Hard Fork
The Jensen Huang Affair
00:0000:30:47
00:01
Running a business means keeping pace with the latest tech.
经营企业意味着要跟上最新科技。
00:04
You put a lot into building your enterprise software stack
你在构建 enterprise software stack 上投入了很多
00:07
and scrapping it to integrate AI is out of the question.
而为了集成 AI 就把它废弃，这根本不可能。
00:11
That's why IBM technology works with all the apps, data, and models unique.
这就是为什么 IBM technology 能适配所有独特的 apps、data 和 models。
00:17
It's another way IBM helps you build on the technology you rely on.
这是 IBM 帮助你基于所依赖的技术继续构建的另一种方式。
00:21
Let's create smarter business.
让我们打造更智能的企业。
00:23
IBM, visit IBM.com to learn more.
IBM，访问 IBM.com 了解更多。
00:31
In all my years on the computer,
在我用电脑的这么多年里，
00:33
I never thought I'd see graphics cards and international sex scandal in the same story.
我从没想过会在同一个故事里看到显卡和国际性丑闻。
00:39
But this week, the Times broke the news that Jensen Wong,
但这个星期，Times 爆料称，Jensen Wong，
00:42
the CEO of the chipmaker Invidia,
芯片制造商 Invidia 的 CEO，
00:44
and one of the most important figures in AI and tech,
也是 AI 和科技领域最重要的人物之一，
00:47
has been having an affair with a top executive at a Singaporean data center company,
一直和一家新加坡 data center 公司的高管有婚外情，
00:52
who also happens to be an alleged Chinese spy,
而这个人又恰好被指是中国间谍，
00:55
and whose company was reportedly illegally funneling advanced Invidia chips to Chinese companies.
而且据报道，此人的公司还在非法把先进的 Invidia 芯片输送给中国公司。
01:01
Wong remains in place atop Invidia,
Wong 仍留任 Invidia 最高职位，
01:02
which is launching its own internal investigation.
它正在启动自己的内部调查。
01:05
And the new Democratic Congress could follow with one of their own,
而新的民主党国会也可能跟进，发起自己的调查，
01:08
especially since President Trump has apparently been aware of the allegations
尤其是因为 President Trump 显然已经知道这些指控
01:12
and unwilling to intervene for a year.
而且一年来都不愿意介入。
01:15
Look, I love a spy story,
听着，我很喜欢间谍故事，
01:16
and I won't pretend that the sex scandal part of the story isn't a huge draw for me here.
而且我不会假装这个故事里的性丑闻部分对我来说不是一大吸引力。
01:21
But I'm also fascinated that this lurid tale of international intrigue
但我也很着迷，这个关于国际阴谋的耸动故事
01:25
is all about graphics card trade policy.
居然全是关于 graphics card 贸易政策的。
01:28
The fact is, this is the quintessential 21st century spy story.
事实是，这是一个教科书般的21世纪间谍故事。
01:31
We're not talking about troop movements,
我们说的不是部队调动，
01:33
no one stealing top secret microfilm,
也不是有人在偷绝密微缩胶片，
01:35
Jensen Wong wears a leather jacket, not a tuxedo.
Jensen Wong 穿的是皮夹克，不是燕尾服。
01:38
But we have instead as a tale of executive hubris,
但我们看到的反而是一个关于高管狂妄自大、
01:41
Chinese holding companies, export controls,
中国控股公司、export controls、
01:43
and of course a race to create the world's most powerful and important technology.
当然还有一场打造世界上最强大、最重要技术的竞赛。
01:47
And because this is such a rich and fascinating intersection of our interests,
而正因为这是我们兴趣所在的一个如此丰富又迷人的交汇点，
01:51
we had to talk about it as soon as possible.
我们得尽快聊聊这件事。
01:53
Today, on what we're calling an emergency episode,
今天，在我们所谓的“紧急一期”里，
01:56
I'm joined by technology journalist Stephen Whitt,
和我一起的是科技记者 Stephen Whitt，
01:58
who literally wrote the book on Jensen Wong and Nvidia
他真写过关于 Jensen Wong 和 Nvidia 的书，
02:01
to talk about these revelations.
来聊聊这些新曝光的内情。
02:03
How did someone so powerful become an international espionage target
一个如此有权势的人，怎么就成了国际间谍活动的目标，
02:06
and fall for it?
还中了招？
02:07
Why did it take so long for this story to come out and who leaked it?
为什么这件事这么久才曝光，又是谁泄露的？
02:11
How much of what Wong has been saying as a leader of the tech industry
Wong 作为科技行业领袖一直在说的那些话，
02:14
is now going to be called into question?
现在有多少会受到质疑？
02:16
And is it possible that this story is dramatic enough
而且，有没有可能这件事的戏剧性足够强，
02:18
that it could pop the bubble we're also worried about?
强到能戳破我们也在担心的那个泡沫？
02:21
I'm Max Reed.
我是 Max Reed。
02:22
This is HardFork.
这里是 HardFork。
02:31
Your team is on a deadline,
你的团队正赶着截止日期，
02:33
but moving all your enterprise data
却要迁移你们所有的 enterprise data
02:35
will take time your business simply doesn't have.
这会耗费你的企业根本耗不起的时间。
02:38
IBM technology lets AI work with your data where it already lives,
IBM 技术让 AI 能在你的数据原本所在的地方直接处理这些数据，
02:43
with an open hybrid cloud approach designed to build on your existing investments.
采用开放的 hybrid cloud 方案，旨在在你现有投资的基础上继续构建。
02:48
It's another way IBM helps you put your data to work.
