people that I can reach out to and let them know that I'm having this

一点点，然后我们列一个简短的名单，里面是我可以联系的人，告诉他们我要办这个

32:07

live stream event and what it did was instead of just going through all of my

直播活动，而它做的是，不是只是翻遍我所有的

32:13

DMs it was like oh well, you know what?

DMs，它就像，哦，好吧，你猜怎么着？

32:16

I just found this ability to download all your data

我刚发现居然能下载你所有的 data

32:20

So it downloaded all of my data

所以它就把我所有的 data 都下载了

32:22

but LinkedIn has to package it up and then send it to your email

但 LinkedIn 得把它打包好，再发到你的 email

32:26

over 48 hour span

在 48 小时的时间段里

32:29

So what it did is it's set a reminder for itself to just kept checking my email and so then once it got my data

所以它做的就是给自己设了个提醒，让它不断检查我的 email，然后一拿到我的 data

32:37

Then it analyzed everything it created this short list of 500 people and then it created personalized messages

然后它分析了所有内容，整理出一份 500 人的精简名单，然后生成了个性化消息

32:43

That I could send them to let them know about the 36 hour live stream

这样我就能发给他们，让他们知道这个 36 小时 live stream

32:46

But then I went once that further because AI and why not right I said will create a personalized media kit for each person in case they need some kind of inspiration

但后来我又更进一步，因为 AI 嘛，为什么不呢，对吧？我说，那就给每个人都做一份个性化的 media kit，万一他们需要点灵感呢

32:57

Yeah, and so every single person has their own website that says like hey Chris you're awesome for doing this

对，所以每一个人都有自己的 website，上面写着，嘿 Chris，你做这个真是太棒了

33:05

And here's some inspiration in case you want to post this you can just copy paste or here's some prompts if you want to write it yourself

而且这里有一些灵感，万一你想发这个，你可以直接 copy paste，或者如果你想自己写，这里有一些 prompts

33:12

And by the way, here's some funny photos of me if you want to add those

还有顺便说一句，这里有一些我的搞笑照片，如果你想加进去的话

33:16

But I would love it if you share about this live stream event

但我真的很希望你能分享这个 live stream event

33:19

And so now those are firing off and you may say that

所以现在这些都在纷纷发出去，你可能会说

33:24

Is absolutely ridiculous because I took all of the personalization out of it and tried to make it as personalized as possible still

这简直太荒谬了，因为我把所有的 personalization 都去掉了，却还是尽量让它尽可能 personalized

33:32

Or maybe it's cool. I don't know

或者也许这很酷。我也不知道

33:34

But that's another thing that I've been doing over the past 24 hours very cool man

但这是我过去 24 小时里一直在做的另一件事，非常酷，兄弟

33:40

There is uh, I've had some similar things. I don't have time to cover it at all today

这个，呃，我也遇到过一些类似的事。我今天完全没时间把这个展开讲

33:45

But like I love the inspiration

但，怎么说呢，我很喜欢这种启发

33:48

That that you're offering and I'm hoping that folks watching or listening are are kind of thinking of the the things that they can go do and stuff

就是你带来的这种启发，我也希望正在看或正在听的大家，多少都在想着自己能去做点什么之类的

33:57

I one of the things I want to make sure that we get in

我，有件事我想确保我们能聊到

34:00

Is is I know I know you have an interest in kind of harnesses and the current state and some of the the challenges around that

就是，就是，我知道，我知道你对 harnesses，还有它现在的状态，以及围绕它的一些挑战挺感兴趣

34:08

I wanted to uh to make sure we fit that into today

我想，呃，确保我们今天能把这个安排进去

34:11

Uh, I'll just I'll toss the ball to you and let you run with that because I know you have some thinking about it

呃，我就直接把球抛给你，让你接着聊吧，因为我知道你对这个有一些思考

34:17

Let me keep labbing. Yeah, this is the episode nobody asked for but we're getting somehow

让我继续 labbing 吧。是啊，这就是那期没人要求做的节目，但我们还是不知怎么就做出来了

34:22

I'm having a good time, man. We always have a good time. So let's go for it. Hopefully yeah, hopefully I've been I've inspired you and please write me

我玩得挺开心，兄弟。我们总是玩得挺开心。那就来吧。希望，对，希望我启发了你，请给我写信

34:31

If you use computer use and you find a rough edge where it doesn't do something

如果你用 computer use，然后发现一个粗糙的边缘，就是它没做到某件事

34:36

But man these different like five 10 step procedures where it does stuff. There's it's incredible

但哥们，这些不同的、像五步十步的流程，它能在里面做事。这，太不可思议了

34:43

But anyway on the harnesses and I want to talk to you about is really just how much of the harness is being

不过总之，关于 harnesses，我想跟你聊的其实就是，有多少 harness 正在

34:50

blurred into the actual model it feels like and how we've got now these

被模糊进实际的 model 里，感觉是这样，以及我们现在有了这些

34:57

You know like cloud code harness doesn't there's a whole lot of things wrong with it right now today with like

