Hard Fork
Why No One Can Look Away From Elizabeth Holmes
00:0001:07:15
00:00
Hey, it's Tracy Mumford from The Headlines.
嘿，我是The Headlines的Tracy Mumford。
00:02
Every morning, we comb through everything that times is covering and everything that's
每天早上，我们都会梳理《时代》杂志报道的所有内容，以及所有那些
00:06
happening in the world, which can be a lot, and pull together a 10-minute update for you
正在世界上发生的事情，可能有很多，然后为你汇总成一个10分钟的更新
00:11
to start your day.
来开启你的一天。
00:12
It's breaking news, big investigations, and those, whoa, did you know about this?
这里是突发新闻、深度调查，还有那些——哇，你之前知道这个吗？
00:17
Stories, you won't find anywhere else.
别处找不到的故事。
00:19
Plus, every Friday, see how you do on our news quiz.
另外，每周五，看看你能不能通过我们的新闻测验。
00:23
The headlines from The New York Times find it weekday mornings in the Times app or wherever
The New York Times的头条新闻，工作日早晨可以在Times应用里或任何地方找到
00:27
you get your podcasts.
你就可以收听播客了。
00:30
I want to talk about Elizabeth Holmes.
我想聊聊Elizabeth Holmes。
00:33
She's the subject of a new documentary, directed by Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim, called
她是一部新纪录片的主角，该片由Nathan Fielder和Lance Oppenheim执导，片名为
00:37
You Can See Everything.
你可以看到一切。
00:39
And when the trailer for the movie dropped in late September, it felt like it was the only
而当这部电影的预告片在九月下旬发布时，感觉它是唯一
00:42
thing anyone could talk about.
所有人都在谈论的东西。
00:44
At least anyone who spends too much time online and loves drama.
至少是所有花太多时间上网又爱看八卦的人。
00:48
It turned out that Fielder had secretly spent a month with Holmes, her partner, Billy Evans,
原来Fielder曾秘密地与Holmes、她的伴侣Billy Evans
00:53
and their two kids, just before she began her 11-year sentence at a federal prison in Texas.
以及他们的两个孩子共度了一个月，就在她开始在德克萨斯州联邦监狱服刑11年之前。
00:59
But I think what made the trailer so fascinating to people wasn't just the secrecy of the project,
但我觉得让预告片对人们如此着迷的，不仅仅是这个项目的保密性，
01:03
or the weirdness of letting Nathan Fielder of all people live with you and film everything.
或者说让Nathan Fielder这么个人住进你家、拍下一切的那种诡异感。
01:08
As a culture, as a media apparatus, we've been obsessed with her, but we've never really
作为一种文化、作为一个媒体机器，我们一直对她着迷，但我们从来没有真正
01:12
met her.
认识过她。
01:13
And I think what the trailer dropped had made this promise, you're finally going to meet
我觉得预告片做出的承诺是，你终于要见到
01:17
Elizabeth Holmes.
Elizabeth Holmes了。
01:19
You'll finally learn who she actually is.
你终于要了解她到底是谁了。
01:23
Or are you?
还是说，你是？
01:25
After all, we're also talking about one of the most notorious fraudsters of the 21st century.
毕竟，我们谈论的也是21世纪最臭名昭著的骗子之一。
01:29
In any event, I knew I had to see the movie and I knew I would have questions.
无论如何，我知道我必须去看这部电影，我也知道我会有一堆问题。
01:33
The plan?
计划是什么？
01:34
Take John Kerryrue, the reporter who literally wrote the book on Holmes to the movies with
带John Kerryrue去电影院吧，就是那个 literally 写了关于Holmes的书的记者
01:38
me.
我。
01:39
So today, I've convened John and two other times journalists who have their own experiences
所以今天，我召集了John和另外两位时代记者，他们都有自己的经历
01:43
with Holmes to answer some questions.
和Holmes一起回答一些问题。
01:45
What happened to Elizabeth Holmes?
Elizabeth Holmes后来怎么样了？
01:47
Why does she persist in the public imagination?
为什么她一直存在于公众的想象中？
01:50
Because she actually, like that, I'm Max Reed.
因为她实际上，就像那样，我是Max Reed。
01:55
This is hard for her.
这对她来说很难。
02:01
So I'm joined today by three journalists who covered Elizabeth Holmes at three different
所以我今天请到了三位记者，他们分别在三个不同的
02:05
stages in her life.
她人生中的各个阶段。
02:07
Investigative reporter John Kerryrue, executive producer Caitlin Roper, and tech writer Aaron
调查记者John Kerryrue、执行制片人Caitlin Roper，以及科技撰稿人Aaron
02:11
Griffith.
格里菲斯。
02:12
I have a couple of quick notes before we start.
在开始之前，我有几点简短的说明。
02:14
The New York Times makes an appearance in this movie.
《纽约时报》在这部电影里露了个脸。
02:16
We're not going to get into that, but I want to be clear that no one on this podcast was
我们不会深入讨论那个，但我想明确一点，这个播客上没有任何人
02:20
involved in the article that preoccupies Elizabeth Holmes throughout the movie.
参与这篇文章，而这篇东西贯穿整部电影都让Elizabeth Holmes念念不忘。
02:24
And I also want to reassure our audience.
而且我也想安抚一下我们的听众。
02:26
This is a very twisty and turny documentary.
这是一部非常曲折离奇的纪录片。
02:28
We're going to talk a little bit about some specific scenes.
我们接下来聊一聊一些具体的场景。
02:30
If you're extremely concerned about spoilers, I would hit pause, come back later, but we're
如果你特别在意剧透，我会建议你按暂停，稍后再回来，但我们
02:34
not going to reveal any of the big sort of second half turns or revelations.
不会透露任何后半段的大转折或揭秘。
02:40
So with that being said, welcome to the podcast, guys.
话虽如此，欢迎来到播客，各位。
02:43
Hey.
嘿。
02:45
I thought we could start by asking each of you to explain briefly what your relationship
我想我们可以先请你们每个人简要解释一下你们各自的关系
02:49
is to Elizabeth Holmes.
是Elizabeth Holmes。
02:51
Caitlin, I want to start with you.
Caitlin，我想先从你开始。
02:52
You were, I think, the first person to interview Elizabeth Holmes for a magazine.
我想你是第一个为杂志采访Elizabeth Holmes的人。
02:58
What was that like?
那是什么感觉？
03:00
It was the end of 2013, and I was an editor at Wired magazine.
那是2013年底，我当时是Wired杂志的编辑。
03:04
And I was looking for founders for us to cover and include in something.
我当时在寻找可以报道和纳入专题的创始人。
03:12
And always as one of few women editors, I was looking for women founders.
而且作为为数不多的女性编辑之一，我一直在寻找女性创始人。
03:18
And I found this mention in the Wall Street Journal of Elizabeth Holmes.
然后我在Wall Street Journal上看到了关于Elizabeth Holmes的一则提及。
03:24
And so I did some research, and there weren't any magazine stories or profiles or interviews,
所以我做了一些研究，发现没有任何杂志报道、人物特写或采访，
03:31
and I reached out to Theranos and got a yes to come down and interview her.
然后我联系了Theranos，得到了一个肯定的答复，可以过去采访她。
03:37
So I walked into, you know, at the Theranos offices, I wasn't allowed to go anywhere else
所以我走进，你知道，Theranos的办公室，我不被允许去任何其他地方
03:42
other than the room that we were in, which had a phlebotomist to take my blood and then
除了我们所在的那个房间，里面有一个抽血员给我抽血，然后
03:47
also a place for me to sit with Elizabeth.
也是让我能和Elizabeth坐在一起的地方。
03:51
And that's when I met her most notable immediately was what seemed like an affictation of her
就在那时我遇见了她，最引人注目的是她身上那种似乎有些做作的感觉
03:58
voice.
声音。
03:59
It seemed kind of odd.
感觉有点奇怪。
04:00
She was wearing her Steve Jobs outfit, and she had on like red lipstick.
她穿着她那套Steve Jobs的装扮，还涂了红色口红。
04:05
So, and she had this sort of, you know, this thing that now we've become quite aware of,
所以，她带着那种，你知道，那种我们现在已经相当熟悉的东西，
04:09
but this kind of big blue-eyed stare, you know, kind of still and looking directly at
但那种蓝色大眼睛的凝视，你知道，有点静止地直视着
04:14
you.
你。
04:17
And I asked her a bunch of questions.
然后我问了她一堆问题。
04:18
Now, of course, like I was, you know, wired in general at that time, especially, was
当然，就像我当时整体的状态，你知道，我那会儿特别兴奋，尤其是
04:23
their orientation really, was on innovation and celebration of that innovation.
他们的定位真的是，是在创新以及对创新的庆祝上。
04:28
And I was actually genuinely excited to meet a founder who was working in biotech instead
而我当时真的是发自内心地兴奋，能遇到一位在biotech领域工作的创始人，而不是
04:35
of, you know, trying to make food delivery faster or cars come quicker.
你知道，去做让外卖更快或者让车来得更快这种事。
04:39
You know, and it felt like significantly more interesting to me.
你知道，那对我来说感觉有意思得多。
04:43
The part about her pitch that was about reducing healthcare costs, making transparent blood
关于她推介中涉及降低医疗成本、让血液透明的那部分
04:50
tests results to patients and potentially disrupting Medicare, you know, I thought that was
把检测结果告诉患者，还可能扰乱Medicare，你知道，我当时觉得那是
04:57
pretty cool.
挺酷的。
04:58
And I was excited to be there.
我也很兴奋能去那里。
04:59
So I interviewed her for about an hour, and then I had my blood drawn by a phlebotomist.
所以我采访了她大约一个小时，然后由一位抽血师给我抽了血。
05:06
So that was like the teeny tiny vial that you've seen in pictures, like a teeny tiny vial.
所以那就是你在照片里见过的那个超小的小瓶子，就是一个超小的小瓶子。
05:11
And because I was dealing with some medical stuff at the time, I asked for the same panel
因为当时我正在处理一些医疗方面的事情，所以我要求了同样的panel
05:16
that I had just had, so that I could compare the results of my panel and the Theranos
刚才我进行的那个，这样我就能比较我的小组和Theranos的结果
05:22
panel.
小组讨论。
05:23
Well, you did more than a lot of her investors.
嗯，你做的可比她很多投资人做的多多了。
05:25
Well, I mean, there was no, I mean, obviously, and you guys know this, but like there was
嗯，我是说，当时没有，我是说，显然，你们也知道这一点，但就像当时有
05:29
no variable science.
没有变量科学。
05:31
I couldn't see the lab.
我看不到那个实验室。
05:32
I couldn't talk to a lead scientist in some ways she was sort of standing in for the lead
我没办法跟首席科学家聊，某种程度上她算是代替了首席的位置
05:37
scientist in the way that she talked about about the company.
以她谈论公司的那种方式来说，她像个科学家。
05:40
And of course, she was also talking about new science, right, genetic testing of the
当然，她也谈到了新科学，对吧，基因检测的
05:45
blood in this different way.
以这种不同的方式来看待blood。
05:47
But anyway, they took my blood, and I did look at the panel against mine, and it was very
但不管怎样，他们抽了我的血，我确实看了那个检测面板跟我的对比，而且非常
05:52
much similar data to the same tests, like basically, like, you know, not exactly, but
非常相似的数据用于相同的测试，基本上就是，你知道，不完全一样，但
05:56
very, very close.
非常非常接近。
05:57
Of course, since then, I've wondered where was it tested?
当然，从那以后，我一直在想它是在哪里测试的？
06:01
How did they do it since it was such a small amount of blood?
他们是怎么做到的，因为血量那么少？
06:03
It wasn't a pinprick, but it was like that tiny vial.
不是扎手指那种，而是像那个小瓶子。
06:06
And so, you know, I had, I don't want to go on because I've said so much already, but
所以，你知道，我本来，我不想继续说下去了因为我已经说了太多了，但是
06:09
like, there's lots of things about like the experience of spending time with her that
比如说，和她相处的那种体验有很多
06:13
were interesting and odd, and I think, you know, if I had to characterize some of that,
有趣又奇怪的地方，我觉得，你知道，如果要我概括其中的一些，
06:17
I would say I believe she had conviction about what she was doing.
我会说我相信她对自己在做的事情有conviction。
06:22
Yeah.
嗯。
06:23
I mean, let's definitely want to put a pin in that and get back to that because I think
我是说，我们肯定要把这个先记下来回头再聊，因为我觉得
06:25
a lot of what we're going to be talking about is Elizabeth Holmes' conviction, and our
我们要聊的很多内容都是关于Elizabeth Holmes的conviction，以及我们的
06:29
conviction is as interlocutors of Elizabeth Holmes.
conviction 就像 Elizabeth Holmes 的对话者一样。
06:33
Kaelin, you were sort of there at the rise.
Kaelin，你算是见证了她的崛起。
06:35
I mean, you're talking about early in her career.
我是说，你讲的是她职业生涯早期的事。
06:38
She had a little bit of investment, yeah.
她当时有一点投资，是的。
06:39
Exactly.
没错。
06:40
Let's turn to you, John, because you were there for the downfall.
让我们转向你，John，因为你见证了她的垮台。
06:44
I mean, you played a prominent role in the downfall.
我的意思是，你在那次垮台中扮演了重要角色。
06:47
When did you first hear about Elizabeth Holmes and what was your sort of experience of
你第一次听说Elizabeth Holmes是什么时候，你当时的感受是怎样的
06:51
reporting on her?
报道她吗？
06:52
Yeah, she wasn't really on my radar until a New Yorker story of her profile by Ken
对，她其实一直没怎么引起我的注意，直到《纽约客》上Ken写的那篇她的特写报道。
07:01
and all that was published, I think, in mid-December 2014.
而且所有这些，我想，都是在2014年12月中旬发表的。
07:06
And I read that commuting back from the Wall Street Journal newsroom and Manhattan to
我读到从华尔街日报新闻编辑室和曼哈顿通勤回来的路上，到
07:12
my apartment in Brooklyn, read it on the subway, and there were some things that I picked
我在布鲁克林的公寓里，在地铁上读的，还有一些东西是我挑出来的
07:18
up in that story that struck me as odd.
在那个故事里，有一点让我觉得奇怪。
07:21
The main thing probably is that, you know, she was making these bold claims about what
最主要的一点大概是，你知道，她当时在做出这些大胆的断言，关于什么
07:26
her technology could do, but there were no peer-reviewed scientific journal studies or
她的技术能做到什么，但还没有经过同行评审的科学期刊研究或
07:35
articles about her technology.
关于她技术的文章。
07:39
And then there was also a note in there about the secrecy, and I thought, you know, I
然后里面还有一条关于保密性的说明，我当时想，你知道，我
07:45
thought to myself, there's something not quite right here, but then didn't really think
心里想，这里好像有点不太对劲，但后来也没真的多想
07:51
anymore of it for the next couple weeks until about three weeks later, out of the blue,
接下来的几周里不再有这方面的消息，直到大约三周后，突然之间，
07:57
I got a call from a source who was a practicing pathologist in Columbia, Missouri.
我接到一个线人的电话，他是密苏里州哥伦比亚市的一位执业病理学家。
08:05
And he'd read the very Sam New Yorker story, and he knew a lot more about blood testing
他读过那篇《纽约客》上关于Sam的报道，而且他对血液检测的了解要多得多
08:10
than I did.