这是 IBM 帮助你让数据发挥作用的又一种方式。
02:51
Let's create smarter business.
让我们一起打造更智能的业务。
02:53
IBM.
IBM。
02:55
Visit IBM.com to learn more.
访问 IBM.com 了解更多。
02:57
This podcast is supported by Google.
本播客由 Google 赞助。
03:03
Ever notice how it conferences,
有没有发现，一到各种会议上，每家公司的 AI 战略听起来都像是稳赢的全垒打？
03:04
every company's AI strategy sounds like a home run?
但关起门来，聊的完全是另一回事。
03:08
Behind closed doors, it's a very different conversation.
我是 Google 的 Josh Spaniard，也是 Frontier CMO 播客的主持人。
03:11
I'm Josh Spaniard from Google,
每周我都会和 Unilever、LiquidDeath、AT&T 等品牌的高管坐下来聊，哪些押注真的得到了回报。
03:13
host of the Frontier CMO podcast.
03:15
Each week I sit down with leaders from brands like Unilever,
03:18
LiquidDeath and AT&T
03:20
to talk about which bets paid off
03:22
and which pilots quietly died,
以及哪些试点项目悄无声息地死掉了，
03:24
or with the mics on.
或者是在麦克风还开着的时候。
03:27
Search Frontier CMO on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
在 YouTube 或任何你听播客的平台搜索 Frontier CMO。
03:31
Your business is built for something bigger.
你的企业是为更远大的目标而打造的。
03:34
That's why FM brings together engineering expertise.
这就是为什么 FM 汇聚工程专长。
03:37
AI powered by FM collected data
由 FM 收集的数据驱动的 AI
03:40
and trusted partnership to help you reduce risk before disruption.
以及值得信赖的合作伙伴关系，帮助你在 disruption 发生前降低风险。
03:45
FM helps protect what makes your business possible
FM 帮助守护让你的企业得以运转的一切。
03:48
so you can focus on what matters most
这样你就能把精力放在最重要的事情上
03:51
and progress with confidence.
并且满怀信心地向前推进。
03:53
FM, protect your purpose.
FM，守护你的使命。
03:58
Visit FM.com forward slash protect your purpose.
访问 FM.com 斜杠 protect your purpose。
04:03
Joining me from a hotel room in Singapore is Steven Whitt,
从新加坡的一家酒店房间里和我连线的是 Steven Whitt，
04:06
author of last year's book, The Thinking Machine,
去年那本书《The Thinking Machine》的作者，
04:09
a biography of Jensen Wong in NVIDIA.
一本关于 NVIDIA 的 Jensen Wong 的传记。
04:11
And he's going to help me try to wrap my head around this.
他会帮我试着把这件事弄明白。
04:13
Welcome to Hardforce, Steven.
欢迎来到 Hardforce，Steven。
04:14
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你邀请我。
04:15
Of course, what of your last 24 or 48 hours
当然，随着这件事不断发酵，你过去这 24 或 48 小时都是怎么过的？
04:18
been like as this story has been breaking?
我已经上了所有新闻频道的节目。
04:20
I've been on every news network.
我觉得世界上每个新闻频道都邀请我上节目了。
04:22
I think in the world has invited me on.
我现在不得不拒绝一些邀请，换作其他任何时候，我都会很享受、欣喜若狂地接受。
04:25
I'm having to decline invitations
04:27
that at any other time I would have been enjoyed overjoyed to catch.
04:32
It's 3.30 in the morning.
现在是凌晨3点30分。
04:34
And I'm just reporting.
我只是在做报道。
04:36
I mean, I'm still working.
我是说，我还在工作。
04:37
It's not.
不是这样的。
04:38
So what a story.
这可真是个好故事。
04:39
So it seems to me that there are sort of three big revelations
所以在我看来，大概有三个重大的新发现
04:42
in this unfolding story,
在这个逐渐展开的故事里，
04:43
at least things were revelations to me.
至少对我来说，这些事都算是新发现。
04:44
One is that Jensen Wong was having an affair
第一，Jensen Wong 与一名据称是中国间谍的人有婚外情。
04:46
with an alleged Chinese spy.
第二，他的婚外情对象所在的 Megaspeed 公司，涉嫌违反美国出口禁令，一直向中国输送 NVIDIA 芯片。
04:49
Two, that his affair partner's company, Megaspeed,
第三，还有一系列我们如今了解到的情况，涉及 Trump 政府对此知道多少，以及是否可能干预了商务部调查。
04:51
is suspected to have been funneling NVIDIA chips
04:54
to China in contravention of US export bands.
04:56
And then three, a sort of series of things
04:58
we've now learned about the Trump administration's knowledge of this
05:01
and possible intervention into commerce department investigations.
05:05
What I want to ask is how much of this was revelatory to you.
我想问的是，这些内容里有多少对你来说是让人有新发现的？
05:08
You know, you spent a lot of time reporting on
你知道，你花了很多时间做报道，
05:10
talking to thinking about Jensen Wong.
跟人聊、思考 Jensen Wong。
05:13
How much of it was surprising?
这其中有多少是让你意外的？
05:15
Well, everyone knew that the Malaysia data center
嗯，大家都知道 Malaysia data center
05:19
thing was a cut out to smuggle China.
那件事就是个用来向 China 走私的幌子。
05:22
That had been reported actually by the times over a year ago.
其实 The Times 一年多前就报道过了。
05:26
And even before that, people understood that Malaysia
而且在那之前，人们就已经知道 Malaysia
05:29
didn't have a big AI development program.