你知道，就像 cloud code harness，现在今天它有一大堆问题，比如

35:04

Fable and opus five that's again time stamping it people are not happy with the cloud code experience and I myself

Fable 和 opus five，这又是在给它打时间戳了，人们对 cloud code 体验不满意，而我自己

35:12

Have pretty much stopped using it, which is wild because I don't know six months ago

基本上已经不用它了，这太离谱了，因为我不知道，六个月前

35:17

I put up with all the crap that anthropic was doing. I put up with everything

我忍了 anthropic 干的所有破事。我什么都忍了

35:23

Maybe not all the crap. I love anthropic. I love everybody there

也许不是所有破事。我爱 anthropic。我爱那里的每一个人

35:26

But I put up with everything that was going on. There's so much drama and the news all the time

但我忍了当时发生的一切。总是有那么多抓马和新闻

35:31

Because they had such a superior product it was so good and

因为他们有一个如此优秀的产品，它太好了，而且

35:37

Then somehow or another when they

然后不知怎么的，当他们

35:41

R-eld this last model and you try and bring a lot of this harness into the model or I guess

RL 了这最后一个 model，然后你试着把很多这种 harness 带入 model 里，或者我猜

35:48

It inherently becomes blurry because they have their system prompt and after the world uses the model for long enough

它本质上就变得模糊了，因为他们有他们的 system prompt，而且等世界使用这个 model 足够久之后

35:56

That system prompt just like keeps getting longer and longer and longer right and then

那个 system prompt 就一直在变得越来越长，越来越长，越来越长，对吧，然后

36:00

They come out with a new model and that system prompt can shrink again because all of that long system prompt from the last model

他们推出一个新模型，那个 system prompt 就又能缩小了，因为上一个模型里那些很长的 system prompt

36:08

Gets almost like R-eld into the new model

几乎就像是 R-eld 进新模型里了一样

36:11

But that can create some weird janky stuff that happens and we're seeing that and I'm sure that

但那样可能会搞出一些很奇怪、很 janky 的情况，我们正在看到这种情况，而且我敢肯定

36:17

Anthropics next model is going to be incredible and we're going to be right back at like oh wow they were able to do it but

Anthropic 的下一个模型会非常惊艳，我们又会马上回到那种“哇，他们居然做到了”的状态，但

36:24

This is just for me when it comes to harnesses

对我来说，说到 harnesses，这只是我个人的看法

36:27

It is so fascinating to see how

看到这些真的特别有意思

36:31

These I think some people call it the inner harness basically the harness that the labs provide is very much

这些，我觉得有些人叫它 inner harness，基本上就是 labs 提供的那个 harness，非常像是

36:39

Like you are super optimized for the model that is that lab is putting out yeah and

就像你是为那个 lab 正在推出的模型做过超级优化一样，是的，而且

36:47

If you want to have your own kind of harness if you're trying to run pie

如果你想跑 pie，想要有自己那种 harness 的话

36:53

For some of the or Hermes or whatever you know what it's actually like

对某些……或者 Hermes 或者随便什么，你知道它实际上是什么样

36:58

Maybe you're gonna do better on some open source models

也许你在一些 open source models 上会做得更好

37:01

And a lot of these open source models coming from China are really great with that

而且很多来自中国的 open source models 在这方面真的很厉害

37:05

And so there was something that a friend my friend drew told me how a lot of times in pie

所以有这么一件事，我的朋友 Drew 告诉我，很多时候在 pie 里

37:11

You would hear Mario the creator of pie talk about how he had to fight with

你会听到 pie 的创造者 Mario 说他不得不跟

37:16

Claude to not like make these API calls like Claude code API calls then it was like

Claude 斗，让它别做这些 API calls，比如 Claude code API calls，然后就像

37:23

Man, I have to fight against the model to not act like the harness that it was trained with you know

天啊，我得跟这个 model 对抗，让它不要表现得像它训练时用的那个 harness，你知道吗

37:29

So that's fascinating for me to just think about all of that and how it's going to affect the next few

所以对我来说，光是想想这一切，以及它会怎么影响接下来这几

37:36

Months that we're seeing the models come out with what how do you think you know as we as we look at that and and

个月里，我们会看到这些 models 推出什么，你怎么看，你知道，当我们，当我们看这件事的时候，而且，而且

37:42

You know right now like you know with Hermes and pie on the rise um and you know

你知道，现在，就像你知道的，随着 Hermes 和 pie 势头上升，嗯，而且你知道

37:49

With Claude code having been through these user challenges and like I was you know

Claude code 经历了这些用户挑战，而且就像我，你知道

37:54

Like if you go into some of the forums on that you people are just really frustrated with it

就像你要是去一些关于它的论坛，人们真的对它特别抓狂

37:59

And I I have to say I use I use Claude code quite a lot

而且我，我得说，我用，我用 Claude code 用得挺多的

38:02

Uh and uh and there's all sorts of issues

呃，而且，呃，而且有各种各样的问题

38:06

So I it's a love hate relationship. There are things I love about it. There are things I'm like oh god

所以我，这真是又爱又恨的关系。有些地方我很喜欢，有些地方我会想，天哪

38:11

And um and obviously with codex out there like how what it what do you think of either is the future or do you have any

然后，嗯，而且很明显，现在有 codex 在那儿，就像，你怎么看，它是不是未来？或者你有没有任何

38:19

Suggestions on on where things need to go

关于事情该往哪儿走的建议

38:23

Both for users or even for the companies that we have we have folks from all these organizations who tune in so

不管是对用户，还是甚至对我们手上的这些公司——我们有很多来自这些组织的人会收听，所以

38:29

You know like how do you see this shaking out going forward for me?