比我当时更甚。
08:11
And he was very skeptical of her claims and about the feasibility of what she asserted.
他对她的说法以及她所断言的事情的可行性非常怀疑。
08:18
He was like three times removed from any real information, but the fact that he was so
他跟任何真实信息隔了三层，但他竟然那么
08:27
skeptical about the science and the feasibility of the science coming on top of my own questions
对这门科学以及这门科学在我自己问题之上的可行性持怀疑态度
08:36
that I had spontaneously reading the New Yorker story, that kind of made me willing to
我 spontaneously 读那篇 New Yorker 报道时产生的那种感受，让我愿意
08:40
look a little bit more into it.
再多研究一下。
08:42
So there were all these YouTube videos that I watched.
所以我看了一堆这样的YouTube视频。
08:45
And we've made it possible to eliminate the tubes and tubes of blood that traditionally
我们让消除传统上那些一管又一管的血液成为可能
08:52
have to be drawn from an arm and replaced it with the nanotainer.
必须从手臂上抽取并替换成nanotainer。
09:00
And there's something really odd about her.
而她身上有些非常奇怪的地方。
09:04
I felt like she was playing a role.
我感觉她在扮演一个角色。
09:08
There was some play acting going on.
有一些演戏的成分在里面。
09:10
I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I felt sure that part of it wasn't genuine.
我说不太清楚具体是什么，但我确信其中有一部分不是真实的。
09:17
And that made me even more suspicious and willing to delve deeper into the story.
而这让我更加怀疑，也更愿意深入挖掘这个故事。
09:27
So if Kaelin was there at the rise, and John was there for the fall, Aaron, you covered
所以如果Kaelin见证了崛起，John经历了衰落，Aaron，你报道了
09:32
Elizabeth's trial extensively.
Elizabeth的审判被广泛讨论。
09:35
What was that experience like?
那段经历是什么样的？
09:36
The trial took many, many years to actually happen.
这场审判拖了很多很多年才真正进行。
09:40
So I believe I started in 2021 in San Jose, which is about an hour and a half south of
所以我相信我是在2021年在San Jose开始的，那里往南大约一个半小时
09:48
San Francisco.
旧金山。
09:49
So me and half of the SF press corps is down there hanging around in the court house
所以我和一半的SF记者团都在下面，在法院附近晃悠
09:55
for about four months.
大约四个月了。
09:57
But it was really surreal in a way because we are in the hallway and in this same space
但这在某种程度上真的很超现实，因为我们就在走廊里，在同一个空间
10:04
as Elizabeth Holmes and her family.
就像Elizabeth Holmes和她的家人一样。
10:07
And we wound up actually kind of spending a lot of time sitting around with Billy Evans,
结果我们实际上花了挺多时间跟Billy Evans坐在一起，
10:12
her partner who plays a really prominent role in the movie, and her parents who are also
她的搭档在电影中扮演了一个非常突出的角色，还有她的父母也是
10:16
in the movie.
在电影里。
10:17
And they were very friendly and chatty to us.
而且他们对我们非常友好，很健谈。
10:21
Billy would talk about Burning Man or various things, but never anything about the trial
Billy会聊Burning Man或者各种事情，但从来不提审判的事
10:27
or about Holmes.
或者关于Holmes的事。
10:28
And the oddest thing that happened, I would say, is that Billy Evans' dad came to the
我觉得发生的最奇怪的事情是，Billy Evans的爸爸来到了
10:33
jury selection and was hanging out with all of us in the media and kind of chatting
陪审团遴选现场，和我们所有媒体人待在一起，聊着天
10:37
with us.
和我们一起。
10:37
And he told us his name was Hanson and that he was just there as an observer because he
他告诉我们他叫Hanson，他只是作为观察者在那里，因为他
10:43
was interested in criminal justice.
对刑事司法感兴趣。
10:45
And that's not a totally implausible story because there are a lot of people that, you
这也不是一个完全不可信的故事，因为有很多人，
10:49
know, some people called Gavill Groupies that hang out at trials.
你知道，有些人被称为Gavill Groupies，他们会在庭审现场围观。
10:53
They just like find the whole process interesting.
他们就是觉得整个过程很有意思。
10:56
There were some people that went to every single day of this trial over the course of four
有些人在这四个月里每天都去旁听这场庭审
10:59
months.
几个月。
11:00
So, you know, we just thought he was kind of one of those.
所以，你知道吧，我们当时就觉得他差不多就是那种人。
11:02
And then later on the first day of the trial when Holmes shows up with her family, Armin
然后后来在审判第一天的晚些时候，当Holmes和家人一起出现时，Armin
11:05
Arm, he's with them, Hanson.
Arm，他和他们在一起，Hanson。
11:07
And it turns out it was actually Billy Evans' dad.
结果发现那其实是Billy Evans的爸爸。
11:10
Wow.
哇。
11:11
So, this is like, you know, once you see the movie, I feel like that, it clicks something
所以，这就像是，你知道吧，一旦你看了那部电影，我就觉得，那个东西一下子就通了
11:19
into place to learn that his dad was doing stuff like that.
来了解到他爸爸在做那样的事情。
11:22
Okay.
好的。
11:23
So, we have here sort of three periods of Elizabeth Holmes' the arc of her career.
所以，我们这里大致有Elizabeth Holmes职业生涯弧线的三个时期。
11:30
Now, last month, a trailer drops for a new documentary that seems to suggest a kind
上个月，一部新纪录片的预告片发布了，似乎暗示了一种……
11:36
of fourth period.
第四阶段。
11:38
I don't have anything to deceive you on, of course, I'm not deceiving you.
我当然没有什么要欺骗你的，我没有在骗你。
11:42
I'm engaging with you as a human being.
我是在作为一个人类和你交流。
11:46
Why would I deceive you?
我为什么要骗你呢？
11:52
There's no reason for me to do that.
我没有理由那么做。
11:56
Okay.
好的。
11:59
Okay, good chat.
好，聊得不错。
12:11
How did you guys react when this movie trailer dropped?
你们当时看到这个电影预告片出来的时候是什么反应？
12:14
Were any of you aware that this documentary was in the works?
你们之前有人知道这部纪录片在制作中吗？
12:17
Yeah, I actually found out about it about 18 months ago, a little more than 18 months
对，我其实大概18个月前才知道这个事的，稍微比18个月多一点
12:23
ago, Fielder reached out to me and I was kind of unfriendly to him because at the time
之前，Fielder联系了我，我当时对他有点不友好，因为那时候
12:32
I was being harassed by this guy.
我当时正被这家伙骚扰。
12:35
And so when Fielder reached out to me in the middle of this, I was suspicious that he
所以当Fielder在这期间联系我的时候，我怀疑他
12:43
in this crackpot were basically in league and working together.
在这个疯狂的计划里，我们基本上是一伙的，在一起合作。
12:48
And so I, you know, was pretty hostile.
所以我，你知道的，当时挺敌对的。
12:53
Mm-hmm.
嗯哼。
12:54
Wow.
哇。
12:55
Did you mention that to him or you just kind of said no thanks?
你跟他提过那件事吗，还是你只是说了句不用了？
12:59
Yeah, eventually, I mean, I forwarded Nathan's email to my agents and then my agent talked
对，最终，我是说，我把Nathan的邮件转发给了我的agent，然后我的agent就谈了
13:07
to his agent and we were able to ascertain that they weren't, you know, it wasn't the same
给他的agent，我们能够确定他们并不是，你知道，并不是同一个
13:15
thing and that they weren't working together.
事情是他们没有合作。
13:18
But I didn't, I still didn't really have a good idea of what exactly Fielder was working
但我没有，我还是不太清楚Fielder到底在做什么
13:24
on.
on.
13:25
I didn't understand what exactly he wanted from me.
我当时没搞懂他到底想从我这儿要什么。
13:29
I was kind of done with Elizabeth Holmes at their nose.
我对Elizabeth Holmes已经有点厌倦了。
13:32
And I would say like I heard about the movie, not that like at the beginning of their promotion
我会说，我听说过那部电影，不是说在他们宣传初期的时候
13:36
and I thought why, you know, just because like at that point there had been so much, like
然后我想为什么，你知道，就因为那时候已经有太多太多了，就像
13:43
and, you know, and, you know, and then I found out it was Lance Oppenheim and Nathan Fielder
然后，你知道，然后，你知道，然后我发现是Lance Oppenheim和Nathan Fielder
13:48
and I thought like those are interesting artists, you know, but my overall question was
然后我想，这些是很有意思的创作者，你知道，但我总体上的疑问是
13:55
like how much are we going to be paying attention to this woman, how long?
我们到底还要关注这个女人多久，还要关注多长时间？
13:59
So you were pretty sick.
所以你病得挺严重的。
14:00
Forever.
永远。
14:01
As it turns out.
事实证明。
14:02
You were pretty sick of Elizabeth Holmes' story.
你对Elizabeth Holmes的故事已经相当厌倦了。
14:05
I mean, just, it just raises questions for me like why is she, you know, there's lots
我是说，就是，这让我产生了一些疑问，比如为什么她，你知道，有很多
14:10
of, in my job, I look at lots of stories of con people, con people should be a phrase.
在我的工作中，我会看很多关于骗子的故事，骗子应该是一个词组。
14:17
And you know, I just, I find they're unsatisfying because mostly they believe what they're selling
你知道，我只是觉得这些说法让人不满意，因为它们基本上相信的就是自己要卖的东西
14:24
for a long period of time.
在很长一段时间里。
14:26
And we think as regular people, you know, who go to a party and we say something weird
而我们作为普通人，你知道，去参加一个派对，然后说了些奇怪的话
14:30
and we think about it for four days or maybe that's just me, like that if we were lying
我们想了四天，或者可能只有我这样，就像如果我们撒谎的话
14:34
all the time, it would, you know, really suck and be hard.
一直这样的话，你知道，真的会很糟糕，也会很难。
14:38
And I think actually, you know, they have a higher tolerance for deceit, sure, but also
而且我觉得实际上，你知道，他们确实对欺骗有更高的容忍度，但同时也
14:43
just uncomfortability.
只是不舒服而已。
14:44
And I think both Lance Oppenheim and Nathan Fielder have a very high tolerance for discomfort.
我觉得Lance Oppenheim和Nathan Fielder都对不适感有很高的容忍度。
14:51
Yes, you could say that.
是的，可以这么说。
14:52
I mean, it's interesting to hear you say this, Caitlin, because one of the most interesting
我的意思是，Caitlin，听你这么说很有意思，因为最有趣的其中一个
14:56
things is how enduring their cultural fascination with a figure like Holmes is.
有一点是，人们对福尔摩斯这样的人物在文化上的着迷有多持久。
15:01
There's a lot of people, I mean, I would, I would include myself in this who have been
有很多人，我是说，我也会把自己算在内，他们一直
15:04
sort of obsessed with her without ever having really met her.
有点迷恋她，虽然从来没有真正见过她。
15:09
And you guys are part of a small group of people who have gotten up close, to say the
你们也是少数能够近距离接触、可以说
15:13
least.
至少。
15:15
And I am just one of the main questions I have after seeing this movie is what you think
看完这部电影后我主要的问题之一就是你的看法是什么
15:19
of how she was portrayed or how she portrayed herself in the film.
关于她在电影中是如何被描绘的，或者她是如何描绘自己的。
15:24
Like was it surprising?
是觉得很意外吗？
15:25
Did it feel new or did it feel like more of the kind of same old?
这感觉是全新的，还是感觉只是老一套的重复？
15:29
John, you spent the most time thinking about Elizabeth.
John，你花最多时间研究Elizabeth。
15:31
Let's start with you.
就从你开始吧。
15:33
Right.
好的。
15:34
And just to be clear, she never granted me an interview when I was researching Theranos.
先澄清一下，我研究Theranos的时候，她从来没接受过我的采访。
15:41
I tried to get an interview with her in late 2015 and, you know, made repeated attempts,
我在2015年底尝试过约她采访，你知道，反复尝试了很多次，
15:49
repeated requests.
重复的请求。
15:50
And she would never grant me an interview because I think it was clear to her that I, you
而她永远不会同意接受我的采访，因为我觉得她很清楚地知道，我，你
15:56
know, was very skeptical of what she had stated on the record about her company's capabilities.
你知道，对她公开表态中关于公司能力的说法非常怀疑。
16:02
And she just didn't want to engage with that.
而她就是不想掺和那件事。
16:04
I tried to interview her again when I went on book leave in early 2016 for the book.
2016年初我请了写书假去写书的时候，又试着采访了她一次。
16:10
I tried to make the case to her PR people that this was her opportunity to have some influence
我试着向她公关团队的人说明，这是她施加一些影响力的机会
16:16
over the narrative.
在叙事之上。
16:18
And again, you know, I was declined any access.
而且再一次，你知道，我被拒绝了任何访问权限。
16:22
So it was with a bit of envy, actually, that I watched a fielder and Oppenheim get all
所以其实我是带着一点羡慕，看着Fielder和Oppenheim把所有的
16:30
this access and be able to ask any question they wanted in terms of her portrayal or at
这种访问权限，能够就她的刻画或表演提出任何他们想问的问题
16:38
least how she comes across.
至少她给人的感觉是这样。
16:41
I think that there are two sides of Elizabeth Holmes.
我认为Elizabeth Holmes有两面。
16:47
One is that she can be very pleasant and she can be extremely charming if she wants to
一是她可以非常讨人喜欢，如果她愿意的话，她可以极其有魅力
16:53
be.
be.
16:54
And I think there's another side which she doesn't show much if at all in this film, which
而且我觉得还有另一面，她在这部片子里几乎没怎么展现，那就是
16:59
is that she is feisty, she's combative, she's ruthless and she's a liar.
就是她很好斗，她好争辩，她冷酷无情，而且她是个骗子。
17:10
And the feisty sort of combative ruthless parts, you see in tiny little flashes, I'd
而那些好斗的、对抗性的、冷酷无情的部分，你只能在一些微小的瞬间里瞥见，我
17:18
say, in the film when she's being asked by fielder, you know, insistently, well, how did
比如说，在电影里当菲尔德问她的时候，你知道，很坚持地问，那么你是怎么
17:24
you get here?
你到这儿了吗？
17:25
Don't you think you did something wrong?
你不觉得你做错了什么吗？
17:27
And she says, I did not.
她说，我没有。
17:29
And sort of there's that she, there are a couple of times where she snaps back, I did
然后有那么几次她回怼了，我确实
17:34
not.
不。
17:36
And her demeanor is a little bit more tense.
而她的神态稍微更紧张一些。
17:38
And I think that's the closest you get to seeing that other Elizabeth Holmes.
我觉得那是你能最接近看到另一个Elizabeth Holmes的时刻了。
17:44
But for the most part, she does a very good job of hiding it.
但大多数时候，她把这个藏得很好。
17:48
Caitlin, what about you?
Caitlin，你呢？
17:50
Was this similar to the Holmes that you remember from those interviews from that interview
这跟你从那些采访里记得的Holmes相似吗？
17:54
now more than a decade ago?
现在已经是十多年前了？
17:56
I mean, I think I interpreted them differently, obviously, in 2013 than now in 2026.