并没有一个大型的 AI 开发计划。
05:31
If 10 or 15% of NVIDIA's revenue was coming from Malaysia,
如果 NVIDIA 收入的 10% 或 15% 是来自 Malaysia，
05:36
really that meant that those chips were being distributed to China
那其实就意味着那些 chips 正以某种方式
05:41
in one way or another.
被分发到 China。
05:42
Now people, some people think they were actually just kind of like
现在，有些人觉得它们其实就像是
05:45
brought to the data center, had the labels removed and replaced
被带到 data center，标签被移除并替换掉
05:50
and then just sent directly to mainland China
然后就直接送到 mainland China
05:53
as a real smuggling operation.
当成一次真正的走私行动。
05:55
Others were maybe like, well, maybe the data center is being used
其他人可能会说，嗯，也许这个 data center 正在被
05:57
by Chinese assets in some way.
中国资产以某种方式使用。
06:00
But that was pretty well known.
但这件事其实已经挺广为人知了。
06:02
The affair thing, there were whispers.
这件事嘛，一直都有传闻。
06:06
It wasn't a complete stutter.
这并不完全出乎意料。
06:09
I had heard stuff about this going into the summer particularly
尤其是快入夏的时候，我就听说过一些关于这件事的消息，
06:14
and had been trying to find this.
也一直在试图查这件事。
06:16
But I didn't have access to the thing that I guess really broke
但我没能接触到那个我猜真正把这事爆出来的东西
06:21
the story, which was actually White House intelligence.
这个故事，其实来自 White House 的情报。
06:23
And this was the kind of surprising thing getting the third part.
而这正是讲到第三部分时那种让人意外的地方。
06:26
The, all those is a story about NVIDIA and all that's a story
那些，全都是关于 NVIDIA 的故事，而那也是一个关于
06:29
about kind of smuggling and affairs and stuff.
算是走私和各种事情之类的故事。
06:32
I think Jensen found himself on the wrong side
我觉得 Jensen 发现自己站到了错误的一边
06:34
of the China hawks here.
也就是这里的对华鹰派的对立面。
06:36
And I think that's where a lot of kind of the reporting on this
而我觉得很多关于这件事的报道
06:39
went.
都往这个方向去了。
06:40
It went to the China hawks who had an accident with Jensen.
结果落到了那些跟 Jensen 出了点状况的对华鹰派手里。
06:44
Yeah, and I want to talk about that in a moment.
对，这个我待会儿想聊。
06:45
But before we get there, I think one of the big reasons
但在说这个之前，我觉得一个重要原因是
06:48
this is a big story is we don't have that many examples of CEOs
这件事之所以是大新闻，是因为我们其实没多少例子，能举出
06:52
who are as powerful as Jensen Wong.
像 Jensen Wong 这么有权力的 CEO。
06:54
So can you just briefly for our listeners?
所以你能不能先简单给听众朋友们
06:56
Describe his role at NVIDIA in the greater AI ecosystem
讲一下他在 NVIDIA 和整个 AI 生态里的角色
07:01
and explain maybe why it's sort of uniquely damaging for him
再解释一下，为什么这事对他来说可能格外伤？
07:05
to be involved in a scandal like this.
卷入这样的丑闻。
07:07
Jensen is the founder CEO and basically came of NVIDIA.
Jensen 是创始人 CEO，基本上算是 NVIDIA 的创办者。
07:12
He's been in that role for 30 plus years.
他在这个职位上已经干了 30 多年。
07:15
NVIDIA is an unusual organization.
NVIDIA 是一家很不寻常的组织。
07:17
Typically you'll have an appropriate org chart like the CEO
通常你会有一个合适的 org chart，比如 CEO
07:20
and then like kind of a second layer of management
然后大概还有第二层管理层
07:23
and maybe six to eight people who assist the CEO in various roles.
然后可能还有六到八个人，以各种角色协助 CEO。
07:27
That doesn't exist in NVIDIA.
这在 NVIDIA 并不存在。
07:29
There's Jensen, there's nobody in the second tier
有 Jensen，第二梯队根本没人
07:31
and then there's 60 people who report directly to him.
然后有 60 个人直接向他汇报。
07:35
So it's a very unusual arrangement.
所以这是一种非常不寻常的安排。
07:37
NVIDIA is Jensen to a degree that I've almost never seen
NVIDIA 在某种程度上就是 Jensen，这种程度我几乎没见过
07:40
it any other corporation except maybe some of Elon Musk's stuff.
在其他任何公司身上，也许除了 Elon Musk 的一些东西。
07:44
It's really just this one guy in control,
真的就是这一个人掌控着，
07:48
managing and running everything.
管理和运营着一切。
07:50
So if he is compromised, if he has to step down,
所以如果他出了问题，如果他不得不卸任，
07:54
if in some way he can't do his job,
如果他在某种程度上没法做好自己的工作，
07:56
that's uniquely damaging for NVIDIA.
那对 NVIDIA 来说会是格外严重的打击。
07:59
NVIDIA has grown so large selling AI hardware,
NVIDIA 已经靠卖 AI hardware 发展到这么大的规模，
08:03
selling microchips in particular into data centers
尤其是把 microchips 卖进 data centers，
08:06
that it's now like a lynch pin of the American economy.
以至于它现在就像是美国经济的关键支点。
08:09
So there's this giant key man risk,
所以就有这种巨大的 key man risk，
08:12
not just for NVIDIA, but actually to some extent
不只是对 NVIDIA，实际上从某种程度上说
08:14
for the entire US economy around this guy.
对整个美国经济来说，也都系于这个人身上。
08:17
So this is a painful one for US markets.
所以这对美国市场来说是很痛苦的一件事。
08:21
It's very painful for NVIDIA.