你知道，就像，你觉得接下来这件事对我来说会怎么发展？

38:33

It's just it would be really wild if the research labs

就是，如果研究实验室

38:37

Didn't have the best product because they're getting all of this data on how folks are

没有最好的产品，那真的太离谱了，因为他们正拿到所有这些 data，关于人们是怎么

38:44

Using their products and then they can incorporate that into the product itself right the model or the harness that they're giving

使用他们产品的，然后他们就能把这些整合到产品本身里，对吧，也就是他们提供的 model 或 harness

38:50

So that's why it's it's crazy to me right now that Claude code is having this moment where it's like man

所以这就是为什么现在对我来说很疯狂，Claude code 正在迎来这种时刻，就像，天哪

38:56

They might have gone a little too far on this they they may have tried to push it too much and

他们可能在这件事上有点过头了，可能有点推得太过了，而且

39:03

The fact that they have all that information and this and this data of people using it and how they're using it

他们拥有所有这些信息，还有人们使用它的这些数据，以及他们是怎么用的，这一点

39:12

Makes me think that they are for sure going to have the best product

让我觉得他们肯定会拥有最好的产品

39:16

However today as it stands that's not necessarily the case. Yeah

不过就目前来看，情况未必如此。是啊

39:20

I think I think there's a lot of work there that needs to be done to improve get because we're seeing

我觉得，我觉得要改进 get 还有很多工作要做，因为我们看到

39:27

Uh kind of to your point. We're seeing user experience very

呃，某种程度上就像你说的。我们看到用户体验非常

39:31

jittery like it you know it goes from being very good to being a struggle

不稳定，就像，你知道，它从非常好变成很费劲

39:36

um

嗯

39:37

And then you know, I see people I mean even things like rolling back to older models with the enclosed code for instance

然后你知道，我看到人们，我是说，甚至像 rollback 到带 enclosed code 的 older models 这种事

39:43

You know because they're complaining about how opus is who verbose and and it is it drives me nuts

你知道，因为他们在抱怨 opus 有多 verbose，而且这真的让我抓狂

39:49

But I'm like oh my god, you've just heard a book on this last thing and I just want to get to the end

但我心想，天哪，你刚听了一整本书讲这个，而我只想赶紧听到结尾

39:53

That's like that's my that's my typical thing. I want to get to the end get there um yeah

就像，这就是我的典型情况。我想赶紧到结尾，赶紧到那儿，嗯，对

39:58

And so

所以

39:59

Yeah, I just it's interesting to see how all this is going to shake out uh in in that in the harness merging with different models space

对，我只是觉得，看看这一切最终会怎么发展挺有意思的，嗯，在那个 harness 和不同 models 融合的领域里

40:07

And what the relationship is and where the where the line between the two is being drawn in terms of that so um

以及两者之间的关系是什么，还有就这一点来说，这条界线到底划在哪里，所以，嗯

40:15

By the way, have you seen the bro skill? I have not seen the bro skill

顺便问一下，你见过 bro skill 吗？我没见过 bro skill

40:19

So this skill is incredible for anybody who's having these issues like you're having whereas like man

所以这个 skill 对任何遇到你这种问题的人来说都太棒了，就像，天哪

40:24

That was a book and I don't know if I understand half of it

那是一本书，我都不确定自己有没有看懂一半

40:27

You use you invoke the bro skill and it forces

你使用、你调用 bro skill，它就会迫使

40:32

The model to explain things very simply so that it doesn't give you these this jargon and all these big words and all this stuff

model 把事情解释得非常简单，这样它就不会给你这些术语、这些大词以及所有这些玩意儿

40:41

They're like whoa what is what does that even mean right? It just is like kind of explain it to me like I'm five type thing

他们会说，哇，这是什么，那到底是什么意思，对吧？它就像是那种，把我当五岁小孩来解释的感觉

40:47

Yeah, yeah, and so that is a very very useful one another skill that is quite useful is called uh show me

对，对，所以这是一个非常非常有用的。另一个相当有用的 skill 叫做，呃，show me

40:55

Okay, and so this one

好，那么这个

40:58

basically just

基本上就是

41:00

Makes it give you

让它给你

41:02

visuals

视觉内容

41:03

When it's instead of like writing the book and trying to explain it in words that you kind of get lost in it will give you visuals