我的意思是，我觉得我对它们的理解显然在2013年和现在2026年是不一样的。
18:06
One of the things I've thought a lot about in the intervening years is teasing out what
这些年来我反复思考的一件事，就是梳理清楚什么
18:10
her performances are for, who therefore, right?
她的表演是为了谁，因此，对吧？
18:13
Like, when I met her, like, again, there was not a lot of female founders and certainly
比如说，我遇到她的时候，同样地，当时女性创始人并不多，而且当然
18:17
not raising this level of capital and focused on biotech.
没有筹集这种规模的资金，而是专注于biotech。
18:21
And so I thought to myself that the way she was dressed, the sort of black on black, which
于是我心里想，她那样的穿着打扮，那种全黑配全黑，这
18:25
didn't seem super weird to me, but seemed very like purposeful was also about just being
对我来说并不显得特别奇怪，但看起来非常有目的性，也关乎只是做自己
18:33
in rooms with men when you're trying to raise money.
在满是男人的房间里，当你试图融资的时候。
18:35
There's lots of research that shows that women do not get investment in the same way that
有很多研究表明，女性获得投资的方式与
18:40
men do.
男士们也是如此。
18:41
And so in my mind, I thought of that as partially trying to pass as a strong founder,
所以在我心里，我把那部分看作是在努力表现得像一个强势的创始人，
18:50
which at the time, the other thing that was going on was just like every single person
而当时，另一件正在发生的事情就是，几乎每一个人
18:54
saying, like, your investments are just in the founder, right?
比如说，你的投资就只是投在创始人身上，对吧？
18:57
It's this sort of like, auteur theory of technology that, you know, you're investing
这有点像技术领域的作者论，就是说，你在投资
19:00
in someone.
在某人身上。
19:02
But I couldn't, I did get a vibe that something wasn't totally, you know, she was
但我做不到，我确实有种感觉，有些事情并不完全，你知道，她当时
19:05
performing something and, and, and also she's just weird, you know, so when I watched
做某件事，而且，而且，而且她就是很奇怪，你知道吧，所以当我看到
19:11
the movie, I felt like the same, I felt some of the same suite of feelings.
这部电影，我感觉也是一样的，我感受到了一些同样的那一套情绪。
19:16
Yeah, I mean, she to Caitlin's point about her costume.
对，我是说，她回应了Caitlin关于她服装的观点。
19:19
She very conspicuously dresses and makes herself up in almost an exact opposite way to,
她非常刻意地打扮和妆造，几乎完全相反于，
19:25
to her at her most famous in the 2015, 2016.
于她在2015、2016年最出名时的样子。
19:28
There are no turtle necks in this movie, there are very few dark colors, her hair is down
这部电影里没有高领毛衣，深色衣服也很少，她的头发
19:32
most of the time.
大部分时间都是放下来的。
19:35
You know, as you're saying, Caitlin, it's hard not to wonder if this is itself a sort
你知道，就像你说的，Caitlin，很难不怀疑这本身是不是一种
19:39
of strategy.
策略。
19:40
I mean, in some ways, it probably obviously is a sort of strategy to come across in a,
我的意思是，在某些方面，这显然可能是一种策略，为了给人留下一种，
19:44
in a more relaxed and intimate, in different way.
用一种更轻松、更亲密、不一样的方式。
19:46
Yeah, especially in those scenes, you know, it's like we're, we're, they were in a temporary
是啊，尤其是在那些场景里，你知道，就像我们，我们，他们当时在一个临时的
19:49
housing situation there, but they're at the beach, you know, it's like, it's like, we're
那里的住房情况，但他们在海滩上，你知道，就像，就像，我们
19:54
frallicking on the beach, like literally, we're frallicking on the beach, we're just taking
在海滩上嬉戏，真的，我们就是在海滩上嬉戏，我们只是
19:58
care of our dear child.
照顾我们亲爱的孩子。
19:59
I mean, her child is present, right, like, and so that, that, but that's that's also like
我是说，她的孩子在场，对吧，然后那个，那个，但那也是
20:05
a kind of telegraphing ease and intimacy, right?
一种传达轻松和亲密感的方式，对吧？
20:08
Like, you're inside someone's real self, and I, you know, how to interpret that as kind
就像，你进入了某人真实的自我，而我，你知道，怎么解读这个呢，
20:12
of, like, I think the, I think the filmmakers, Oppenheim and Fielder made choices carefully
我觉得，我觉得制片人Oppenheim和Fielder对他们
20:20
about what they, what, you know, what's in their edit as anyone would, and, and we're
剪辑里放什么做了仔细的选择，任何人都会这样，然后我们在思考
20:25
thinking about the question of like what she was performing, that scene where she doesn't
她当时在表演什么这个问题，就是那个场景，她并没有
20:31
understand Fielder's question about, like, and over and over again, she repeats the same
理解Fielder的问题，关于，就是，一遍又一遍地，她重复着同样的
20:38
answer.
答案。
20:39
It's like that was one of the most intense, like, scenes for me because it's just completely
这对我来说是最紧张的场景之一，因为它完全
20:42
baffling.
令人困惑。
20:43
Yeah.
是的。
20:44
And there was a parallel that reminded me of actually at the trial.
这让我想起了审判时的一个相似之处。
20:47
There were moments, I don't know if you remember this, John, when like she was being interrogated
有一些时刻，我不知道你还记不记得，John，就是当她被检察官审问的时候
20:51
by the prosecutors, and they're asking the same question over and over and over and over
他们一遍又一遍又一遍又一遍地问同一个问题
20:55
and like just slightly different ways and trying to, like, get her to, and, and it just
只是稍微换一点点方式，试图让她，然后，然后它就
20:59
very much reminded me of that where it's like, there's a little bit of a communication
非常让我想起那个场景，就是，这里有一点沟通
21:02
breakdown here.
上的断裂。
21:03
Yeah.
是的。
21:04
Yeah.
Yeah。
21:05
Yeah, because I think the, the reason communication breaks down quite simply is she's not answering
Yeah，因为我觉得，沟通之所以会破裂，很简单，就是她没有在回答
21:10
the question.
那个问题。
21:11
She's amazing the question.
她在回避那个问题。
21:13
She's a lighting.
她在闪烁其词。
21:14
And, um, I mean, I, I felt like there were some moments in the film where she was just
而且，嗯，我是说，我，我觉得电影里有几个时刻她就是
21:20
brazenly lying.
厚颜无耻地撒谎。
21:22
Um, one scene that, that comes to mind is, um, when they're at this photography studio
嗯，我想到的一个场景是，嗯，当他们在那家摄影工作室的时候
21:28
that, uh, Billy, her companion has taken her to, to, um, film, uh, her from a, a bunch
那个，呃，Billy，她的同伴带她去了，去，嗯，拍摄，呃，从一个，一个一堆
21:35
of different angles to, to basically create a digital replica of her that he's going
不同角度的，基本上就是创建一个她的数字复制品，他正在
21:40
to be able to show their children when she's in prison.
为了能在她坐牢时给孩子们看。
21:44
And, uh, before she goes on to have her picture taken, suddenly she breaks down in tears
然后，呃，在她去拍照之前，她突然崩溃大哭起来
21:50
and you hear her say through the tears that, um, last time, you know, people in her entourage
然后你听到她泪流满面地说，嗯，上一次，你知道，她身边的人
21:56
pushed her into the spotlight, it didn't go well.
把她推到了聚光灯下，结果不太顺利。
22:00
And I almost jumped out of my chair, um, because to me that, that, that was like a brazen
我差点从椅子上跳起来，嗯，因为对我来说，那，那，那简直就是一个厚颜无耻的
22:06
lie.
谎言。
22:07
Um, and, and the reason is that, um, you know, the first time around, she embraced the,
嗯，而且，而且原因是，嗯，你知道，第一次的时候，她是主动拥抱了
22:14
the spotlight, she jumped into the spotlight, she did everything she could to, to attract
聚光灯的，她自己跳进了聚光灯下，她竭尽所能去，去吸引
22:20
the spotlight.
聚光灯。
22:21
And there are even texts, um, that, uh, show that she was enjoying the spotlight and
甚至还有一些文本，嗯，那个，呃，显示她很享受聚光灯，而且
22:27
that she premeditated the coverage, um, text that came out during the, her criminal trial.
她预谋了那些报道，嗯，在她刑事审判期间曝光的文本。
22:33
So I felt like those tears in that moment at the photography studio were completely manufactured.
所以我觉得她在摄影棚那一刻的那些眼泪完全是装出来的。
22:40
Um, and, uh, well, it's also possible though that she, but isn't it possible that even,
嗯，而且，呃，不过也有可能她，但是有没有可能即使，
22:46
regardless of if she was into it or not when she was doing it at the time that she, the
不管她当时做那件事的时候是不是真的喜欢，她，那个
22:50
result is that she's like kind of traumatized by how it all turned out.
结果就是她对事情最后的发展有点心理阴影了。
22:54
But, and also, I mean, I, I, I mean, John, like, I hear you, that does seem like a brazen
但是，而且，我是说，我，我，我是说，John，我听到你说的了，那对我来说确实像是一个赤裸裸的
23:01
lie to me.
谎言。
23:02
And yet one of the interesting things of the film is as a mother, like, I'm watching it.
然而这部电影有意思的地方之一是，作为一个母亲，我看着它。
23:07
And I'm actually, every time I remember that she's about to go to prison and she's just
而且我实际上，每次我想到她即将进监狱而她刚刚
23:10
given, just has these young children, I, I felt like sad and empathy for her, you know,
生了，就是有这些年幼的孩子，我，我为她感到难过和共情，你知道，
23:15
because like, this is such a weird period of time to be with someone.
因为，这真的是一个很奇怪的时期去和某人在一起。
23:19
No matter who they are, right?
不管他们是谁，对吧？
23:21
Like the last days before they go to prison for how many years, 12, 11 and three months,
就像他们入狱前的最后几天，分别要坐12年、11年和三个月的牢，
23:26
11 years and three months.
11年零三个月。
23:27
Yeah, although she's now going to be moving to a halfway house, apparently next year or
是啊，虽然她现在要搬去中途之家了， apparently 明年或者
23:31
so.
所以。
23:32
But, and John, I don't, I don't think that negates your point.
但是，John，我不，我不觉得这能否定你的观点。
23:34
Like, it's like my sadness about her situation, you just a human sadness about her situation
就像，这就像我对她处境的悲伤，你只是对她处境的一种人类的悲伤
23:39
doesn't change this question of her, like calculations about what she's saying and, and
这并不改变关于她的这个问题，比如对她所说内容进行的计算，而且，而且
23:45
lying.
撒谎。
23:46
I think that's kind of what makes the movie work so well.
我觉得这正是这部电影如此成功的原因。
23:49
I was very nervous that it was like, oh, well, this is just going to be kind of a redemption
我当时非常紧张，心想，哎，这大概只会是一种救赎吧
23:53
story or getting us all kind of on her side emotionally.
或者说是让我们在情感上站到她那边。
23:56
And it does let take us into her emotional state.
而且它确实能带我们进入她的情感状态。
23:59
And like, it makes you feel bad for her at times she's going to prison.
就像，它让你有时候替她感到难过，她要去坐牢了。
24:02
Like you said, she's going to be away from her, her family.
就像你说的，她要离开她的家人。
24:05
But it doesn't also let her off the hook, which is what I was kind of most worried about.
但它也没有让她完全脱责，而这正是我比较担心的一点。
24:10
Right.
对。
24:11
There's a scene where I think she and field her outside in the dunes above the beach and
有一个场景，我觉得是她和Field在沙滩上方的沙丘外面，然后
24:20
he asks her, whether she's ever lied in her life, whether she's ever told a lie ever
他问她，这辈子有没有撒过谎，有没有说过一次谎
24:25
ago.
之前。
24:26
And her answer is no, and he goes, Liz, really?
她的回答是不，然后他说，Liz，真的吗？
24:30
Yeah.
是的。
24:31
Yeah.
是的。
24:32
And that's all of us.
这就是我们所有人。
24:33
It's preposterous, but, but I felt like they gave her enough rope to hang herself there.
这太荒谬了，但是，但是我觉得他们给了她足够的绳子让她自己上吊。
24:42
You know, you could take the point of view that letting her say that on camera with the
你知道，你可以采取这样一种观点，就是让她在镜头前说出那番话，伴随着那
24:50
straight face is giving her the opportunity to manipulate the public and to rehabilitate
面无表情是给她操纵公众和洗白自己的机会
24:58
herself.
她自己。
24:59
But I think the way it comes off is not that it comes off as this absurd statement that
但我认为它给人的感觉并不是那种荒谬的说法，说
25:05
can't possibly be true.
不可能是真的。
25:07
And if anything, you know, she, she looks worse for it.
如果说有什么的话，你知道，她反而因此显得更糟了。
25:11
Yeah.
是的。
25:12
There's a real sense that the movie is try is and maybe field her as the, as the sort
有一种很真实的感觉，这部电影是在尝试，也许把她当作那个，那个……
25:16
of motivating force within the movie is trying to come down on this idea.
电影中的推动力正试图支持这一观点。
25:20
Is she manipulative?
她有操控欲吗？
25:22
Is does she believe what she's saying?
她真的相信她自己说的话吗？
25:24
Is she full of it?
她是不是在胡扯？
25:26
Is she?
她是不是？
25:27
Can we redeem her?
我们能让她改邪归正吗？
25:28
And I'm not sure there's a satisfying answer.
而且我不确定是否存在一个令人满意的答案。
25:30
But Caitlin, it was interesting to hear you say that you could generate a kind of academic
但是Caitlin，听你说你能生成一种学术性的
25:35
sympathy for her, or not even academic, a real sympathy for her in the situation, because
对她的同情，或者甚至不是学术层面的，而是对她所处处境的一种真正的同情，因为
25:39
you're probably the person you're who has the best claim to herself to have been manipulated
你大概就是那个最有资格说自己被操纵了的人
25:43
by Elizabeth Holmes.
by Elizabeth Holmes.
25:44
I mean, did you feel manipulated in retrospect through that interview by that interview?
我的意思是，回过头来看，你有没有觉得在那次采访中被那个采访操纵了？
25:51
I mean, yes, I felt like I felt like it was, you know, the granting access to that interview
我的意思是，是的，我感觉，我感觉就像是，你知道，批准了对那次采访的访问权限
25:58
was the beginning of a plan that they rolled out, and that there was a calculated interest
这是一个他们推出的计划的开端，而且其中存在一种经过计算的利益考量
26:05
in validating what they were doing.
在验证他们当时在做的事情。
26:08
So like, but I, I, it's like, do I blame her?
所以就像，但是我，我，这就像，我怪她吗？
26:11
I never felt like I didn't feel personal enemies against her.
我从来没有觉得我对她有什么个人恩怨。
26:15
I felt regret that, that I, that we wrote about her so early when we couldn't validate
我感到遗憾的是，我，我们那么早就写了她，而当时我们无法验证
26:22
any of her scientific claims, you know?
她的任何科学主张，你知道吗？
26:25
I was wondering, did you ever feel like she was reluctant at the time that she was a reluctant
我在想，你有没有觉得她当时很不情愿，她是一个不情愿的
26:30
participant in, in the interview and that she was dragging her feet?