这对 NVIDIA 来说非常痛苦。
08:23
Jensen's judgment has to be called into question.
Jensen 的判断力不得不让人打个问号。
08:26
This guy was a bulletproof for the last decade.
过去十年里，这家伙一直无懈可击。
08:29
His thought did nothing but go up
他的想法一路只往上走，
08:31
and every call he made was right.
而且他做出的每一个判断都是对的。
08:34
Now it doesn't look that way.
现在看起来可不是这样了。
08:37
I understand this is going to take a little while to play out,
我明白这还需要一点时间才会逐渐显现出来，
08:39
but given his importance as you've described it,
但考虑到他像你说的那么重要，
08:41
I mean, would you be surprised if he was ousted?
我是说，如果他真被赶下台，你会意外吗？
08:44
I would be surprised if the board fired him.
如果董事会把他解雇了，我会意外。
08:47
I don't think that would be in the best interest
我不觉得那会最符合
08:49
of NVIDIA shareholders, and that's their job, right?
NVIDIA 股东的利益，而那是他们的职责，对吧？
08:52
I think that would make NVIDIA stock go down a lot.
我觉得那会让 NVIDIA 股价大跌。
08:54
So I don't think the board will do that.
所以我不认为董事会会那么做。
08:56
The real risk to me to Jensen comes from what Democrats
对我来说，Jensen 面临的真正风险来自 Democrats 会做什么
09:00
and Republicans are both acting for,
而 Republicans 这边同样也在为此行动，
09:01
which is congressional hearings and congressional testimony.
也就是国会听证会和国会作证。
09:04
And there's a number of ways that this can go wrong,
而且这件事有很多种出问题的方式，
09:07
but probably the most important one is
但可能最重要的一个是，
09:09
the fact that it is so obvious to anyone looking at it
事实是，任何人只要看一眼都会觉得太明显了，
09:12
for one second that these data centers in Malaysia
哪怕只看一秒，这些在 Malaysia 的数据中心
09:16
were not for Malaysian people.
并不是给 Malaysian 民众用的。
09:19
They were for Chinese AI developers
它们是给 Chinese AI developers 用的。
09:20
to get around these export restrictions.
为了绕过这些出口限制。
09:23
And Jensen could maybe play DOM
而且 Jensen 也许可以装傻
09:24
and not understand that in an abstract way,
而不是从抽象层面去理解这件事，
09:26
but if he's sleeping with the head of the company,
但如果他都跟公司负责人睡在一起了，
09:29
he can't play DOM anymore, right?
他就不能再装傻了，对吧？
09:31
Like, he must have known what was going on.
就是说，他肯定知道当时发生了什么。
09:33
And that's against the law, right?
而且那是违法的，对吧？
09:36
So this creates an enormous, I think, legal liability
所以我认为，这会带来巨大的法律责任。
09:39
both for NVIDIA.
这两件事都是针对 NVIDIA 的。
09:40
They might have to pay a massive fine.
他们可能得支付巨额罚款。
09:42
And even for Jensen himself,
甚至对 Jensen 本人来说，
09:45
the Republicans are asking him to testify behind closed doors.
共和党人也在要求他闭门作证。
09:49
That's actually positive for Jensen
这对 Jensen 来说其实是好事，
09:50
because it's less embarrassing.
因为这样没那么尴尬。
09:52
I think the Democrats are going to hold our attempt
我觉得民主党人会举行——我们试图
09:55
to hold their own inquiries and hearings
举行他们自己的调查和听证会
09:56
once they take control.
一旦他们掌控了局面。
09:58
And I imagine those will be public.
而且我猜那些会被公开。
10:00
I mean, it's going to be a tricky situation for him.
我是说，对他来说这会是个很棘手的局面。
10:02
I just don't know how he can say,
我就是不知道他怎么能说，
10:05
oh, I didn't know that Malaysia was a cutout.
哦，我不知道马来西亚是个中间人。
10:08
I didn't know about this woman.
我不知道还有这个女人。
10:10
And this is the thing that shocks me, okay?
而这正是让我震惊的地方，好吗？
10:13
Like, you know, it's terrible that Jensen had an affair.
就像，你知道，Jensen 有婚外情这件事是很糟糕。
10:16
But these things do happen, right?
但这种事确实会发生，对吧？
10:18
In the course of kind of like human life.
在某种程度上，这就是人生的一部分。
10:21
I'm so shocked that Jensen had an affair
我太震惊了，Jensen 居然搞婚外情
10:24
with this specific woman who is just a walking red flag.
而且还是跟这个特定的女人，她简直就是个行走的危险信号。
10:29
Like, she had no background in computer science
就是说，她根本没有 computer science 的背景
10:32
as far as anyone could tell.
反正从大家能看出来的情况来说是这样。
10:33
And suddenly, she's running this kind of data center operation
然后突然之间，她就在运营这种 data center 业务
10:36
that's a front.
而那其实是个幌子。
10:38
This woman is a smuggler.
这个女人是个走私犯。
10:40
And to begin a romantic relationship with someone like that
而且跟那种人开始一段恋爱关系
10:44
just shows an almost like self-destructive amount
简直显示出一种几乎自我毁灭程度的
10:47
of poor judgment.
糟糕判断力。
10:49
I can't believe nobody warned him.
我真不敢相信没人警告过他。
10:50
But the thing about Jensen is he's very strong
但Jensen的特点是，他非常强势
10:54
and doesn't listen to any advice.
而且什么建议都不听。
10:55
I mean, so, you know, he did.
我是说，所以，你知道的，他还真就这么做了。
10:56
Yeah, I mean, let me ask.