当它不是像写书那样，试着用文字解释、让你有点迷失其中，它会给你视觉内容

41:11

So that it can go with it

这样它就能跟它搭配

41:14

And both of those together are very useful out to when you're encountering these problems

而且这两者结合在一起，当你遇到这些问题时非常有用

41:19

I am that like today because I spend a lot of time in client code and I didn't know that so I am I'm invoking this today

我今天就是那样，因为我花很多时间在 client code 里，而我之前不知道这个，所以我今天正在用这个

41:27

Because I I have a I have an emotional cycle that gets with using the using it as I prompt through things and

因为我，我有个，我有个情绪循环，会在我用它、一边 prompt 一边推进事情的时候冒出来，然后

41:35

Then I'm going scroll. Yeah, so you've just solved it for me. Okay, so you just good

然后我就要往下滚了。对，所以你刚刚帮我解决了。好，那你就很好

41:42

Oh, sorry to cut you off, but you know what I would love yet your take on some other thing that I've been thinking about deeply

噢，抱歉打断你，不过你知道吗，我其实很想听听你对另一件事的看法，这件事我最近一直在深入思考

41:49

is

就是

41:50

Really along the lines of the shopping experience and

其实就是在说购物体验，还有

41:56

where we're going to

我们将来要在哪里

41:59

Shop in the future on the internet because for me it feels like we're not that far off from

在网上购物，因为对我来说，感觉我们离

42:06

Doing everything in the chat like the chat is the new browser in a way. Yeah, that's not it is that novel of a term

所有事情都在 chat 里完成，就像 chat 在某种程度上是新的 browser。对，倒也不是——这个词有那么新吗

42:14

I think we're all okay with saying that these days because the majority of our

我觉得现在我们都愿意这么说，因为我们大部分的

42:19

work gets done from the chat and

工作都是在 chat 里完成的，而且

42:23

so

所以

42:24

What I realized and this came from me being in

我意识到的是，这是因为我当时在

42:28

Soul and I talked to a lot of payment processing companies who just joined the

Soul 里，我跟很多支付处理公司聊过，他们刚加入

42:33

Agenda AI foundation and they were wondering like well, what is the future of

Agenda AI foundation，他们都在想，嗯，Payments 的未来是什么？

42:38

Payments? How is it going to work?

这要怎么运作？

42:40

Where are people going to pay especially if you start to think about e-commerce worlds and you think about

人们会去哪里付钱，尤其是当你开始考虑 e-commerce 世界，并且想到

42:47

Oaks have Shopify stores or you can even think about amazon right and

Oaks 有 Shopify 店铺，或者你甚至可以想到 amazon，对吧，而且

42:52

Normally what we do is we go to some e-commerce store and we buy something from this Shopify store

通常我们做的就是去某个 e-commerce 店铺，然后从这个 Shopify 店铺买东西

43:00

By having an experience on that website or we go to amazon and we pick out what we want and then we buy something from amazon

通过在那种 website 上获得体验，或者我们去 amazon，挑出我们想要的东西，然后从 amazon 买点什么

43:07

And it comes same day or the next day or whatever

然后它当天到，或者第二天到，或者随便什么时候到

43:09

What happens when

那当……的时候会发生什么

43:11

Our whole experience is being done through the chat and the agent is the one that's

我们整个体验都是通过 chat 完成的，而 agent 才是那个……

43:17

Which is really

这真的就是

43:19

Where we're going. I mean that's where I'm already trying to go like I I don't want to be on amazon.com

我们要去的地方。我是说，那正是我已经在努力去的地方，就像我，我不想待在 amazon.com 上

43:24

I spend what I but but I always have chats open

我花我花的——但，但我总是开着 chats

43:28

I always have agents doing stuff and I do my shopping that way

我总是让 agents 做事，我就那样购物

43:32

You know and I only will go to where I have to do that and actually at this point even for amazon

你知道，而且我只会去我不得不那么做的地方，而实际上到现在，就算对 amazon 来说也是

43:38

I just need the agents to buy the stuff and within thresholds and stuff like that and be done with it

我只需要 agents 把东西买好，控制在 thresholds 之内，诸如此类的，然后就完事了

43:42

So yeah exactly what you're saying here's what here's what gets me

所以对，正是你说的那样，这就是——这就是让我想不通的地方

43:46

About this is how there there's so many things that are

关于这个，就是这里——有太多东西都是

43:51

Big question marks in my mind right the first one is how is amazon just gonna

在我脑子里全是巨大的问号，对吧，第一个就是，amazon 怎么会就这么

43:57

Let that happen a because they normally when you a human user log on to amazon and you shop around

让那种事发生啊？因为他们通常，当你，一个人类用户，登录 amazon 然后到处逛的时候

44:05

They get all that first party data

他们就能拿到所有那些 first party data

44:07

And that is used to serve up recommendations or it's used to get you on other things right and hopefully

而这些会被用来提供 recommendations，或者用来让你去看其他东西，对吧，而且希望

44:14

Increase the amount of money that you spend on amazon or again not singling out amazon