参与面试的那个人，而且她在拖延？
26:34
No way.
不可能。
26:35
Not at all.
完全没有。
26:36
I thought she was trying to telegraph, graph strength and thoughtfulness.
我以为她是想传达出那种深度和深思熟虑。
26:42
And of course, anytime I asked a question that she didn't want to answer, she would look
当然，每次我问到她不想回答的问题时，她就会看向
26:46
to someone, but like, clearly she was deciding she had already decided she wasn't going to
某个人，但很明显她是在做决定，她已经决定了她不打算
26:49
answer.
answer。
26:50
But honestly, it seemed familiar to me.
但说实话，这对我来说似曾相识。
26:52
I interviewed other tech founders and they would withhold some information and try
我采访过其他科技创始人，他们会保留一些信息，试图
26:57
to give you the information that was beneficial to their IPO or to their, you know, to their
只给你那些有利于他们IPO或者有利于他们，你知道，有利于他们
27:01
round of funding.
融资轮次的信息。
27:03
And so the idea of that manipulation, it was always at play, you know, in these interviews,
所以那种操纵的想法，它一直存在，你知道，在那些采访中，
27:07
these are not like unvarnished people.
这些不是那种不加修饰的人。
27:09
Again, back to my point about like, you know, you're investing in a person.
再说一次，回到我的观点，你知道的，你是在投资一个人。
27:14
If you're, if you're not compelled by that person, you know, you can't believe what they're
如果你，如果你对那个人没有那种感觉，你知道，你没法相信他们说的
27:17
going to do, you know, I, I felt like that was a lot of what everyone was doing at, at
想做，你知道，我，我觉得那很大程度上是每个人当时都在做的事，在，在
27:22
the time.
这一次。
27:23
But so, so that, that scene where she cries and, and she blames her, her entourage at the
但是，所以，就是那个她哭了的场景，然后她怪她的随行人员在那
27:28
time for pushing her into the limelight, I felt like is, you know, shirking responsibility,
是时候把她推到聚光灯下了，我觉得那是在推卸责任，
27:36
her responsibility.
她的责任。
27:37
And there's another moment where she does that too when Sonny Balwani comes up and without
还有一个时刻她也这么做了，当Sonny Balwani出现的时候，虽然没有
27:45
explicitly doing so, she implicitly throws him under the bus.
明说，但她暗示性地把他推出去背锅了。
27:49
Sorry, we should just say Sonny Balwani was her partner, her romantic partner, but also
抱歉，我们应该说明一下Sonny Balwani是她的伴侣，她的恋人，但同时也是
27:55
her business partner at Theranos and he was the chief operating officer, if I remember.
她在Theranos的商业伙伴，如果我没记错的话，他是首席运营官。
28:00
He was her second in command and he was the chief operating officer, and he essentially
他是她的二把手，也是首席运营官，而他基本上
28:05
ran the company with her.
和她一起经营公司。
28:08
But there's, there's an unwillingness to take any sort of responsibility in Elizabeth
但有一种不愿意承担任何责任的态度，在Elizabeth
28:15
Holmes.
Holmes。
28:16
There's, you know, this, this subtle blaming of other people that I find incredibly manipulative
你知道，这种微妙地责怪别人的做法，我觉得非常有操控性
28:23
because she's doing that at the same time as she's trying to get you to, to feel sympathy
因为她在做这件事的同时，还试图让你产生同情。
28:29
for her.
给她的。
28:30
Yeah.
是的。
28:31
This is a great place to take a break.
这是一个很好的休息点。
28:33
When we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about why Elizabeth Holmes
我们回来后，会再聊一聊为什么Elizabeth Holmes
28:36
continues to obsess us and what it says about the tech industry today.
一直让我们着迷，以及这说明了当今科技行业的什么。
28:40
Hey, I'm Max Brown.
嘿，我是Max Brown。
28:59
You know, the athletic is home to the world's best sports journalism, but this fall, just
你知道，The Athletic 汇聚了世界上最顶尖的体育新闻，但今年秋天，只是
29:03
in time for football season, we're launching something unlike anything we've ever done.
赶上橄榄球赛季，我们要推出一个前所未有的东西。
29:08
We're building a daily show streaming live on YouTube, me, Kofi Oboa, Charles McDonnell
我们正在打造一档每天在YouTube上直播的节目，我、Kofi Oboa、Charles McDonnell
29:14
and the Athletic Zone, Zach Harper and Daniel Popper.
还有Athletic Zone的Zach Harper和Daniel Popper。
29:17
We'll be hosting live, watch along to the biggest games with award-winning analysis and
我们将进行直播，和大家一起观看最重磅的比赛，带来获奖级别的分析和
29:22
behind-the-scenes insights from athletic insiders.
来自体育内部人士的幕后见解。
29:25
On off days, we'll go deeper into the hard-hitting stories you can't get enough of.
在休息日，我们会深入那些让你欲罢不能的硬核故事。
29:29
And we want you, the smartest fans in sports, to be part of it.
我们希望你们——最聪明的体育迷们——参与其中。
29:33
Come drop questions in the chat and we'll bring the answers straight from the source.
来聊天区提问吧，我们会直接从源头带来答案。
29:37
The Athletic Live presented by Google Gemini.
The Athletic Live，由 Google Gemini 呈现。
29:40
Follow us on YouTube and we'll see you in the chat.
在 YouTube 上关注我们，聊天区见。
29:48
Welcome back.
欢迎回来。
29:49
I'm with Aaron Griffith, John Kerry Rue and Caitlin Roper, talking about Elizabeth Holmes
我和Aaron Griffith、John Kerry Rue还有Caitlin Roper在一起，聊Elizabeth Holmes
29:53
and the new documentary by Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim.
以及Nathan Fielder和Lance Oppenheim的新纪录片。
29:57
John, you are writing an essay about your experience watching this movie and your reaction
John，你在写一篇关于你看这部电影的体验和你的反应的文章
30:03
to it.
对它来说。
30:04
And also about the question of why Elizabeth Holmes is still an enduring figure.
还有关于为什么Elizabeth Holmes仍然是一个持久人物的这个问题。
30:07
I mean, she's such a sort of emblematic figure of 2010s and tech.
我的意思是，她算是2010年代科技界的一个标志性人物。
30:12
And yet here we are in 2026 and we seem unable to kind of escape her.
然而现在我们身处2026年，似乎还是没法摆脱她。
30:15
So what for you is what is the thing that makes Elizabeth Holmes such a continuous object
那么对你来说，是什么让Elizabeth Holmes成为这样一个持续被关注的对象
30:20
of obsession for culture and media?
对文化和媒体的痴迷？
30:24
You know, I've long asked myself that, why are people so fascinated with this person?
你知道吗，我很久以来一直在问自己这个问题，为什么人们对这个人如此着迷？
30:32
Because I got to say I found the story interesting, you know, for a couple of years.
因为我得说，我觉得这个故事挺有意思的，你知道，这几年来。
30:37
But it's gotten a little bit old for me personally.
但对我个人来说，这已经有点腻了。
30:41
I think the answer is that people are captivated with the psychology of deceit, especially when
我觉得答案是，人们着迷于欺骗的心理学，尤其是当
30:53
it's a woman doing the deceiving.
实施欺骗的是一个女人的时候。
30:55
And I think there's another dimension here, which is that this was a medical story.
而且我觉得这里还有另一个维度，那就是这是一个医疗故事。
30:59
This was not just, you know, a fraud where investors were defrauded.
这不仅仅是，你知道，一个投资者被骗的欺诈案。
31:04
It wasn't just your run-of-the-mill corporate fraud.
它不仅仅是那种普通的企业欺诈。
31:06
There was a public health element to it where, you know, patients' lives were arguably put
它还有一个公共卫生的层面，你知道，患者的生命可以说被置于
31:14
in jeopardy.
处于危险之中。
31:15
And so I think people are just fascinated with the notion of what goes through the mind
所以我觉得人们就是对这个想法很着迷，想知道脑子里到底在想什么
31:21
of a woman who's willing to play with patient's lives.
一个愿意拿病人的生命当儿戏的女人。
31:27
And I think that, you know, clearly a decade in people are still captivated by this.
而且我觉得，你知道， clearly 都十年了，人们还是被这个深深吸引。
31:35
Caitlin, you were saying before that you felt like gender played a pretty significant role
Caitlin，你之前说你觉得性别起到了相当重要的作用
31:39
also in her rise.
also in her rise.
31:40
I mean, do you agree with John that this is part of what's happening with the continuing kind
我是说，你同意John的看法吗，认为这是持续进行的那类事情的一部分
31:44
of interest in her?
对她有兴趣吗？
31:45
Yes.
是的。
31:46
I think that as a culture in the United States, we see men lie all the time and they get
我认为在美国文化中，我们经常看到男人撒谎，而他们却
31:53
caught in those lies and we don't see them reviled in this way.
被抓到那些谎言里，我们也没看到他们被这样唾弃。
31:57
So, you know, I'm not equating, you know, stealing money or a phony business deal with exactly
所以，你知道，我不是在把偷钱或者虚假的商业交易跟这个完全等同起来
32:05
what Elizabeth Holmes did, but I think we are shocked when we see a woman do that and
Elizabeth Holmes做的事，但我觉得我们看到一个女人这样做时会感到震惊，而
32:11
we are not shocked when we see a man do that.
我们看到一个男人这样做时就不会震惊。
32:14
And I do think that gender plays a huge role in just like the idea that we want to continue
我确实认为性别在其中扮演了重要角色，就像我们想要持续
32:20
to drag, like, you know, focus and energy against a woman over time.
去拖拽、你知道的，把注意力和精力集中在一个女人身上，随着时间推移。
32:25
I think there's a lot of energy for that.
我觉得有很多这样的能量存在。
32:27
Now, I'm not saying at all that I think that that energy is not deserved for Elizabeth
现在，我完全不是说我认为对Elizabeth来说那种能量是不应得的。
32:32
Holmes, but I do think there's culture at play on the question of who we disparage and
Holmes，但我确实认为在我们要贬低谁这个问题上，文化因素在起作用，而且
32:39
continue to disparage over time.
随着时间的推移继续贬低。
32:40
And Max, to your question, I mean, her gender was absolutely a part of the rise because
Max，回答你的问题，我是说，她的性别绝对是崛起的一部分，因为
32:46
like Caitlin was saying, like, she was the entire tech press was looking for examples of
就像Caitlin说的那样，整个科技媒体都在找例子
32:52
standout female founders because at that time in the mid 2010s, everyone kind of looked
standout female founders因为在那时候，2010年代中期，大家都有点看着
32:58
around and realized like, oh my god, they're where are all the women like Silicon Valley
然后我环顾四周，心想，天哪，她们都在哪儿呢，所有的女性都去哪儿了，就像硅谷
33:02
more so than any other sector seems to have a real problem with like elevating women
似乎比其他任何行业都更严重地存在一个真正的问题，就是提升女性地位
33:08
when we've got all these tech bro unicorn founders, why aren't there like any female
当我们有这么多科技兄弟独角兽创始人时，为什么几乎没有女性
33:13
founders of billion dollar companies?
创办十亿美元公司的创始人？
33:15
And then suddenly, here is one.
然后突然间，出现了这样一个人。
33:17
And so that's why she got put on the cover of like every business magazine because we
所以这就是为什么她登上了几乎所有商业杂志的封面，因为我们
33:22
finally found an example of it.
终于找到了一个这样的例子。
33:24
And so I think this kind of happened later too with the quote unquote girl boss era where
所以我觉得这种情况后来在所谓的“女强人时代”也发生了，那时候
33:28
like a lot of female founders got disproportionate press because there was so much excitement
就像很多女性创始人因为当时有太多兴奋而获得了不成比例的媒体报道
33:34
about promoting a female founder.
关于推荐一位女性创始人。
33:36
And then of course, they got disproportionate criticism and like, you know, they would call
然后当然，他们受到了不成比例的批评，而且你知道，他们会叫
33:40
it takedowns because of all that press and attention.
它下架是因为那些媒体报道和关注。
33:44
Yeah.
是的。
33:45
And Aaron, like to your point, it's like literally, I wrote about her because I was a woman
And Aaron，就像你说的， literally，我写她是因为我是一个女人
33:51
editor at a mostly male magazine covering a mostly male industry.
在一本以男性为主的杂志做编辑，报道一个以男性为主的行业。
33:55
And it was so novel to me to find a founder who was a woman and not only that, but someone
而对我来说，发现一位女性创始人真是太新奇了，不仅如此，而且这个人
34:01
in biotech.
在生物科技领域。
34:02
So I do think gender played a huge role in my personally, my covering here at that
所以我觉得性别在我个人身上起了很大作用，我在这里的报道中也是如此
34:07
early stage.
早期阶段。
34:08
But to your question of the enduring interest, that one is a little bit different because
但说到你问的那个持久兴趣的问题，那个有点不一样，因为
34:14
I there are just so many elements of her story that are a little bit like odd or attention
I 她的故事里有太多元素有点奇怪或者说引人注意
34:20
grabbing.
抓取。
34:21
I mean, from the outfits to the voice to like all of the kind of like the secrecy and
我是说，从服装到声音，再到那种神秘兮兮的感觉，还有
34:25
obsession.
痴迷。
34:26
Like a mother.
像一位母亲一样。
34:27
Yeah.
是的。
34:28
Yes.
对。
34:29
Yeah.
是的。
34:30
There are just enough pieces of it that I feel like it touches every possible demographic.
它的组成部分刚好足够多，让我觉得它触及了每一个可能的群体。
34:34
Like one thing from the trial, I remember talking to a lot of the toward the end, there
比如审判中的一件事，我记得在接近尾声的时候和很多人聊过，
34:38
were a lot of spectators showing up.
有很多旁观者出现。
34:40
And including people who were in a book club who read John's book and who came together as
包括那些参加过读书会、读过John的书、并且聚在一起成为
34:46
like a little book club outing.
就像一个小小的读书会出游。
34:47
And you know, I'm asking them like, what are you guys doing?
你知道，我就问他们，你们在做什么？
34:50
Me here.
我来了。
34:51
And one of them told me, which I'll never forget, like, oh, we're just fans of white color
其中一个人跟我说了句话，我永远忘不了，就是说，哦，我们只是白色的粉丝
34:55
crime.
犯罪。
34:56
And I was like, are you, you mean as a, as a book genre or as a genre of story?
我就想，你是说，你是说作为一种书的类型还是作为一种故事类型？
35:02
Okay.
好吧。
35:03
Sure.
当然。
35:04
And in the same way that there are people who are fans of like, you know, murder stories
而且就像有些人喜欢那种，你知道，谋杀故事
35:07
or murder podcasts, like there's also a fraud contingent as well.
或者谋杀播客一样，也有一个欺诈的群体。
35:12
John must be such a celebrity, those people.
John肯定是个名人，那些人。
35:14
Yeah.
是的。
35:16
I agree with everything you guys just said.
我完全同意你们刚才说的所有内容。
35:19
But let me ask this though, we're, we're now, you know, 11 years after I broke this,
不过让我问一下，我们现在，你知道，距离我打破这个已经11年了，
35:25
this story in the Wall Street Journal.