嗯，我是说，让我问一句。
10:57
You wrote, you have sort of literally written the book
你写了，你差不多算是实打实地写了那本关于 Jensen 的书。
10:59
on Jensen.
你花了很多时间，某种程度上是在揣摩他脑子里在想什么。
11:00
You spent a lot of time sort of in his head.
你觉得当时到底是怎么回事？
11:02
What do you think was going on there?
这纯粹就是一次彻底的判断失误吗？
11:04
Was it just a total lapse in judgment?
是啊。
11:06
Yeah.
对，纯粹是傲慢。
11:07
Yeah, pure hubris.
11:08
I mean, I don't think I don't think there was some strategic thing
我是说，我不觉得，我不觉得他这是在搞什么策略性的东西。
11:10
he was doing.
不，你觉得他当时脑子里在想什么？
11:11
No, what do you think was going on in his head?
对。
11:13
Right.
你知道，他、他上当了。
11:14
You know, he he fell for it.
我是说，他被耍了。
11:16
I mean, he got played.
他被耍了。
11:18
He got played.
这就是，这就是你能说的全部了。
11:18
That's all that's all you could say.
11:20
Yeah.
Yeah.
11:21
In terms of just to return to the question
回到刚才这个问题：
11:23
of Jensen's role in video,
Jensen 在视频里的角色，
11:25
if he doesn't up having to leave the company down the road,
如果他最终不必离开公司，
11:27
is there a succession plan in place?
有没有已经安排好的接班计划？
11:29
As you say, he's the king.
就像你说的，他就是国王。
11:31
Like, who's the heir?
那谁是继承人？
11:32
I asked him who's your who's your successor?
我问他，你的……你的继任者是谁？
11:34
And he's like, nobody.
他说，没人。
11:35
He didn't have any kind of plan personally.
他个人根本没有任何计划。
11:37
He never personally selected or named any kind of successor.
他从来没有亲自挑选或指定过任何接班人。
11:42
You know, again, hubris, maybe he thought he was immortal.
你知道，还是那句话，傲慢吧，也许他觉得自己不会死。
11:45
Yeah, I didn't put this question to the board.
对，我没把这个问题提给董事会。
11:47
This was back in 2024.
这是2024年的事了。
11:49
And they say, oh, you know, we've looked at some candidates.
他们说，哦，你知道，我们看过一些候选人。
11:52
One of those candidates was a guy named Jay Puri.
其中一个候选人是个叫 Jay Puri 的人。
11:54
He just retired.
他刚退休。
11:56
And he's in the 70s.
而且他已经七十多岁了。
11:57
So I don't think it's going to be him.
所以我觉得不会是他。
11:58
You know, I think Jensen is going to fight this one
你知道，我觉得 Jensen 会拼尽全力去应对这件事。
12:01
as hard as he can.
而 Jensen 是个斗士。
12:02
And Jensen is a fighter.
他是个敢打白刃战的人。
12:03
He's a knife fighter.
我其实觉得他很可能会挺过去。
12:04
I actually think he will probably survive this.
12:08
Believe it or not, you know,
信不信由你，你知道，就像我说的，真正能把他拉下马的是国会听证会。
12:09
the thing that would bring him down
我不，呃，你知道，永远别说永远不可能。
12:10
as I say is congressional hearings.
我觉得董事会不会把他赶走。
12:12
I don't, you know, never say never.
而且董事会里有一些 NVIDIA 的原始创始人，比如 Tench Cox 这样的人，他从第一天起、从 1993 年起就一直在那儿。
12:14
I don't think the board will get rid of him.
12:17
And the board is comprised of some of the original founders
12:21
of NVIDIA guys like Tench Cox,
12:23
who have been there since day one, since 1993.
12:26
You know, Tench Cox has I think something
你知道，我觉得 Tench Cox 有
12:29
like two to three billion dollars worth of NVIDIA stock.
大概价值二十到三十亿美元的 NVIDIA 股票。
12:32
Like he's not going to do anything
他肯定不会去做任何
12:33
to damage the company.
损害公司的事。
12:35
Yeah.
是啊。
12:36
So I know that two of Jensen's kids
所以我知道 Jensen 有两个孩子
12:37
and a son-in-law work at NVIDIA.
和一个女婿在 NVIDIA 工作。
12:39
They're not being as far as you know,
据你所知，他们并没有那么……
12:40
sort of groomed to take over his position at some point.
有点像被培养着，将来某个时候接替他的位置。
12:43
Yeah, so this is an interesting question.
是啊，所以这是个挺有意思的问题。
12:45
This is the thing.
事情是这样的。
12:46
Jensen always presented to me and to others
Jensen 在我和其他人面前一直展现出的
12:49
this total family man image.
是一种十足的顾家男人形象。
12:51
And we talked about his wife a lot.
而且我们还经常聊到他妻子。
12:52
How much he loved her.
聊他有多爱她。
12:53
They've been together since he was 17 years old.
他们从 17 岁起就在一起了。
12:55
They got married in the early 20s.
他们在20年代初结婚。
12:57
If they get divorced,
如果他们离婚，
12:58
she may become one of the wealthiest women in America
她可能会成为美国最富有的女性之一
13:01
independently, sort of like McKenzie, Scott Bezos.
而且是靠自己，有点像 McKenzie, Scott Bezos。
13:04
But his kids are close.
但他的孩子们跟他很亲近。
13:06
He keeps them at the company, Madison and Spencer.
他把他们留在公司，Madison 和 Spencer。
13:09
But they don't have technical backgrounds.