增加你在 Amazon 上花的钱，或者再说一次，不是单独针对 Amazon

44:20

There's plenty of other e-commerce stores out there. We can just use Shopify John's e-commerce store. Okay, so

外面还有很多别的 e-commerce store。我们可以直接用 Shopify John 的 e-commerce store。好，那么

44:28

now

现在

44:29

What happens? They're just gonna be like all right cool. Well now that it's an agent doing it

会发生什么？他们就会说，好吧，挺酷的。既然现在是 agent 在做这件事

44:33

You don't understand the intent you don't understand the agent just goes for the thing

你不理解这个 intent，你不理解，agent 就是直接冲着那个东西去

44:38

It's using it in a way that you're not used to seeing a human use it

它使用它的方式，不是你习惯看到人类使用它的方式

44:43

And it also bypasses all this stuff that we spent the last 20-25 years

而且它还绕过了过去 20-25 年里我们一直在做的所有这些

44:48

Optimizing like the upsell or the pop-ups or the all this stuff that it's like oh, yeah, Chris by the way

优化，比如 upsell、pop-ups，或者所有这些东西，就像，哦对了，Chris，顺便说一句

44:54

If you spend three more dollars, we're gonna give you free shipping and

你要是再多花三块钱，我们就给你免运费

44:59

The agent doesn't care about that right the agent just gets the stuff and gets out

Agent根本不在乎这个对吧，agent就是拿了东西就走

45:03

It doesn't have that kind of discernment at least as of now

它没有那种辨别能力，至少现在还没有

45:07

Maybe it'll come back to you and say oh Chris by the way

也许它会回来跟你说，哦Chris顺便说一下

45:10

There's these things maybe but maybe not and so we're gonna have to start building our e-commerce websites to

有这些东西，也许吧，但也许不会，所以我们要开始把我们的电商网站建得能

45:17

Entice the agents not the humans so that we want the agents

吸引agents而不是人类，这样我们想要agents

45:21

But we want the agents we want to entice them to go back and give you information, right?

但我们想要agents，我们想引诱它们回去给你信息，对吧？

45:26

So we've completely lost our relationship with the customer

所以我们已经完全失去了和客户的关系

45:31

So I I

所以，我，我

45:32

Agree I think we're in transition and going back when I was talking about having an agentic interface instead of

同意，我觉得我们正处在过渡期，回到我之前说的，拥有一个 agentic interface，而不是

45:40

So and this is where I think there's room

所以，这就是我觉得有空间的地方

45:43

For not just room. This is where I think it almost has to go give it like given the necessities of marketing branding

不只是有空间。我觉得它几乎必须往这个方向走，考虑到 marketing、branding 的必要性

45:50

Capturing the customer holding the customer enticing the customer with various incentives that kind of thing

获取客户、留住客户，用各种激励来吸引客户，诸如此类

45:55

Is that you can't just have your agents go to an MCP server like I think I mean that's how things will start

就是你不能只是让你的 agents 去一个 MCP server，我觉得，我是说，事情一开始会是这样

46:00

But I think for for the sellers for the for the companies that are trying to produce that

但我觉得，对于卖家，对于想要做出这些东西的公司来说

46:06

I think that they have to have these agentic interfaces that are that are going beyond

我觉得他们必须有这些 agentic interfaces，而且是那些正在超越……

46:11

MCP because you know where you're just going out and getting access to a tool or something

MCP，因为你知道，你只是去获取一个 tool 或什么东西的访问权限

46:16

But you're actually having a negotiation across agents where that can happen and then agents on both sides are getting smarter

但实际上你是在跨 agents 做 negotiation，这种事能发生，然后双方的 agents 都会变得更聪明

46:26

Or it may be that you have combinations of purchasing agents and then you have negotiation agents

也可能是你有 purchasing agents 的组合，然后还有 negotiation agents

46:32

And things like that or I talked about kind of the swarms

诸如此类，或者我之前谈到过的那种 swarms

46:34

You may have like a mini swarm that does your shopping where each agent has its own set of responsibilities

你可能有一个 mini swarm 帮你购物，其中每个 agent 都有自己的一套职责

46:40

Including the negotiation from the the upsell and all the other

包括来自 upsell 的 negotiation，以及所有其他

46:43

Concerns that that come about so I think I think that that I think to make it incredibly rich

随之而来的各种顾虑，所以我觉得，我觉得，我觉得要把它做得极其丰富

46:49

In the agentic context the same way they've been trying to do it in a in a human world is to is to make that an agentic to agentic

在 agentic 语境下，就像他们一直试图在人类世界里做的那样，就是要把它做成 agentic to agentic

46:58

Transaction with all those kind of communications that go on in there that may bring it back

交易，以及里面进行的那些各种各样的沟通，可能会把它带回来

47:04

And then you you develop a profile yourself as a consumer of the things that are interesting to you and not and that guy