《华尔街日报》上的这篇报道。
35:28
And who is stoking the interest?
那么是谁在推高这种兴趣呢？
35:32
Who is recreating reasons for us to, to again, pay attention to her?
谁在为我们重新制造理由，让我们再次关注她？
35:40
It's Elizabeth herself.
是Elizabeth本人。
35:42
She is the one who invited these filmmakers in or home, 30 days, 34 days before she was
是她邀请了这些电影制作人进来或者到家里，30天，34天之前，在她
35:49
scheduled to go to prison.
预定要去监狱之前。
35:52
She's the one who was still asking for the public attention.
是她仍然在寻求公众的关注。
35:59
And so I, you know, I think we also have her own very proactive efforts to blame for
所以我觉得，你知道，我们也要归咎于她自己非常主动的努力，
36:08
this, for why this is still, you know, a story that's in the news and that's generating
因为这个，因为这个仍然是，你知道，一个还在新闻里、还在产生
36:14
tons of coverage, 11 years later.
大量的报道，11年后。
36:17
That's a great point.
这是个很好的观点。
36:18
And honestly, I would not be surprised if Sam Bankman Fried is currently emailing Nathan
说实话，如果Sam Bankman Fried现在正在给Nathan发邮件，我一点都不会感到惊讶
36:22
Fielder about getting a meeting.
Fielder关于争取一次会面的事。
36:26
Unfortunately, SPF really has nothing on Liz Holmes as a kind of cultural figure.
很遗憾，SPF在Liz Holmes作为一种文化人物这方面真的完全比不上。
36:30
He just does not have the juice and the way she does.
他就是没有她那种劲儿和那种方式。
36:33
I mean, sorry, he totally reality TV producer about it.
我的意思是，抱歉，他完全是用真人秀制片人的那一套来处理的。
36:36
He's got something that he just doesn't have.
他有一些他就是没有的东西。
36:38
So one thing I'd love to talk about is the romantic relationships of Elizabeth Holmes,
所以我很想聊的一件事就是Elizabeth Holmes的恋爱关系，
36:44
which have been on display in these two giant ways in the trial and all of the reporting
这些在审判和所有报道中都以这两种巨大的方式展现出来
36:48
around what was happening at Theranos, but also in this movie in which we are inside
围绕Theranos当时发生的事情，但在这部电影里我们也身处其中
36:54
her marriage inside her house with her husband and her children.
她的婚姻，在她家里，和她的丈夫、她的孩子们。
36:59
And there's, I don't, you know, I don't want to spoil the movie, but I would say the
还有，我不，你知道，我不想剧透电影，但我想说那个
37:03
kind of extreme devotion that was captured in a lot of what we learned about her relationship
那种极端的投入，在我们了解到的关于她那段关系的很多内容中都有体现
37:12
with Sunny Bawani was very, very similar here.
和Sunny Bawani在这里非常非常相似。
37:16
And there's something watching this as a woman of trying to toggle between, well, first
而且有某种东西在关注这件事，作为一个女人试图在之间切换，嗯，首先
37:24
of all, you're still asking yourself the questions, is this real?
最重要的是，你还在问自己这些问题，这是真的吗？
37:27
Do they think it's real?
他们认为这是真的吗？
37:28
Do they do real people talk like this to each other?
他们真的会这样跟彼此说话吗？
37:31
Like, you know, I, that's, that's one fundamental question.
就比如说，你知道吧，我，那个，这是一个根本性的问题。
37:34
But then like what is the role of this, you know, partnership, romantic partnership and
但那么这个角色是什么呢，你知道，伴侣关系、恋爱关系还有
37:39
business partnership?
商业合作？
37:40
And then why is she picking these guys?
然后她为什么选这些人？
37:44
What I, what I found so fascinating is when she's talking, her and Billy are getting
我觉得特别有意思的是，当她在说话的时候，她和Billy正在
37:48
really excited, like, jazzing each other up, talking about Theranos 2.0.
真的很兴奋，就像，互相打气，聊着Theranos 2.0的事。
37:52
And her parents are there.
她父母也在那儿。
37:54
And they're just kind of slowly zooming in on her parents and the looks on their faces,
然后镜头就慢慢拉近到她父母和他们脸上的表情，
38:00
they're just, you can just see them just sort of, you know, stealing themselves because
他们就，你能看出来他们就是那种，你知道，强撑着镇定，因为
38:05
it feels like they're like, here we go again.
感觉他们就像是，又来了。
38:07
Yeah, they look, they look very nervous and around that time in the film, Nathan asks Mr.
对，他们看起来，他们看起来非常紧张，就在电影里那个时间点，Nathan问那位先生
38:14
Holmes, Christian Holmes, whether it's a good idea for Elizabeth to be getting into business
Holmes，Christian Holmes，Elizabeth 涉足商业到底是不是个好主意
38:19
again with a romantic partner given what happened the first time.
再次和一个浪漫伴侣在一起，考虑到第一次发生的情况。
38:24
And his answer is, good question, I trust Billy, good question, I trust Billy, you know,
他的回答是，好问题，我信任Billy，好问题，我信任Billy，你知道，
38:33
an implied of course, as I didn't trust a sunny, my, my view of those two relationships
当然这是隐含的，因为我不信任一个乐观的、我对那两段关系的看法
38:42
is that as much as Elizabeth tried to blame it all on sunny in the trial, you know, the
尽管Elizabeth在审判中尽力把一切都归咎于Sunny，你知道，那个
38:49
jury obviously didn't buy it, it convicted her, I didn't buy it.
陪审团显然不买账，定了她的罪，我也不买账。
38:53
I do think there was a grain of truth there in the sense that sunny was a terrible influence
我确实觉得那里有一点道理，从某种意义上说，Sunny是个很糟糕的影响
38:59
on Elizabeth Holmes.
关于Elizabeth Holmes。
39:01
And I think we see through this film that Billy Evans is a terrible influence on Elizabeth
而且我觉得通过这部片子我们能看出Billy Evans对Elizabeth产生了很坏的影响
39:07
Holmes, he's narcissistic, he's arrogant, he's controlling, he's manipulative, he lies.
Holmes，他自恋，他傲慢，他控制欲强，他善于操纵，他撒谎。
39:15
And I feel like the pattern is repeating itself.
而且我觉得这个模式正在重演。
39:18
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that scene you describe, then Billy Evans appears even
嗯，我是说，我觉得，你知道，你描述的那个场景，然后Billy Evans甚至出现了
39:24
though the dad Christian Holmes has just said, I trust Billy, and he comes right over
though the dad Christian Holmes has just said, I trust Billy, and he comes right over
39:30
to say, no more talking, no more talking.
to say, no more talking, no more talking.
39:33
So like that was a really, like I thought that that scene was very powerful.
So like that was a really, like I thought that that scene was very powerful.
39:38
But you know, I do, both of these guys seem pretty awful, but I do feel like as with
But you know, I do, both of these guys seem pretty awful, but I do feel like as with
39:43
everything around Elizabeth Holmes, we have to come back to like what's going on inside
everything around Elizabeth Holmes, we have to come back to like what's going on inside
39:48
of her?
of her?
39:49
Like what, what is this?
比如什么，这是什么？
39:50
Because not only is she having these relationships with these kind of men, but she's also, she's
因为她不仅和这类男人有这些关系，而且她还
39:57
also using this like intense, like eye catching, like desperate, extreme, bombastic language
还使用这种非常强烈的、引人注目的、绝望的、极端的、夸张的语言
40:05
in both cases, like, right?
在两种情况下都是如此，对吧？
40:07
So it was like, there's something there that's performative and also some kind of construction,
所以就好像，这里面有些东西是表演性的，同时也是某种建构，
40:11
a romantic, an understanding of what romance is, like there's something in here that's very
一种浪漫的、对浪漫是什么的理解，就好像这里面有些东西非常
40:16
strange on the question of like why, you know, I put it this way, you know, I don't know
说到为什么这个问题，挺奇怪的，你知道，我这么说吧，你知道，我也不太清楚
40:22
how you guys feel about PDA, but seeing people like walk down the street and they're making
你们对PDA怎么看，但看到人们走在街上，他们在那儿
40:27
out or they're talking in a loud, loving way, these things don't bother me particularly.
或者他们大声地、充满爱意地说话，这些事情并不特别困扰我。
40:32
But like having a friend say like he is my everything, like that would, like take, let's,
但就像有个朋友说，他是我的一切，那样的话，就像，会，让我们，
40:38
you know, let's go to a psychologist from here, you know what I mean?
你知道吧，咱们从这儿去找个心理学家吧，你懂我意思吧？
40:41
Like it's like, and she's doing all of that.
就像，她正在做所有这些事情。
40:43
And so this question of like, what does she think her romantic relationships are because
所以这个问题就是，她怎么看待自己的恋爱关系，因为
40:47
we see her in this movie repeatedly show us that what she thinks this is is perfect par,
我们在这部电影里反复看到她向我们展示，她以为这就是完美的一对，
40:52
you know, perfect parody, they're aligned and synced.
你知道，完美的配对，他们是契合的、同步的。
40:55
They're two twin souls, they're dolphins, you know, leaping out of the water towards each
他们是两个孪生灵魂，他们是海豚，你知道，从水里跃出向
40:59
other.
彼此飞去。
41:00
It's like, it's, it's very bizarre.
就像，这，这非常诡异。
41:03
And that's what the text with Sonny Bolwani reveals.
而这正是与Sonny Bolwani的那段文字所揭示的内容。
41:05
Yeah.
是的。
41:06
Yeah.
是的。
41:07
Like what's that about?
这是在讲什么呢？
41:08
It calls their love a monument to love or they're building monuments to love every day,
它把他们的爱称为爱的纪念碑，或者说他们每天都在建造爱的纪念碑，
41:16
every day, every day.
每一天，每一天。
41:18
I, you know, I think all that being said, yes, it's, it's bizarre and it's grandiose and
我觉得，你知道，话虽如此，是的，这确实很怪异，很宏大，而且
41:23
it's cartoonishly romantic.
有一种漫画式的浪漫。
41:27
But I do think probably the most genuine thing in the movie is their love.
但我确实觉得电影里最真实的东西是他们的爱。
41:32
I actually do think they love each other.
我真的觉得他们彼此相爱。
41:35
And I also think that Elizabeth and Sonny were in love.
而且我也觉得Elizabeth和Sonny是相爱的。
41:40
It doesn't, I think help explain a little bit why she was so willing to bring Nathan
我觉得这并不能，嗯，稍微解释一下为什么她那么愿意把Nathan带来
41:44
Fielder in to live with her for 30 days before she went to jail, which is to say like,
Fielder搬来和她一起住了30天，然后她就进监狱了，也就是说，
41:49
she really clearly has, she's a, she commits full on to basically everything she does.
她显然有一种，她是一个，她基本上对做的每件事都全力以赴。
41:55
And I, I don't know whether that's about reassuring herself or about, you know, sort
而我，我不知道那是为了安慰自己，还是说，你知道，那种
41:58
of faking it till you make it.
假装成功直到真的成功。
42:00
But if you're going to commit to your relationship to that extent, if you're going to commit
但如果你要对你的感情投入到那种程度，如果你要对
42:03
to your lies to that extent, you're going to commit to your fraud and your business.
你的谎言投入到那种程度，你就会对你的欺诈和你的生意全力以赴。
42:07
Why not commit to inviting this weird Canadian comedian to make a documentary about you
为什么不干脆答应邀请这个古怪的加拿大喜剧演员来给你拍一部纪录片
42:11
in one of the most intimate moments of your entire life?
在你整个人生中最私密的时刻之一？
42:14
And the irony being like, it's all about transparency and you can see everything is literally
讽刺的是，一切都关乎透明度，你能看到一切，字面上就是
42:19
the title.
这个标题。
42:20
And Billy is then the one cutting off access like left and right all throughout the film.
而Billy反而是那个在整部片子里到处切断访问权限的人。
42:26
I want to ask a question.
我想问一个问题。
42:27
I think this is a good, a good place to mention it.
我觉得这是一个很好的，很好的地方来提一下。
42:29
But there's, there's one way of looking at this movie is of sort of Elizabeth Holmes
但是，有一种看待这部电影的方式，就是把Elizabeth Holmes某种程度上
42:34
as a kind of allegory for tech.
看作科技行业的一种寓言。
42:36
Like you have this, this way that she was it, as we've been saying, a kind of emblematic
就像，她以这种方式，正如我们一直在说的，某种意义上是
42:41
figure of the 2010s.
2010年代的一个标志性人物。
42:42
She's, she's doing the Steve Jobs thing.
她在做Steve Jobs那一套。
42:44
She's getting all these, these covers and then there's the downfall.
她得到了所有这些，这些封面，然后就是衰落。
42:47
And I wanted to ask you, Aaron, since you're reporting on this all the time, you know, I
我想问你，Aaron，既然你一直在报道这方面的事情，你知道，我
42:51
think it's fair to say Elizabeth was like a, an emblematic figure 10 years ago.
我觉得可以说Elizabeth在10年前算是一个标志性人物。
42:56
Is she still now?
她现在还在吗？
42:57
Well, like, what is the relationship that people who work in the valley right now have
那现在在硅谷工作的人，他们跟这个的关系到底是什么样的
43:00
with her?
和她一起吗？
43:01
I think in general, the tech industry kind of rejects somebody who has been convicted
我觉得总的来说，科技行业有点排斥那些被定罪过的人
43:07
of fraud.
欺诈的。
43:10
During the trial, I wrote a lot about how this, the, the trial was kind of emblematic or
在审判期间，我写了很多关于这个，这个，这个审判在某种程度上象征性地或者
43:16
emblematic of like Silicon Valley's ethos of fake it till you make it and how Holmes had
体现了硅谷那种“fake it till you make it”的精神，以及Holmes是如何
43:21
simply taken the same thing everyone else does, including Elon Musk or other founders
就是拿了和别人一样的东西，包括Elon Musk或其他创始人
43:26
who need to exaggerate to, you know, get people on board with their vision.
他们需要向谁夸大其词，你知道，才能让人们认同他们的愿景。
43:30
But she had just taken it a little bit too far and, you know, Judge Davila even talked
但她只是做得有点太过分了，而且，你知道，Davila法官甚至谈到了
43:34
about that in his sentencing and at the end of the trial as well.
关于这一点，在他的量刑听证会上以及审判结束时也都提到了。
43:38
So I had a lot of fights with Silicon Valley investors about this who were like, no, she
所以我跟硅谷的投资人为此吵了很多次，他们就说，不，她
43:43
is not part of Silicon Valley.
不属于硅谷。
43:46
This is not what we're about.
这不是我们要做的事。
43:48
But it's really hard, I think, for a lot of founders to parse where that line is because
但这真的很难，我觉得，对很多创始人来说，很难分辨那条线在哪里，因为
43:53
she was following the playbook that everybody and, you know, Caitlin's talked about this
她在遵循那套所有人都在用的playbook，你知道，Caitlin也谈过这个
43:57
a little bit as well.
也有一点。
43:58
Like you do have to exaggerate and paint a grandiose vision that may not be anywhere close
你确实得夸张一点，描绘一个可能差得远的宏大愿景
44:04
to reality in order to get investors on board, in order to get employees on board with
为了拉到投资人，为了让员工也认同
44:09
like whatever thing it is that you're inventing and bringing into the world.