但他们没有技术背景。
13:12
Spencer studied photography,
Spencer 学的是摄影，
13:14
Madison went to culinary school.
Madison 去读了烹饪学校。
13:16
And whoever runs NVIDIA,
而无论是谁掌管 NVIDIA、无论是谁当 CEO，除了是商人之外，还必须是世界级的 computer scientist。
13:17
whoever's the CEO,
他们必须是当今在世最顶尖的 computer scientists 之一。
13:19
has to be, in addition to being a business person,
而 Jensen 就是这样的人。
13:22
a world-class computer scientist.
我是说，他是 National Academy of Engineering 的成员。
13:25
They have to be one of the best computer scientists alive.
13:29
Which is what Jensen is.
13:30
I mean, he's in the National Academy of Engineering.
13:32
He's got a Master's in Electrical Engineering.
他拥有 Electrical Engineering 的硕士学位。
13:34
You know, he talked to people like his computer science skills
你知道，他跟人聊起来，感觉他的 computer science 技能非常出色。
13:37
are excellent.
这样他们就能在过渡期到场。
13:38
So they can be present for the transition.
他们会继承大量股份。
13:40
They will inherit a large number of shares.
但我觉得他们没法经营这家公司。
13:42
But I don't think they can run the company.
Madison 今年早些时候嫁给了这个叫 Nico Caprez 的人。
13:45
Madison married this guy, Nico Caprez,
13:47
earlier this year.
13:48
I think it was just about a month ago in Hawaii.
我记得差不多是一个月前，在 Hawaii。
13:51
So Jensen has him as the son-in-law as well.
所以 Jensen 也把他当女婿了。
13:53
He's been promoted rapidly within the company.
他在公司里升得特别快。
13:56
We'll see if he actually has a role to play.
我们看看他到底会不会发挥作用。
13:59
Let's turn to the political question here.
咱们来聊聊这里的政治问题。
14:01
I think it's fair to say that Jensen
我觉得可以这么说，Jensen 是 Trump 最喜欢的 CEO，或者至少是他最喜欢的 CEO 之一。
14:03
is Trump's favorite CEO,
14:04
or certainly one of his favorite CEO.
14:06
I think he was.
我觉得他是。
14:09
So the president says he will take him on his upcoming trip to China.
所以总统说，他会在即将到来的中国之行中带上他。
14:12
Here's the Trump quote.
这是Trump的原话。
14:13
I haven't heard he's done anything wrong.
我没听说过他做错什么事。
14:15
He dealt with somebody,
他和某个人打过交道，
14:17
but you know, so does everybody else.
但你知道，别人也都一样。
14:19
I think he's an honorable guy.
我觉得他是个正派人。
14:21
I think he probably has an excuse for it.
我觉得他大概对此有个说法。
14:23
You have to hear it.
你得听听这个。
14:24
No, you can't do that with people.
不，你不能对人这么干。
14:26
He has done an amazing job for our country.
他为我们国家做了非常了不起的工作。
14:28
That's the president of the United States
那是美国总统
14:30
on the man who is having an affair
在说那个有婚外情的男人
14:31
with an alleged Chinese spy.
对方是一名据称是中国间谍。
14:33
But how did Jensen get into this position
但 Jensen 是怎么坐到这个位置的
14:36
in the Trump administration?
在 Trump 政府里？
14:37
And furthermore,
而且，
14:38
how did he become such an important figure
他是怎么成为这么重要的人物的，
14:40
in the AI sector in general?
在整个 AI 领域里？
14:42
Yeah, this is the amazing thing.
对，这就是让人惊叹的地方。
14:43
When I was talking to Jensen 24,
我跟 Jensen 24 聊天的时候，
14:46
he had no interest in politics.
他对政治毫无兴趣。
14:48
He had never made a political donation
他从来没做过政治捐款，
14:49
and he had never endorsed a political candidate
也从来没支持过任何政治候选人。
14:52
or indeed any policy.
或者说实际上任何政策。
14:53
I mean, a couple of things related to, you know, exports,
我是说，有几件跟，你知道，出口相关的事，
14:56
but very little.
但非常少。
14:58
You know, he was not a political guy
你知道，他不是搞政治的，
15:00
and he didn't even attend Trump's inauguration.
而且他甚至都没去参加 Trump 的就职典礼。
15:02
He was in Taiwan while Sam and all the rest
他当时在 Taiwan，而 Sam 和其他所有人
15:04
of that work kind of behind Trump
那些在某种程度上站在 Trump 背后的人
15:06
in that show of power in the inauguration.
在那场就职典礼的权力展示中。
15:08
But he got Trump's ear.
但他让特朗普听得进他的话。
15:10
And my impression is that he kind of became Trump's friend
而我的印象是，他某种程度上成了特朗普的朋友
15:14
through this really kind of shameless approach of flattery.
靠的就是那种特别不要脸的拍马屁方式。
15:18
Jensen is an engineer.
Jensen 是个工程师。
15:19
And what he told me,
他跟我说的是，
15:20
he thinks about everything as an engineering problem.
他把所有事情都当成一个 engineering problem 来想。
15:23
Meaning you're going to study the inputs,
也就是说，你会去研究 inputs，
15:25
look at the outputs
看看 outputs
15:26
and then modify the inputs to control the system
然后修改输入来控制这个系统
15:28
until you get the outcome that you want.
直到你得到想要的结果。
15:30
Well, you know, Trump is a bottomless need for validation.
嗯，你知道，Trump 对认可有一种无底洞般的需求。
15:34
And Jensen supplies that to him.
而 Jensen 正好给他提供这个。
15:36
He's just shamelessly kisses his butt.