然后你，你作为一个消费者，会给自己建立一份 profile，关于你感兴趣和不感兴趣的东西，还有那个家伙

47:11

And so your agent learns your preferences and then when when a deal comes from the agent that it's interacting with

所以你的 agent 会学习你的偏好，然后当它正在交互的那个 agent 发来一个交易时

47:18

And then you know that kind of upsell thing your agent understands your behavior on what would be acceptable

然后你懂的，那种 upsell 的事情，你的 agent 理解你的行为，知道什么是可接受的

47:23

And it can act autonomously to a certain degree to

而且它能在一定程度上自主行动，去

47:27

To satisfy your wishes before you even know it's there. That's what I think is happening

满足你的愿望，甚至在你还没意识到它存在之前。我觉得这就是正在发生的事

47:35

Light that vision and I do like the idea of oh, it's gonna have its ear to the street and constantly be

喜欢那个愿景，我确实喜欢这个想法：哦，它会耳听八方，不断

47:41

Getting hit up with offers potentially that's that's the world and then it discerns whether or not

被各种 offer 找上门，可能吧，这就是那个世界，然后它会分辨是不是

47:46

It should tell you about the offer because the last thing we want is an agent that's constantly pinging us about oh

它应该告诉你这个优惠，因为我们最不想要的就是一个 agent 老是不停 ping 我们说，哦

47:53

There's this cool offer. There's this cool offer. Oh, no, it'll have to know you. Yeah, yeah, it's will have to learn

有个超棒的优惠。有个超棒的优惠。哦不，它得先认识你。对，对，它得学

47:59

There's a few things that for me are wild there. It is true that yeah

对我来说，那里面有几件事挺疯狂的。确实，嗯

48:03

We can fan out right now and create the swarms and these agents can go off and

我们现在就可以 fan out，创建这些 swarms，然后这些 agent 就能出发去

48:08

Hit a hundred different websites looking for shoes, right?

访问上百个不同的网站找鞋，对吧？

48:13

And or one item that we're trying to shop for but what happens when I go and I say

或者就为了我们想买的一件东西，但当我过去说

48:20

Cool, so give me these shoes and that dress and that

好，那给我这双鞋、那条裙子，还有那个

48:25

And this banana and the agent now where you're gonna do the payments

还有这根香蕉，然后现在这个 agent，你要在哪里完成付款

48:30

And this is where why it all started for me

而这，就是这一切对我而言开始的地方

48:33

And so first of all actually even taking another step back

所以首先，其实甚至要再往后退一步

48:37

Does any of this even matter is there going to be a forcing function to

这一切到底有没有意义，会不会有一个 forcing function 来

48:41

Create this reality if with browser use I can already get what I want

创造这个现实——如果有了 browser use，我已经能得到我想要的东西

48:45

So first of all, I will just say that like browser uses good enough for my agents to go and browse the front end

所以首先，我就直说吧，browser use 已经足够好，让我的 agents 去浏览 front end

48:53

Yeah, and get me what I want so why is there going to be an incentive to create this new internet

是啊，而且能帮我拿到我想要的东西，那为什么还会有动力去创造这个新 internet

49:00

Where agents are talking agents and you've got these swarms and all this complex stuff happening because I just I've already got what I need

在那里 agents 在和 agents 对话，你有了这些 swarms 和所有这些复杂的东西在发生，因为我就是已经得到我需要的东西了

49:06

Right with browser you

对吧，用 browser 你

49:08

So that's where there's potential that it never happens

所以这就是有可能它永远不会发生的地方

49:12

But I will I will go with you on this idea of like all right if we do get there to the the swarms and now

但我会，我会同意你这个想法，就是，好吧，如果我们真的到了那个，那个 swarms 的阶段，而现在

49:18

I've just told my agent that I want three different things

我刚告诉我的 agent，我想要三个不同的东西

49:22

From three different merchants the way that we do that today is like the agent will go to each one of these websites

从三个不同的商家那里，我们今天做这件事的方式，就像 agent 会去每一个网站

49:30

And it will buy them or it will tell us hey here's here's the button

然后它会把它们买下来，或者它会告诉我们，嘿，这里是，这里是按钮

49:34

Are you okay to buy it and we eventually click on it and say yes or no

你愿意买吗？然后我们最终点一下，说行还是不行

49:38

But it's not that far off of a reality if we are

但这离现实并没有那么远，如果我们

49:42

Living in this timeline where agents do that when

生活在这样一个时间线里，agents 会做那些事的时候

49:46

Anthropic or open AI they say well, why not just pay me directly as open AI

Anthropic 或 OpenAI 会说，嗯，为什么不直接以 OpenAI 的身份付钱给我

49:51

I can be your payment processor and you just pay me and start then you know what happens

我可以当你的 payment processor，你只要付钱给我，然后开始，你知道接下来会发生什么

49:58

You don't even need then you disintermediate Shopify like why do I as a merchant even need to create a Shopify store