就像你正在发明并带入这个世界的任何东西一样。
44:13
Obviously, when that crosses into lying and deception, it becomes illegal.
显然，当这跨越到撒谎和欺骗的时候，就变得违法了。
44:20
I think there's a very strong argument that you can make that she was absolutely a product
我认为有一个非常有力的论点可以支持，她绝对是一个产物
44:25
of Silicon Valley culture and that a lot of people get really confused about where the line is,
关于硅谷文化，很多人真的搞不清楚界限在哪里，
44:30
especially when you have people like Elon Musk who is constantly promising things that he
特别是当你有像Elon Musk这样的人，他总是承诺一些他
44:34
doesn't deliver on.
没有兑现。
44:36
Right, I would say there's an extremely fine line, extremely fine line between Elizabeth Holmes
对，我想说伊丽莎白·霍姆斯之间有一条极其细微的界线，极其细微的界线
44:43
and Elon Musk.
还有Elon Musk。
44:44
And I think it would be completely legitimate for some lay person who parachutes in
我认为，对于一个突然介入的普通人来说，这完全是合理的
44:52
to Silicon Valley today or to American society today to wonder why one of them is in prison
to Silicon Valley today or to American society today to wonder why one of them is in prison
44:58
and not the other.
而不是另一个。
45:00
And I would say as an editor at Wired around that time, did I get a tour of a factory?
而我想说，作为当时《连线》杂志的编辑，我有没有参观过一家工厂？
45:05
So I could see incredible Tesla robot arms before there was a car.
所以我能看到不可思议的Tesla机械臂，那时候还没有车。
45:11
And there wasn't a car and there still wasn't a car and there still wasn't a car after that.
然后没有车，还是没有车，再之后还是没有车。
45:15
So not to mention whatever high-speed rail in California, every single founder is
所以更不用说加州的那个高铁了，每一个创始人都是
45:23
trafficking across that line. So I agree that that is true about Elon and Elizabeth Holmes.
跨过那条线的非法交易。所以我同意关于Elon和Elizabeth Holmes这一点是真的。
45:30
So in that spirit, we've got there on us two point of coming. Do you guys think
所以本着这种精神，我们已经到了第二个关键点。你们觉得呢
45:34
is this the next chapter? Are they going to be successful? Are we going to see
这是下一个篇章吗？他们会成功吗？我们会看到
45:39
Elizabeth Holmes run Walgreens Wellness Center anytime soon?
Elizabeth Holmes会很快去经营Walgreens Wellness Center吗？
45:44
Oh my gosh. I don't understand. The technology worked the first time.
我的天哪。我不明白。这项技术第一次就成功了。
45:50
The machine could do hundreds of tests.
这台机器可以做数百项测试。
45:54
She explains it in the film. The cloud sent the orders into the cartridge.
她在电影里解释了这一点。云把指令发送到了墨盒里。
46:00
Were you listening?
你在听吗？
46:02
Everything worked perfectly.
一切运行得非常完美。
46:04
So why does there need to be a second iteration of the technology?
那么为什么这项技术还需要有第二次迭代？
46:08
Why do they have to use lasers now?
为什么他们现在必须使用激光？
46:11
And why don't there even need to be, you know, drawings and another prototype?
那为什么甚至都不需要有，你知道，图纸和另一个原型呢？
46:15
It was all done right the first time.
第一次就全做对了。
46:18
Okay. My question for you, John Carey is, and I thought about this as I watched the movie,
好。John Carey，我想问你的问题是，我看这部电影的时候想到了这个，
46:24
what was your like emotional weather as you watched it? Like how did you feel?
你看的时候情绪天气是什么样的？就是你感觉怎么样？
46:29
So I've seen it twice and the first time I saw it was about 10 days ago at the A24
我看了两遍，第一次看大概是10天前在Manhattan的A24
46:35
offices in Manhattan, and I was in a screening room virtually by myself. Actually one other person
办公室，我一个人在一个放映室里。其实还有另外一个人
46:41
was there. My wife, you know, I did nearly jump out of my chair. The first time I saw the scene of
我当时在场。我妻子，你知道，我差点从椅子上跳起来。第一次看到那个场景，
46:49
her crying and blaming other people for pushing her into the limelight.
她哭着责怪别人把她推到聚光灯下。
46:54
I would say that the second time, I enjoyed the film even more the second time.
我想说，第二次看的时候，我更喜欢这部电影了。
47:02
I revisiting some scenes, the second time around I felt like there was more,
我重温了一些场景，第二次看的时候我觉得有更多，
47:13
there were more pregnant with meaning than perhaps I'd given them credit for the first time
有些场景比我第一次看时认为的更有深意。
47:19
around. I guess I was over two viewings. I was really, you know, one over by the artistry
我想我看了两遍。我真的，你知道，被它的艺术性打动了。
47:29
of the, of the way, you know, they filmed this thing, but also the structure, the amount of
就是，那个，你知道，他们拍这个东西的方式，还有它的结构，投入的
47:35
meta thinking that went into it, how unusual it is, and whereas the first time I saw it,
元思考量，它有多不寻常，而我第一次看的时候，
47:44
Fielder living in that house in San Diego with them and asking Elizabeth repeatedly whether
Fielder住在圣地亚哥那栋房子里跟他们一起，反复问Elizabeth她
47:51
she did anything wrong and her repeatedly denying, but she didn't do anything wrong.
是不是做错了什么，而她反复否认，但她确实没做错什么。
47:55
That first, you know, time that I saw those 90 minutes was frustrating a little bit for me,
那第一次，你知道，我看那90分钟的时候，对我来说有点 frustrate，
48:01
because, you know, I would have liked to jump in and grab the mic from Fielder and
因为，你知道，我会想跳进去从Fielder手里抢过麦克风然后
48:07
drill down a little bit more and not be so polite, but, you know, on the whole, I really like this movie.
再深入一点，别那么客气，但是，你知道，总的来说，我真的很喜欢这部电影。
48:15
Caitlin, can I ask you the same question about your emotional weather as you watched it?
Caitlin，我能问你同样的问题吗，关于你看这部电影时的情绪天气？
48:23
Well, I have a hat that says make movies shorter, and on the back it says 97 minutes with credit.
嗯，我有一顶帽子，上面写着“让电影短一点”，背面写着“97分钟含字幕”。
48:32
And so that's my philosophical platform. So I went into this thinking not only are we back to
所以这就是我的哲学立场。所以我进去看的时候想着，我们不仅在文化上回到了
48:38
homes culturally, you know, or not that we left, but also we are spending three hours with Elizabeth
homes，你知道，或者说我们从未离开，而且我们还要花三个小时和Elizabeth
48:45
homes. And that, you know, my emotional weather to that was like, what the fuck, you know, you know,
homes在一起。那个，你知道，我对此的情绪天气就像是，搞什么鬼，你知道，你知道，
48:52
but on a number of levels, but I have been asking myself this question, you know, for more than 10
但在很多层面上，你知道，我问自己这个问题已经超过10
48:58
years, like, what does she think is real? What does she think is real? Like, what is real? And what
几年了，就像，她觉得什么是真实的？她觉得什么是真实的？就像，什么是真实的？那什么
49:04
I know, what is real now, thanks to John, what does she think is real? And what does she think is
我知道，现在什么是真实的，多亏了John，她认为什么是真实的？她认为什么是
49:09
happening? And so that was how I came in, like, my feelings were like, what are we going to learn
发生什么了？所以那就是我介入的方式，我的感觉就像是，我们到底要学什么
49:14
that adds to what we know about her? Are we going to learn anything different? Are we going to
这补充了我们对她的了解吗？我们会了解到什么不同的东西吗？我们会
49:18
see and perceive her in a different way? And how is it going to make us feel? And really a lot of my
以不同的方式看待和感知她？这会让我们有什么感受？而且真的，我的很多
49:23
feelings at the beginning were really just about the filmmaking. Like, what, you know, this question is
一开始的感受其实真的只是关于电影制作。就是，你知道，这个问题是
49:28
the idea of objectivity is nowhere anywhere in the movie. And on purpose, like John said,
客观性的概念在整部片子里根本不存在。而且是故意的，就像John说的，
49:36
thoughtfully so. It's meta, they're thinking about it. They obviously did incredibly important
是深思熟虑的。它是元层面的，他们在思考这件事。他们显然做了极其重要的
49:42
thinking, not just filming, right, about what they were going to do, not to mention the edit.
思考，不只是拍摄，对吧，关于他们要做什么，更不用说剪辑了。
49:47
But there's just lots of things in there that are odd. The feeling of it felt manipulative in
但里面就是有很多东西很奇怪。那种感觉对我来说在每个层面都感觉是操控性的，
49:53
every way to me, like emotionally. It doesn't mean I didn't like the movie. I actually loved it.
比如情感上。这不代表我不喜欢这部电影。我其实很喜欢它。
49:58
I thought it was great. But I did feel like manipulated on every level by Elizabeth Holmes,
我觉得很棒。但我确实感觉在各个方面都被Elizabeth Holmes操纵了，
50:04
by Billy Evans, by Lance and Nathan. And I don't, and I, you know, I love movies. So I don't mind
by Billy Evans，by Lance和Nathan。而且我不，而且我，你知道，我很喜欢电影。所以我不介意
50:11
being manipulated, but I was so conscious of it that I felt it the whole time. Yeah. My experience
被操纵，但我对此太有意识了，以至于我全程都能感觉到。是的。我的体验
50:17
of watching this was like, I, I love, but I'm terrified of cringe comedy, you know, and so I had
看这个的过程就像是，我，我很喜欢，但我特别怕那种尴尬喜剧，你知道吧，所以我当时
50:23
this, this sense of like really wanting to kind of hide my head sometimes as the, as the encounters
这个，这种感觉就是有时候真的想把自己藏起来，面对那些，那些遭遇
50:29
got more and more awkward. But unlike, say, like the British officer, whatever, where I really,
变得越来越尴尬了。但不像，比如说，那个英国军官什么的，我真正，
50:34
as my wife will tell you, just have to completely go under the couch to like have it happen.
就像我老婆会告诉你的，你得完全钻到沙发底下去才能让它发生。
50:38
I was riveted. Like, I could not hide. I could not look away. It was like total anxiety, total
我看得入迷了。就像，我没法躲。我没法把视线移开。就是那种完全的焦虑、完全的
50:44
fascination, like, you know, like you're saying, Caitlin, sort of admiring and John too, like
着迷，就像，你知道的，就像你说的，Caitlin，有点佩服，John也是，就像
50:50
admiration at what's happening there, but also just feeling this sense of roller coaster ride
对正在发生的事情的钦佩，但同时也只是感觉这种过山车般的体验
50:57
is almost too cliche. It's just like, I was worried it was going to fall off a cliff at any moment.
几乎是太老套了。就是那种，我担心它随时会从悬崖上掉下去。
51:02
And it kind of does, but it cut, you know, in this kind of this way where you're like, I guess I'm
它确实有点这样，但它切断了，你知道，以这种方式，让你觉得，我猜我
51:05
going off the cliff. I guess I'm going off the cliff with you guys. So yeah, it was a, it was a,
掉下悬崖了。我想我要跟你们一起掉下悬崖了。所以是的，那是一个，那是一个，
51:10
it was a sort of exhilarating movie to watch in a funny way. It's just not something you often say
从某种有趣的角度来说，这是一部让人看得挺过瘾的电影。只是这不是你经常会说的话。
51:13
about three hour long documentaries, but it had this sort of adrenaline pumping aspect of
大约三小时长的纪录片，但它有那种让人肾上腺素飙升的感觉
51:21
not even mystery, but just like the, the strangeness of the encounter that kept circling around.
甚至都不是什么神秘感，而是那种，那种不断萦绕在周围的相遇的奇异感。
51:28
You, we also had like, we go in not just knowing Elizabeth Holmes at this point, but largely
你，我们当时进去的时候也不只是知道Elizabeth Holmes这个人了，但很大程度上
51:34
culturally knowing Nathan Fielder. Yeah. And so the other thing that's playing against is like
在文化上了解Nathan Fielder。是的。所以另一个不利因素是像
51:38
what your understanding is of what he makes and what he does. Yeah. And so I think like, again,
你对他的作品和他的所作所为的理解是什么。是的。所以我觉得，还是说，
51:43
like just how much are you? Like you were, you're describing basically being like in the shoot.
你有多投入？你基本上在描述自己像是在激流里。
51:48
Yeah. You know, and I'm just like very much like out of the shoot, holding onto the edges,
是的。你知道，我就像完全在激流之外，抓着边缘，
51:52
not going down the shoot. You know, like it's like there's, there's because I'm because I'm conscious
不往下冲。你知道，就像，因为我对这件事有意识，
51:56
of this thing. And yet I also really enjoyed it. Yeah, totally. Guys, this has been a fantastic
但同时我也真的很享受。是的，完全。各位，这是一次非常棒的
52:02
conversation. I feel like I need to go see the movie again with all of this in mind. John
对话。我觉得我需要带着这些想法再去把这部电影看一遍。John
52:08
and Caitlin are going to drop off now. We're going to go to break and Aaron's going to come back.
Caitlin要下线了。我们接下来休息一下，Aaron会回来。
52:12
We're going to talk about the spy from open AI plus a bunch of other news headlines from the week.
我们要聊聊OpenAI的那个间谍事件，还有本周的其他一些新闻头条。
52:17
John and Caitlin, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having us.
John和Caitlin，感谢你们来参加。谢谢邀请我们。
52:31
If your team wants a website that looks and feels handcrafted, but is still fast to ship,
如果你的团队想要一个看起来和感觉上都是手工打造的网站，但又能快速上线，
52:36
Framer is built exactly for that. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators,
Framer就是为此而生的。Framer是AI网站构建器，帮助创作者、
52:41
teams, and businesses, ship production ready sites faster than ever while getting every
团队和企业比以往更快地交付生产就绪的网站，同时让每一个
52:46
detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace.
细节到位。Prompt、检查、编辑、发布，一站式完成，节奏全新。
52:51
Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for
了解如何通过 Framer 专家让你的网站发挥更大价值，或者开始动手构建
52:55
free today at framer.com slash hard fork for 30% off a Framer pro annual plan. Rules and restrictions
今天在 framer.com slash hard fork 免费获取 Framer pro 年度计划七折优惠。规则和限制
53:02
may apply. Hey, it's Tracy Mumford from The Headlines. Every morning, we comb through everything
可能适用。嘿，我是The Headlines的Tracy Mumford。每天早上，我们都会梳理所有内容
53:07
that times is covering and everything that's happening in the world, which can be a lot,
那时候是在报道各种事情和世界上发生的一切，那可能非常多，
53:12
and pull together a 10 minute update for you to start your day. It's breaking news, big
为你整理一份10分钟的更新，帮你开启新的一天。这是突发新闻，重大
53:17
investigations, and those, whoa, did you know about this? Stories, you won't find anywhere else.
调查报道，还有那些，哇，你知道这件事吗？那些你在其他地方找不到的故事。
53:22
Plus every Friday, see how you do on our news quiz. The headlines from The New York Times
另外每周五，来看看你在我们的新闻测验中表现如何。来自《纽约时报》的头条新闻
53:28
find at weekday mornings in the Times app or wherever you get your podcasts.