他就是毫不遮掩地拍他马屁。
15:39
And I think this makes Trump like it.
我觉得这让 Trump 挺受用的。
15:41
You know, and the other thing is Jensen's a winner, right?
你知道，另外一点是 Jensen 是个赢家，对吧？
15:44
Trump always knows to be around winners.
Trump 总是知道要跟赢家待在一起。
15:45
And for most of this year in video
而在今年大部分时间里，Nvidia
15:47
was the single most valuable company in the world.
是全球市值最高的公司。
15:50
Maybe in human history.
也许在人类历史上也是如此。
15:51
And so this made Trump and Jensen
所以这让 Trump 和 Jensen
15:53
want to be close to each other.
想要彼此走得很近。
15:54
I think Jensen understands Trump at a certain level,
我觉得 Jensen 在某种程度上理解 Trump，
15:57
how to program him.
知道怎么 program 他。
15:58
You know, he's not,
你知道，他并不是，
15:59
he goes not going to get in the way of Jensen
他说，不会挡 Jensen 的路
16:02
and the way it might for another tech executive.
而换成另一位科技高管，可能就会这样挡路了
16:04
Right.
对。
16:05
Let's talk about his Jensen stance on China
我们来聊聊 Jensen 对 China 的立场
16:08
because that's important to the story
因为这对整个故事很重要
16:09
on a couple different levels.
在几个不同层面上。
16:10
He's been a pretty outspoken advocate for
他一直相当直言不讳地主张
16:13
essentially selling his own chips directly to China
基本上就是把自己的 chips 直接卖给 China
16:16
in contravention of US export restrictions on those chips,
违反了美国对那些 chips 的出口限制，
16:20
which have been put into place
这些限制已经实施，
16:21
to try to slow down China's own AI development.
目的是试图拖慢中国自己的 AI 发展。
16:24
Tell me a little bit about his stance,
跟我说说他的立场吧，
16:26
how he came to that and how he's advocated for it.
他是怎么形成这个立场的，又是怎么去倡导它的。
16:29
You know, I was always a little surprised by it myself,
你知道，我自己一直对此有点意外，
16:31
but there's certainly a great business case for it, right?
但这背后肯定有很强的商业逻辑，对吧？
16:33
China is going to have a massive data center
中国将会拥有一个超大规模的 data center
16:35
build out that looks just like the US's.
建一个跟美国那边一模一样的 build out。
16:37
And when they do,
等他们真这么做了，
16:38
they're going to fill that all within computing equipment.
他们就会把里面全用 computing equipment 填满。
16:40
So that's another entire data center build out
所以那就是又一个完整的 data center build out，
16:43
that he can supply,
而他能供应得上，
16:44
which presumably would double the value of his company.
这估计会让他公司的价值翻倍。
16:47
That's a very straightforward,
这就是一个非常直截了当的、
16:49
trying to like PNL profit reason
像是想从 PNL 利润角度去算的理由。
16:51
that Jensen wants this.
这是 Jensen 想要的。
16:53
I think also the justification for this is
我觉得这么做的理由也在于，
16:56
like if we don't sell this to them,
就是，如果我们不把这个卖给他们，
16:58
they will build it.
他们就会自己造。
16:59
They will build their own kind of AI hardware stack
他们会打造自己的一套 AI hardware stack，
17:02
and then we'll have to compete against that
然后我们就得跟它竞争，
17:04
and that will be very challenging for us
那对我们来说会非常有挑战性，
17:05
and we might lose.
而且我们可能会输。
17:06
And Jensen is genuinely very afraid of that.
而 Jensen 真的非常害怕这一点。
17:09
That is a theme that has been going all the way back
那是一个一直可以追溯回去的主题
17:11
to his career right to the beginning.
一直追溯到他职业生涯的最开始。
17:13
The fear that his equipment,
他害怕自己的设备，
17:15
even in the video game days,
哪怕是在做电子游戏的那些年，
17:16
would get cloned by Chinese competitors
会被中国竞争对手仿制
17:18
and sold it a fraction of the cost
然后以成本的一小部分价格卖出去
17:20
and he would go out of business.
而他会因此倒闭。
17:21
Certainly, that's the history of hardware.
当然，那是硬件的历史。
17:24
So it's normal that he would be afraid of that
所以他会害怕这一点，并想设法阻止它，这很正常。
17:26
and would be looking to prevent that.
现在毒化这场讨论的，是这段恋爱关系。
17:29
What poisons the discourse now
嗯，你这么说是因为你相信它，还是因为你和一个外国情报资产有牵连？
17:32
is this romantic relationship.
17:34
Well, are you saying this because you believe it
17:36
or are you saying this
17:37
because you entangled with a foreign intelligence asset
17:41
who was manipulating you?
谁在操纵你？
17:44
You know, I think probably that narrative is not true.
你知道，我觉得那套说法可能不是真的。
17:47
I think Jensen would say this anyway,
我觉得 Jensen 反正都会这么说，
17:49
but his credibility is zero.
但他的可信度为零。
17:51
Like he can never talk about China
就像他永远没法谈中国
17:54
or export restrictions.
或者出口限制。
17:55
Again, without sounding like a fool,
再说一次，在不让自己听起来像个傻瓜的情况下，
17:57
like an intelligence play has happened.
就像已经发生了一场情报博弈。
17:59
Like a patty, basically.
基本上就像块肉饼。
18:00
Yeah, precisely.
对，正是如此。
18:01
Yeah, like a stooge.
对，就像个傀儡。
18:03
So I think that argument has gone out the window.