你甚至都不需要，然后你就把 Shopify disintermediate 掉了，就像，为什么我作为商家还要去开一个 Shopify 店铺

50:05

I just create the marketplace is all going towards the chat and so now

我只要创建 marketplace，一切都在往 chat 里走，所以现在

50:11

What is what is a marketplace now is it just me creating an agent with my with all these different skews that

现在 marketplace 到底是什么？是不是就是我创建一个 agent，带上我所有这些不同的 SKUs，然后它

50:19

Is easily searchable and then it can be bought through an agent on

很容易被搜到，然后可以通过一个 agent 在

50:25

The chat right like I do see where I'm going with it. I do see where you're going

chat 上买到，对吧？就像，我确实明白我想表达什么。我也确实明白你想表达什么

50:29

And I think I think that that also will I like I think what I'm saying is likely to happen

而且我觉得，我觉得那也会，我，我觉得我说的这种情况很可能会发生

50:34

But I also think inclusively that what you're saying

但我也从更包容的角度觉得，你说的这一点

50:36

I think there'll be a lot of experimentation

我觉得会有很多实验

50:39

From from different types of merchants on how that and there will be third party at

从，从不同类型的商家，关于那个会怎样，而且会有 third party 在

50:43

You know marketplaces forming to see if that works. So I think we'll see all of those

你知道，会有 marketplaces 形成，看看那样行不行。所以我觉得这些我们都会看到

50:49

I think the I know as a consumer um, I don't like I don't want to be shopping

我觉得，那个，我知道作为一个消费者，嗯，我不喜欢，我不想自己去购物

50:55

It's not what I do. I don't care about it. I want and I will I but I will know that I will have all of my agents that are

这不是我会做的事。我不在乎这个。我想要，而且我会，我，但我会知道，我会有我所有的 agents，它们会

51:03

Looking out for my interests and they have learned me very very well and there is a lot of

照看我的利益，而且它们已经非常非常了解我，还会有很多

51:09

Private profiling that in other words my agents profiling me and my wife and my daughter in our needs

Private profiling，换句话说，就是我的 agents 在给我、我妻子和我女儿做 profiling，围绕我们的需求

51:15

And how often we get things and when we need what the circumstances are and my agents will learn that very well

以及我们多久拿到东西、什么时候需要、在什么情况下，我的 agents 会把这些学得很清楚

51:21

And from my standpoint, I want you know good quality. I want it when I want it

从我的角度来说，我想要，你知道，高质量。我想什么时候要就什么时候要

51:25

I want to not spend too much money and I don't really care where it comes from if I can return it

我不想花太多钱，而且我不太在乎它从哪来，只要我能退货就行

51:30

Expeditiously as well and all that so I'm going to leave that to my agents at some point to figure out

还要快，等等这些，所以我打算在某个时候把这些交给我的 agents 去弄清楚

51:37

You go to the marketplace you go directly to an agentic interface you go to a more of a Shopify

你去 marketplace，你直接去一个 agentic 界面，你去一个更像 Shopify 的地方

51:43

You know or Amazon today and scrape it on the you know, I don't care just make it happen

你知道，或者现在的 Amazon，然后在上面 scrape，你知道，我不管，只要搞定就行

51:48

Make sure all these things that I care about are in place and don't bother me with it period. That's where I'm going bang

确保我关心的所有这些东西都到位，别拿这些烦我，句号。这就是我要冲的地方，砰

51:55

Not that I'm a demanding customer. Yeah, and but don't that's why I feel like the friction. There's still some

不是说我是个难伺候的顾客。是的，但是别，这就是为什么我觉得还有摩擦。还有一些

52:05

There's still some big question marks because the ideal scenario for us as a consumer is exactly what you just mapped out

但还是有一些很大的问号，因为作为消费者，我们的理想场景正是你刚刚描述的那样

52:12

Where it knows us better than we know ourselves right and I'm okay

它能比我们自己更了解我们，对吧，而这我没问题

52:16

If I have an agent or my swarm of agents my army of agents that I know are looking out for my best interest

如果我有一个 agent，或者我的一群 agent、我的 agent 大军，而且我知道它们都在为我的最佳利益着想

52:25

I'm okay with giving it all the information it needs and

我可以接受把它需要的所有信息都给它，而且

52:29

Having like the top recommender system. It's like I will gladly give you anything any information

拥有像最顶级的 recommender system 这样的东西。就像我会很乐意给你任何东西、任何信息

52:36

You can quiz me or grill me on my likes and dislikes because I trust that you're looking out for my best interest, right?