每个工作日早晨在Times app或你收听播客的任何地方都能找到。
53:34
Welcome back to hard fork. After a stimulating discussion about Elizabeth Holmes,
欢迎回到Hard Fork。在关于Elizabeth Holmes的一场令人兴奋的讨论之后，
53:39
I am back with our old friend Aaron Griffith to talk about the headlines of the week.
我和我们的老朋友Aaron Griffith回来聊聊本周的头条新闻。
53:45
Hi, the big story that we need to talk about more than anything is the alleged open AI spy.
嗨，我们最需要聊的大新闻是那个所谓的OpenAI间谍。
53:51
So the FBI arrested an open AI employee this week, and he was accused of planting a bug in the office.
所以FBI这周逮捕了一名OpenAI员工，他被指控在办公室里安装了一个窃听装置。
53:58
I think the main media that everybody needs to consume about this is the photograph allegedly
我觉得大家最需要关注的主要媒体报道，就是那张照片，据称
54:04
capturing this guy looking at the recording device, which he plugged into the back of a television.
拍到了这家伙正在看那个录音设备，他把它插在了电视机的背面。
54:10
I'll describe it for our listeners. And there's the accused by whose name is Abdul Rahman Al-Fazan.
我来给我们的听众描述一下。被指控的人名叫Abdul Rahman Al-Fazan。
54:16
He's a 35 year old from Saudi Arabia. I don't know how would you describe it. He almost looks
他是一名来自沙特阿拉伯的35岁男子。我不知道你们会怎么形容。他看起来几乎
54:21
like he's sort of a movie monster pose. It looks like he looks like a cartoon villain that just got
像是在摆一个电影怪物的姿势。看起来他就像一个刚刚被
54:26
gutt punched. Yes, exactly. I mean, this is really like whenever I have to unplug stuff from the back
gutt punched。对，完全没错。我是说，这真的就像每次我得从后面拔东西的时候
54:31
of my TV. I feel very glad that nobody's taking any photos for me because I assume I have this kind
of my TV. 我很高兴没人在给我拍照，因为我猜我有这种
54:35
of pain. Well, this is the question I have is like, do they have a camera back there? Or is
痛苦。嗯，我的问题是，他们后面有摄像头吗？还是
54:41
I mean, that's not taken by the security device. Is it like it was just a recording device?
我的意思是，那个不是被安全设备拍到的吧？它是不是就只是个录音设备？
54:45
So, so how did they capture that photo? Well, so open AI says they made the announcement on their
那么，那么他们是怎么拍到那张照片的？嗯，OpenAI说他们是在他们的
54:51
Twitter feed at the same time as the FBI was talking about it. And they said, and this is to me,
Twitter feed at the same time as the FBI was talking about it. And they said, and this is to me,
54:54
this is like an extremely open AI statement. We discovered a sophisticated recording device that
这就像一个极其开放的AI声明。我们发现了一个精密的录音设备，它
54:59
was hidden inside one of our offices. We used our models to understand the device and where it had
它被藏在我们其中一个办公室里。我们用我们的模型来理解这个设备以及它
55:04
come from, identifying that a specific employee had planted it a few days earlier. Yeah, they used
来自，确认是一名特定员工几天前植入的。是的，他们用了
55:09
chat to you to discover the thing or whatever. Always be marketing your model. It's like really,
跟你聊天来发现东西或者随便什么。永远要推销你的模型。这就像是，真的，
55:15
it's like no wonder everybody accuses everything they do of marketing because everything they do
就像难怪大家都指责他们做的一切都是营销，因为他们做的一切
55:18
is marketing. I was I mean, so one thing that's interesting about this, I think we're presuming that
是营销。我是说，关于这一点有一件有趣的事，我觉得我们在假设
55:23
he was spying on behalf of the Saudi Arabian government, which also we will remember allegedly
他当时是在为沙特阿拉伯政府从事间谍活动，我们还记得据称
55:28
planted a spy in Twitter or in X. Not a legend. That was that that one fully went to trial.
沙特政府还在Twitter或X里安插了一名间谍。不是传说。那个案子是完全进入了审判的。
55:33
Yes, okay. It was convicted. We can just say happened. Yeah. This seems to have been so the
是的，没错。他被定罪了。我们可以直接说这事确实发生了。是的。这看起来是——所以那个
55:37
Twitter one, my memory is that there was some of it was about spying on dissidents who were organized.
Twitter的案子，我的记忆是其中一部分是关于监视那些组织起来的异见人士。
55:41
It was on masking anonymous dissident Twitter accounts. Yeah, that's right. That's what the person
是关于揭开匿名异见人士Twitter账号的身份。是的，没错。那就是那个人
55:46
was trying to do. This seems more about bugging meetings, like high-level meetings. Yeah, no. Yeah,
试图做的事情。这个看起来更多是关于在会议里装窃听器，像是高层会议。是的，不是。是的，
55:51
that's true. I mean, I actually would love to hear even more details about what they think this
这是真的。我的意思是，我其实很想听到更多关于他们认为这个的细节。
55:57
person was trying to get. I mean, we don't we don't know a lot about that yet. I have to say to
那个人想得到的。我是说，我们对那方面还了解得不多。我得说
56:03
like this guy is obviously not like a top tier spy if he's just plugging stuff in the back of
比如这家伙显然不是什么顶级间谍，如果他就这么直接把东西插在后面
56:09
the TV and getting caught that easily. It does make you wonder if there are other spies inside
看电视还那么容易被抓到。这确实让人怀疑里面是不是还有其他间谍
56:15
any of the labs. I mean, surely every government on the planet would love to have one inside some
任何一个实验室。我是说，地球上每个政府肯定都想在里面安一个
56:18
of these places. Yeah. And I mean, this person has at least a long track record of working in tech.
这些地方之一。是的。而且我是说，这个人至少在科技行业有很长的从业记录。
56:26
I mean, I'm not sure how real that is, but people are reporting on their LinkedIn that he was at
我的意思是，我不确定那有多真实，但人们在LinkedIn上报告说他在
56:30
meta and he was at various startups before. So either he's been playing a very long game,
他在meta工作过，之前也在多家创业公司待过。所以要么他一直在下一盘很大的棋，
56:36
he's been spying for a very long time, or he just got converted, which given how easily he was caught
他要么已经潜伏了很长时间，要么就是刚被策反的，考虑到他这么容易被抓到
56:43
might be the answer. Sometimes I'm surprised we don't see more stories like this, because it seems
可能是答案。有时候我很惊讶我们没有看到更多这样的故事，因为似乎
56:48
really clear to me that all the action in Spain on these days has to be trying to insert people
我很清楚，这些天在西班牙的所有行动都必须是试图把人安插进去
56:54
into huge multinational corporations with really valuable intellectual property. I remember this
变成拥有真正有价值的知识产权的大型跨国公司。我记得这个
56:59
was a really big issue during COVID when everyone went fully remote for the first time, because you're
在COVID期间，当所有人第一次完全远程办公时，这确实是个很大的问题，因为你
57:03
hiring all these people that you never meet. And then, you know, there's all these stories about
招了这么多你从来没见过的人。然后，你知道，有这么多关于
57:07
people having two jobs. And like, that was the big thing, but there's also kind of a little like
人们打两份工。而且这曾是个大事，但也有点像
57:11
unspoken thing of like, what if our employees aren't real? I'm learning so much about about how
像那种没说出口的事，万一我们的员工不是真的呢？我学到了很多关于怎么
57:15
spying works here. Apparently, the bar is pretty low. Clearly, maybe that's maybe when journalism
spying在这里行得通。显然，门槛相当低。很明显，也许那可能是新闻业的时候
57:20
finally collapses there. And this is something that you and I can get into. Delete that please.
最后在那里崩溃了。而这是你和我可以深入探讨的事情。请把那个删掉。
57:25
Also in AI news, we should talk about character AI, which recently declared bankruptcy character AI,
同样在AI新闻方面，我们应该聊聊Character AI，它最近宣布破产了，Character AI，
57:31
you will remember our audience will remember was a sort of chat pop platform where you could create
你们会记得，我们的听众会记得，它曾是一个聊天弹窗平台，你可以创建
57:36
characters that you would interact with. You know, I mostly understood it as a source of very funny
角色并与之互动。你知道，我主要把它理解为一种来源，能看到非常搞笑的
57:41
like screenshots that I would see posted on Twitter, but also it later became quite controversial.
截图被发到Twitter上，但它后来也变得相当有争议。
57:47
It faced a number of lawsuits from states and individuals. There's suggestions that
它面临了来自各州和个人的多起诉讼。有人指出
57:50
it pushed its users into suicide, self harm. It filed for bankruptcy earlier this week. And it
它迫使用户自杀、自残。它本周早些时候申请了破产。而且它
57:57
is selling some of its assets to Walt Disney. It's claiming lack of profitability. Despite having
正在把部分资产出售给Walt Disney。它声称缺乏盈利能力。尽管拥有
58:04
roughly 12 million active users, this is from a Reuters article due to the high cost of computing
大约1200万活跃用户，这来自一篇Reuters的文章，原因是计算成本很高
58:08
power and employing AI talent. What did you make of this? Well, I mean, I've actually been kind of
power和雇佣AI人才。你怎么看这件事？嗯，我的意思是，我其实一直有点
58:15
wondering what's going to happen for a while to all the kind of like leftover
想知道接下来一段时间里，那些剩下的东西会怎么样
58:21
nubs of these AI companies that did aqua hire deals with big tech companies. And this kind of
这些AI公司的小团队，它们跟大型科技公司做了aqua hire交易。还有这种
58:28
hasn't been reported in some of the stories I've seen are not as prominently. And for some reason,
在我看到的一些报道中，这一点并没有被报道得那么突出。而且不知为何，
58:33
I'm obsessed with this. But if you recall, character AI was started by these two Google guys,
我对这个特别着迷。但如果你还记得，Character AI 是这两个谷歌的人创办的，
58:40
Noam Shazir and Daniela DeFrytus. And they left Google because Google's moving too slow.
Noam Shazir 和 Daniela DeFrytus。他们离开谷歌是因为谷歌行动太慢了。
58:45
Google's like, we need them back. But for anti-trust reasons, we're not really sure about making
谷歌就说，我们需要他们回来。但因为反垄断的原因，我们不太确定要不要做
58:50
a big acquisition. And they won a lot of money. So they did this like backward deal where they
一个大收购。而且他们拿到了很多钱。所以他们做了一个有点像反向的交易，就是
58:56
hired character AI, like they hired back Shazir and they hired back the founders. They hired back
他们雇回了 Character AI，就是他们雇回了 Shazir，雇回了创始人。他们雇回了
59:03
like 20% of the employees. As part of it, they have to leave this like kind of sad leftover
大概 20% 的员工。作为交易的一部分，他们得离开这个有点惨的剩余部分
59:09
company behind that no longer has its founders is probably not going to really raise any more money.
那家创始人已经不在的公司，估计不会再融到更多钱了。
59:15
It doesn't have the momentum or excitement. The most valuable employees are gone. And I've been
它没有那种势头或兴奋感了。最有价值的员工都走了。而且我一直
59:22
wondering, okay, well, what's going to happen to all these old companies? A couple of them have
想知道，好吧，那么，所有这些老牌公司会怎么样呢？其中有几家已经
59:25
already sold. Character AI is notable in particular because they've had just a barrage of lawsuits
已经卖掉了。Character AI尤其值得注意，因为他们遭遇了一连串的诉讼
59:32
against them over their product because there are, you know, harms that have happened. There are
against them over their product because there are, you know, harms that have happened. There are
59:37
users who have died by suicide. There are people who, you know, are suing them because their
那些自杀身亡的用户。有些人，你知道，正在起诉他们，因为他们的
59:43
chatbots have been posing as doctors. They've been telling people to starve themselves or kill
聊天机器人一直在冒充医生。它们一直让人们饿着自己或者去死
59:48
them. So it's like, you know, there's some gnarly stuff happening with the product. So part of
他们。所以就像是，你知道，产品那边发生了一些棘手的事情。所以一部分
59:52
the bankruptcy is just the wipe the slate clean and deal with that. But I sort of see it as a result
破产只是把一切清零重新开始处理而已。但我有点把它看作是一个结果
59:59
of this like extremely weird moment that we had in 2024 of talent wars where all the big tech
比如我们在2024年经历的这个非常奇怪的时刻，人才争夺战，所有的大科技公司
60:06
companies tried to buy up all the like most valuable founders are actually buying the companies.
公司们试图把所有的都买下来，就像最有价值的创始人实际上是在收购这些公司。
60:11
Yeah. And, you know, all these sort of, it's the talent wars means that a lot of the top people
对。而且你知道，所有这些，这种人才争夺战意味着很多顶尖的人
60:16
at these little, I think you called them nubs, which I enjoy as a sort of viscerally unpleasant
在这些小东西上，我想你称它们为nubs，我挺喜欢的，有种生理上不适的感觉
60:21
way of thinking about them like disappear and also like their reasons for existing seem sort of
关于它们的思考方式像是消失了，而且它们存在的理由似乎有点
60:25
increasingly, you don't need a specialized, you know, chatbot or whatever. Yeah. And this was
越来越不需要专门的，你知道，chatbot或者别的什么了。是的。而这是
60:32
one of the most promising AI companies that was developing the kind of like core LLM technology
最有前途的AI公司之一，正在开发那种核心LLM技术
60:39
because they had this guy, no, I'm Shazir, who's like, you know, a very, very prominent
因为他们有这个人，不，我是Shazir，他就像是，你知道的，一个非常非常杰出的
60:44
researcher in this very small field. And, you know, basically all of these companies that were
这个非常小的领域里的研究者。而且，你知道，基本上所有这些公司当时都
60:50
in this kind of class have gotten kind of picked off during the talent wars. Yeah.
在这种竞争里，这类人已经在人才争夺战中被挖走了。是的。
60:56
The other thing I want to talk to you about is Apple's new device, the home view for which
另外我还想跟你聊的是苹果的新设备，那个home view
61:02
a advertisement appeared this week. I don't know how to describe this product except as they took
这周出现了一则广告。我不知道该怎么描述这个产品，只能说他们把
61:09
the kitchen iPad and they just turned it into like its own device, basically. They like productized
厨房里的iPad，他们基本上把它变成了一个独立的设备。他们把它产品化了
61:15
kitchen iPad. You can't, you can't take the iPad off of the stand. Right, exactly. It has to live
厨房里的iPad。你不能，你不能把iPad从支架上拿下来。对，没错。它必须待在那儿
61:20
there. So it's like this little dome, it looks a little bit like, you know, listeners who are about
在那里。所以它就像这个小圆顶，看起来有点像，你知道，那些听众们大概
61:25
my age will remember the like those I max with the with the rotatable arm that were on top of
我那个年代的人会记得那些iMac，带可旋转手臂的那种，在
61:30
the little dome. It's like a little dome. Oh, I had one of those. Yeah, I had one too. Exactly.
小圆顶上面的。就像一个小圆顶。哦，我有过一台。是啊，我也有一台。没错。
61:34
I actually pulled it out of my parents closet recently and found that it didn't turn on. So
我最近 actually 从父母衣柜里翻出来了，发现它开不了机了。所以
61:38
that's a pretty uninteresting story. This, this home, the home view is sort of similar. It's like
这是个挺无聊的故事。这个，这个home，home view有点像。它就像
61:44
a little dome. It's got basically a slightly smaller than iPad size screen on it. And it has,
一个小圆顶。上面有一块 basically 比iPad略小一点的屏幕。而且它
61:51
you know, you can receive text messages on it. You can set your calendar. You can ask
有，你知道，你可以在上面收短信。你可以设日历。你可以问
61:55
Siri anything. It's somewhere between an iPad and a home pod, always on, always listening.
Siri之类的。它介于iPad和HomePod之间，一直开着，一直在听。
62:01
I mean, I have to ask you like, would you ever put one of these in your house?
我是说，我得问你，你会把这种东西放在家里吗？
62:07
I'm the worst person to ask on this kind of thing. I'm sort of a late adopter. I have currently in
在这类事情上我是最不适合问的人。我算是比较晚才接受新事物的人。我目前厨房里
62:12
my kitchen. I have an Amazon Echo from I think 2014 that is mostly a glorified timer.
有一个Amazon Echo，我记得是2014年的，基本上就是个高级计时器。
62:21
And occasionally plays songs. But I mean, I don't want another, I don't really need a screen
偶尔放放歌。但我是说，我不想要再多一个，我那个小厨房里真的不需要一块屏幕。
62:28
in my very tiny kitchen. So I'm not sure that I saw wire describe it as like a giant apple watch
所以我不确定，我看到Wire把它描述得像个巨大的Apple Watch
62:33
for the home. And I don't have an apple watch. It's really selling it there. That's a great,
for the home。而且我没有 apple watch。这真的很能推销它。那太好了，
62:37
yeah. That one's for the box needs one. I did. I will say though, like I can see the value
yeah。那个是给 box 需要的那个。我做了。不过我得说，我能看到它的价值
62:45
and the appeal. Like I watched this ad, which as I was telling you, it kind of the ad for it.
和吸引力。就像我看了这个广告，正如我跟你说的，它的那个广告。
62:50
Kind of reminds me a little bit of like the bear, like the vibe of the bear, but set to like that
让我有点想起 like the bear，like the bear 的那种氛围，但配上了 like 那首
62:57
Peter, Björn and John's song. Back up, we're late. Come on here. Come on, breathe. So good.
Peter, Björn and John 的歌。Back up, we're late. Come on here. Come on, breathe. So good.
63:07
Who is that? That's Aza. Who's Aza? He's a person. It's like a family getting ready before
那是谁？那是 Aza。Aza 是谁？他是一个人。就像一家人正准备
63:15
school. And it's like super stressful and chaotic. But instead of like this is like thumping
学校。而且超级有压力又混乱。但不像这样，这像是在砰砰作响
63:19
drum beat. It's like happy fun music. And that's because they have the Apple home view, which they
鼓点。就像欢快的音乐。那是因为他们有Apple home view，他们
63:24
can, you know, it's like kind of like another member of the family that they're all interacting
你知道，它就像是家里的另一个成员，他们都在跟它互动
63:28
with. And like in my ideal version of the world, like yes, I can see that like mornings are chaotic
with。而且就像在我理想的世界里，是的，我能看到早晨是混乱的
63:34
for families, for sure. But I don't need like yet another person or another entity to be involved
对家庭来说，肯定的。但我不需要再牵扯另一个人或另一个实体进来
63:39
with. Yeah, it had the real Apple marketing materials feel where they like invented a bunch of
对。是的，它真的有那种苹果营销材料的质感，就是他们编了一堆
63:44
problems that can be solved by the, by the, by the new Apple device that that when you watch
可以被这个、被这个、被这个新的Apple设备解决的问题，那个、那个当你观看的时候
63:49
the video, you're sort of like, I mean, got like there's so much better at marketing than basically
这个视频，你有点像是，我是说，就是有太多在营销方面比基本上
63:52
in a tech company because they seem to be the only one that we're like normal people work in the
在一家科技公司，因为他们似乎是唯一一个我们觉得像普通人一样工作的地方
63:56
marketing department. And they're like, oh, it was compelling. Yeah, they're like, let's make a fun
市场部。然后他们说，哦，这个很有说服力。对，他们说，我们来做点有趣的
64:00
loving like messy family sort of sitcomgy messy family. And you're like, yeah, I totally need this.
爱得像个乱糟糟的家庭，那种情景喜剧式的乱糟糟家庭。然后你就想，对，我完全需要这个。
64:05
And then I'm thinking, well, no, I don't need it for any of the single use cases that they've
然后我就想，不对，他们提到的那些单一使用场景，我都不需要它
64:09
described. And if I did have one of my kitchen, I think I would probably just end up watching
描述过了。如果我确实有一个厨房的，我想我大概最后就只是看着
64:13
TV on it because like it's a screen and that sort of, that's sort of what you do on screens.
电视开着是因为它是个屏幕，而在屏幕上你大概就是做这种事。
64:17
So I'll be very interested to see if this, if this gets any kind of adoption. I mean, I will say,
所以我会非常感兴趣看看这个，这个能不能获得某种程度的采用。我的意思是，我得说，
64:21
I did a story a couple of years ago about like couples and families using tech to like manage their
几年前我做过一个报道，讲的是情侣和家庭用科技来管理他们的
64:27
their day-to-day lives. And I kind of went into it like thinking it would be a little bit poking fun.
他们的日常生活。我做这个的时候，本来是想着稍微调侃一下。
64:31
Like, oh, these couples are using notion and slack to like, you know, all these like tech tools to
比如，哦，这些情侣在用notion和slack来，你知道，所有这些科技工具来
64:37
basically like just do the stuff that families just basic communication and like they're managing
基本上就是做那些家庭基本沟通之类的事情，他们就是在管理
64:43
their lives like their product managers. But then when I started talking to more and more families,
他们的生活就像他们的产品经理一样。但后来当我开始和越来越多的家庭交谈时，
64:46
I was like, oh, your lives are so complicated that I completely understand why you need like a
我当时就想，哦，你们的生活太复杂了，我完全理解为什么你们需要一个
64:53
technological household manager to anything that can like simplify things and offload the mental
从技术型的家庭管理者，到任何能简化事情、减轻心理负担的东西
64:58
load for you. I totally get it. And there are companies that are doing well that sell these like
为你加载。我完全理解。而且有些公司做得很好，他们卖这些就像
65:03
kind of different screens that are kind of family-friendly that you can have. And Apple's probably
那种比较适合家庭使用的不同屏幕。而苹果可能
65:07
now just going to put them out of business unfortunately. But yeah, I can see where there's an
现在只是要把他们挤出市场，不幸的是。但没错，我能看出这里有一个
65:14
appeal for this specific use case. I mean, what I really need, so Gus is my son is in first grade
appeal for this specific use case. 我是说，我真正需要的，Gus是我儿子，他上一年级
65:18
and there's like seven different apps across his camps and schools and like I get texts and I get
而且他的营地和学校那边大概有七个不同的app，然后我会收到短信，我也会收到
65:24
emails and I need to, I need Apple to find out a way to like receive all of that and just give it
我需要，我需要Apple找到一种方式，能接收所有这些内容然后直接给我
65:31
to me in like one simple, easy format. And I know people are going to write in and be like,
对我来说，就用一种简单、容易的格式。我知道人们会写信进来说，
65:34
just get an agent to do that. I don't want an agent. I just want somebody else to do it for me,
就让一个agent去做吧。我不想要agent。我只想让别人帮我做了就行，
65:38
please. And that is when I will buy the Apple, I'm sorry, keep forgetting the name Home View,
拜托。那就是我会买Apple的时候，抱歉，我总是记不住那个名字Home View，
65:45
the Apple. Yeah, well, I mean, I was going to say you beat me too. I was going to say just get an
Apple。对，好吧，我是说，我本来也想说你先说了。我本来想说直接找个
65:51
agent for that. But I mean, I did see a bunch of people sharing that anthropic is hiring,
agent来做那个就行了。但我是说，我确实看到一堆人在分享Anthropic在招人，
65:59
you know, an assistant. They had a jobless thing that listed out all of these
你知道的，招一个助理。他们有个招聘启事列出了一大堆
66:05
duties that are exactly what an AI agent is supposed to do like scheduling meetings. And, you know,
职责，完全就是AI agent应该做的事，比如安排会议。而且，你知道的，
66:10
just like, kind of the one on one stuff that like agents all claim that they're going to
就是那种一对一的活儿，就是那些agents都声称自己要做的
66:15
to sell for us. And so everyone's like, there's one last thing I want to talk to you about this week,
帮我们卖。所以大家都觉得，这周我还有最后一件事想跟你们聊，
66:19
which is this interview with the Palantir CTO where he claims so many AI researchers have started
就是这篇对Palantir CTO的采访，他声称很多AI研究人员开始
66:26
smoking as a way of signaling to other researchers how much they believe in AI.
抽烟，以此向其他研究人员表明他们有多相信AI。
66:32
Incredible. Incredible. I mean, when I first saw the headline, I have to say I actually thought
太离谱了。太离谱了。我是说，我刚看到这个标题的时候，我得说我真的以为
66:37
that they were taking up smoking because they have like a high p-dume. And it's like left over.
他们开始抽烟是因为他们有个很高的p-dume。然后它就像残留下来的一样。
66:42
It's like the leftovers. Like if you saw that show where like they're nihilist,
就像剩饭剩菜一样。就像如果你看过那个剧，里面那些人都是虚无主义者，
66:46
who are going to just start hanging out with Liv Tyler and wearing white and like because nothing
那些打算就这么开始和Liv Tyler一起玩、穿白色衣服、然后因为什么都不用做的人
66:50
matters. But it's the opposite. Yeah. As it turns out, the reason is that they think that AI
这很重要。但情况恰恰相反。是的。事实证明，原因是他们认为AI
66:57
is going to cure cancer. So smoking is a way to show how much you believe that AI will cure.
会治愈癌症。所以抽烟是一种方式，来展示你有多相信AI会治愈癌症。
67:02
So if you get cancer, it's like no big deal because it's very funny. It has to be the least
所以如果你得了癌症，就像没什么大不了的，因为这很好笑。这必须是最不
67:07
cool reason to smoke cigarettes. I can possibly imagine. Like this is one of the classically
吸烟的一个很酷的理由。我倒是能想象得到。就像这是那些经典的
67:12
cool things to do smoking cigarettes. There's so many cool reasons to do it like nihilism like,
抽烟有很多很酷的理由。有太多很酷的理由去做这件事，比如虚无主义，比如，
67:17
because you know, you look good to meet people all this stuff. Because you want to signal to
因为你知道，你去见人的时候形象好，所有这些。因为你想向
67:21
other AI researchers that you think AI is going to cure cancer soon. It's like it negates all
其他AI研究者，你觉得AI很快就能治愈癌症。这就像它否定了所有
67:26
the coolness, all the cool points you get from smoking is to get outside. You completely lose from
抽烟带来的酷感，所有那些酷炫加分，都是为了能到外面去。你完全失去了
67:31
this. Yeah. Like you meet a woman outside a bar and then you start like you know,
这个。对。就像你在酒吧外面遇到一个女人，然后你就开始，你知道的，
67:35
explaining the way that like AI is just blocked away. I actually don't need a light anymore. I'm
解释一下AI是怎么被挡在外面的。其实我已经不需要灯了。我
67:41
flying. Thank you. I'm good. This has been the cigarette portion of our tech talk show.
飞起来了。谢谢。我很好。这就是我们科技脱口秀的抽烟环节。
67:49
Aaron, thank you for joining me again this week to talk through all of these things.
Aaron，谢谢你这周再次来和我一起聊这些事情。
67:54
You can catch Aaron on Open AI Security footage trying to plug things into the back of the TV.
你可以在Open AI Security的监控录像里看到Aaron试图往电视后面插东西。
67:59
She's also she wrote a great piece this week that I hope will get a chance to talk to about AI
她这周还写了一篇很棒的文章，我希望有机会聊聊关于AI
68:04
agent dinner parties that you can read in the New York Times app. I don't know. Yeah, thanks for
agent晚宴派对的事，你可以在New York Times app里读到。我不确定。对，谢谢
68:08
a plug. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank that's thank our audience. Thank you guys for listening.
帮忙宣传。对。嗯，谢谢。谢谢我们的听众。谢谢你们收听。
68:13
It's been another great week on hard for it. If your team wants a website that looks and feels
Hard Fork又度过了精彩的一周。如果你的团队想要一个看起来和感觉起来
68:26
handcrafted but is still fast to ship, Framer is built exactly for that. Framer is the AI website
手工打造但仍然能快速交付，Framer正是为此而生。Framer是那个AI网站
68:33
builder that helps creators teams and businesses ship production ready sites faster than ever
一个帮助创作者、团队和企业比以往更快地交付生产就绪网站的构建工具
68:38
while getting every detail right prompt inspect edit and publish in one place at a whole new pace.
在把每个细节都做对的同时，prompt、inspect、edit 和 publish 全都在一个地方完成，节奏焕然一新。
68:44
Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building
了解如何通过Framer专家让你的网站发挥更大价值，或者直接开始搭建
68:48
for free today at framer.com slash hard fork for 30% off a Framer pro annual plan rules and
今天在 framer.com 斜杠 hard fork 免费获取，Framer 专业年度计划享受 30% 折扣，规则和
68:54
restrictions may apply. We love to hear from our audience. If you have any questions or comments
可能有限制条件。我们很乐意听到观众的反馈。如果你有任何问题或意见
69:00
or want to give us a piece of your mind, you can find us at nytimes.com slash hard fork and you can
或者想给我们提点意见，可以到 nytimes.com 斜杠 hard fork 找我们，你也可以
69:04
jump into the comments there. You can also email us at hard fork at nytimes.com. This episode of
跳到那里的评论区。你也可以给我们发邮件到 hard fork at nytimes.com。这一集
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hard fork was produced by Whitney Jones and edited by veerin povich. With additional editorial
hard fork 由 Whitney Jones 制作，veerin povich 编辑。另有编辑
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support from branded and clinkinburg, Lisa Tobin, and Brook Mentors. We were fact checked by Will
来自branded和clinkinburg的支持，Lisa Tobin，以及Brook Mentors。我们的事实核查由Will完成
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Peishel and engineered by Chris Wood, original music by Diane Wong, Rowan Nemistow, and Dan Powell.
由Chris Wood制作和设计，原创音乐由Diane Wong、Rowan Nemistow和Dan Powell创作。
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Video production by Sawyer Roké, Jake Nickel, and Chris Schott. You can watch this full episode
视频制作：Sawyer Roké、Jake Nickel 和 Chris Schott。你可以观看完整集
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on youtube at youtube.com slash hard for. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Jessica Testa,
在YouTube上，网址是youtube.com slash hard for。特别感谢Sam Dolnick、Jessica Testa、
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Poo Wing Tam, Maddie Masiello, Nick Pitman, Bernard Garcia, Michael Cordero, and Dahlia Haddad.
Poo Wing Tam、Maddie Masiello、Nick Pitman、Bernard Garcia、Michael Cordero和Dahlia Haddad。