你可以考我，或者盘问我喜欢什么、不喜欢什么，因为我相信你是在为我的最佳利益着想，对吧？

52:44

Now the big question mark here and where open AI could potentially fumble is if they

现在这里最大的问号，也是 open AI 可能搞砸的地方，就在于如果他们

52:50

See that wow we could be the marketplace and

看到哇，我们可以成为那个 marketplace，然后

52:54

We can make money anytime. There's a transaction that happens wouldn't that incentivize them to only show things that are coming from their marketplace

我们随时都能赚钱。一旦有交易发生，这难道不会激励他们只展示来自他们自己 marketplace 的东西吗

53:04

So I know I'm making all kinds of big leaps here in like what the potential future could be because

所以我知道，我在这里做了各种很大的跳跃，去设想未来可能会是什么样，因为

53:11

Open AI does not have a marketplace right now and they've never stated that they want to be a marketplace

Open AI 现在没有 marketplace，而且他们也从来没说过自己想成为一个 marketplace

53:16

But if this is one of the potential timelines and you think about it like they would only push their own product

但如果这是其中一种潜在的 timeline，你再想想，他们只会推自己的产品

53:23

However, that could make me feel like oh, well, they're taking advantage of me because they're playing both sides

不过，那会让我觉得，哦，好吧，他们在占我便宜，因为他们在两头通吃

53:29

They know everything about me and then they're finding a way to

他们知道我的一切，然后他们在找办法去

53:34

leverage the what the merchants have on

leverage 商家在

53:38

Open AI like I would feel like I wouldn't trust it as much if I knew that they were in the middle

Open AI 上拥有的东西。就像，我会觉得，如果我知道他们夹在中间，我就不会那么信任它了

53:45

But if it wasn't agent like you were saying where it is going out and doing the searching on my behalf out in the wild wild west of the

但如果它不像你说的那样是个 agent，会跑出去、替我在那狂野西部的

53:54

Agentverse then maybe I would feel a little bit more

Agentverse 里做搜寻，那我可能就会觉得稍微更

53:59

Okay with it. I don't know. These are like the thought experiments. I think I think it's gonna be messy

能接受一点。我不知道。这些就像思想实验。我觉得，我觉得这会很乱

54:04

I think it's gonna be messy and people will try it out

我觉得这会很乱，而且人们会去试

54:08

On that note, I'm gonna I'm gonna wind us up

说到这儿，我要给咱们收个尾了

54:11

And this has been a fun fun conversation

这真是一次特别特别有意思的对话

54:15

I always love these we got I love it's I love getting you back on the show and talking about these things

我一直很喜欢这些，我喜欢，我喜欢把你请回节目里聊这些事

54:20

Um, I think I think we're just at a moment in time or any of these things that we've just talked about might happen

嗯，我觉得，我觉得我们正处在一个时间点上，或者说，我们刚聊到的这些事，任何一件都可能发生

54:28

Um, it may take and and I and I think it's worth talking about because

嗯，这可能需要，而且，而且我，而且我觉得这值得聊一聊，因为

54:32

Things are happening so much faster than anyone's expecting right now that it wouldn't surprise

现在事情发生得比任何人预期的都快得多，所以不会让人意外

54:37

I wouldn't surprise to see some of these things occurring before this year is out, you know as people start experimenting

我不会意外看到其中一些事情在今年结束前就发生，你知道，随着人们开始做实验

54:43

So we'll see uh

所以我们会看到的，呃

54:45

Uh, we'll have to see our next conversation. We'll look back and this one will seem so outdated

呃，我们下次对话时再看吧。等我们回头看，这次对话会显得特别过时

54:50

This will seem so like it will be great. What are we thinking about that, you know, I'm like oh my god

这会显得特别……就像，它会特别棒。我们当时是怎么想的，你知道，我就想，我的天

54:56

I'm so far off and all that and it was so much more than what we were expecting is that we'll say

我差得太远了，诸如此类的，而且它比我们预期的要多得多，我们会说

55:03

um

嗯

55:04

Demetrius thank you again for coming all in and having conversation. I hope the viewers and listeners enjoyed it as much as I did

Demetrius，再次感谢你过来，和我们一起聊。希望观众和听众和我一样享受这次对话

55:11

Um, uh, I got some pretty cool pretty cool topics, man

嗯，呃，我手里有几个挺酷、挺酷的话题，老兄

55:14

So I'll see you next time. Thanks for coming on the show. Ciao

那下次见。谢谢你来上节目。Ciao

55:25

All right, that's our show for this week

好了，本周节目就到这里

55:28

If you haven't checked out our website

如果你还没看过我们的网站

55:29

Head to practical ai.fm and be sure to connect with us on linkedin ex or blue sky

去 practical ai.fm，并且一定要在 linkedin、ex 或 blue sky 上和我们互动

55:35

You'll see us posting insights related to the latest AI developments

你会看到我们发布与最新 AI 发展相关的见解

55:39

And we would love for you to join the conversation

我们也很希望你能加入这场对话

55:41

Thanks to our partner prediction guard for providing operational support for the show

感谢我们的合作伙伴 prediction guard 为这档节目提供运营支持

55:46

Check them out at prediction guard calm

去 prediction guard calm 看看他们吧

55:48

Also thanks to break master cylinder for the beats and to you for listening. That's all for now

也感谢 break master cylinder 带来的节拍，也感谢你的收听。这次就到这里

55:53

But you'll hear from us again next week

不过下周你还会再次听到我们

Computer-Use Agents and the Future of the Agentic Internet

Play Queue