所以我觉得那个论点已经站不住脚了。
18:06
I think I imagine Nvidia will in short order
我想，我猜 Nvidia 很快就会
18:09
not be able to sell anything to China ever again.
再也没法卖给中国任何东西了。
18:11
Yeah, I mean, well, let's talk about a little bit.
是啊，我是说，好吧，咱们稍微聊一下。
18:13
You brought up before the possibility
你之前提到过一种可能性
18:16
that essentially what's happened here
基本上，这里发生的情况就是
18:17
is that Jensen's enemies within the Trump administration
Jensen 在 Trump 政府内部的敌人
18:20
had sort of gotten their knives out for him.
有点对他磨刀霍霍了。
18:23
Tell me why you think that
跟我说说你觉得为什么会这样
18:24
and who those enemies would be.
以及那些敌人会是谁。
18:27
There were people on the right who did not like this.
右翼里有人不喜欢这一点。
18:30
I don't think that it's not that they didn't like Jensen.
我不觉得是他们不喜欢 Jensen。
18:32
They didn't like his kind of soft take on China.
他们不喜欢他在中国问题上那种偏软的立场。
18:35
They didn't like that he was kind of pro-free trade
他们不喜欢他有点偏向支持自由贸易
18:37
which I know.
这我知道。
18:38
These are the China hawks in the right.
这些是右翼里的对华鹰派。
18:41
So, you know, guys like Peter Thiel,
所以你知道，像 Peter Thiel 这样的人，
18:43
but guys like Paul Lucky.
但像 Paul Lucky 这样的人。
18:45
And in particular, you know, Mark Rubio
尤其是，你知道，Mark Rubio
18:47
who is a very long time China hawk
他长期以来都是个对华鹰派
18:49
and who was also Trump's secretary of state.
而且他也曾是 Trump 的国务卿。
18:52
Rubio actually wasn't permitted inside of China
Rubio其实有一阵子是不被允许进入中国的，因为他的言论太鹰派了。
18:54
for a while because his statements were so hawkish.
美国情报界之所以会知道这件事，是因为他们对 Alice 那个女人有某种窃听，而 Jensen 出现在了那段窃听内容里。
18:57
The intelligence communities in the US got to this story
然后 Mark Rubio 准备了一份备忘录，表明那就是 Jensen，并把这份备忘录分享给了 Trump。
19:01
because they had some kind of wiretap on the woman on Alice
然后 Trump 没有采取任何行动。
19:05
and Jensen showed up in that wiretap.
19:07
And Mark Rubio prepared a memo
19:09
showing that it was Jensen and shared that with Trump.
19:12
And then Trump took no action.
19:14
And so I imagine at least part of the reason
所以我想，至少有一部分原因是，我们媒体界现在会听到这种说法，是因为白宫里有人想削弱 Jensen 对总统的影响力。
19:17
we in the press are now hearing that
所以我觉得这里面有一个因素，就是对华鹰派重新夺回了叙事的主导权，也重新夺回了白宫内部的权力。
19:19
is because someone in the White House
19:22
wanted to reduce Jensen's influence over the president.
19:26
So I think that there was an element here
19:28
of the China hawks taking back control
19:32
of the narrative and taking back control of power
19:35
within the White House.
19:36
Yeah, let's talk about the chips and the sort of supply chain.
对，我们聊聊 chips 和那种供应链吧。
19:39
So this is a very, you know,
所以这个其实非常，你知道，
19:42
the details are sort of complicated
细节有点复杂
19:43
exactly what is happening in the mega speed case.
到底 mega speed 这个案子里发生了什么。
19:46
But it's something like Nvidia selling chips
但大概是 Nvidia 把 chips 卖给
19:48
to the US arm of a Chinese company
一家中国公司的美国分支
19:51
which then sells them on to mega speed.
然后这个分支再把它们转卖给 mega speed。
19:53
Yeah, is this a sort of normal?
对，这算是正常情况吗？
19:55
I mean, I think you sort of have a question before.
我是说，我觉得你之前好像有个问题。
19:58
This is how you smuggle something, right?
这就是你走私东西的方式，对吧？
20:00
You establish a dummy corporation in a different country
你在另一个国家成立一家空壳公司
20:04
and then you, you know, you read it's it.
然后你，你知道，你就……
20:06
What's why import export can be kind of a shady business
这就是为什么进出口有时候会有点像灰色生意
20:09
right sometimes, right?
对吧，有时候就是这样，对吧？
20:10
So there was a case earlier this year
所以今年早些时候有个案子
20:11
where guys at super micro were taking these boxes
super micro 的那些人在搬这些箱子
20:15
for video equipment and they would take a hairdryer
对于视频设备，他们会拿一个吹风机
20:17
and blow the packaging label off and peel it off
把包装标签吹掉，然后撕下来
20:21
and then replace it with a fake packaging label.
然后用一个假的包装标签把它换掉。
20:24
You know, in mega speed, the details are still a little fuzzy.
你知道的，在超高速下，细节还是有点模糊。
20:27
One thing that seems to have possibly happened
有一件事似乎可能发生过
20:29
is that they were using the data centers
就是他们在使用 data centers
20:31
actually with dummy servers.
实际上用的是 dummy servers。
20:33
So the Nvidia equipment would show up.
所以 Nvidia 的设备就会出现。
20:35
They would install it quote unquote,
他们会把它装上去，所谓的“装上去”，
20:37
but actually they would install other non functional
但实际上他们会安装其他不能用的
20:40
or other equipment in the data center
或其他设备到 data center 里，
20:42
to make it look like a functional data center.
让它看起来像是一个能正常运转的 data center。
20:45
And then, you know, you wheel the Nvidia equipment
然后，你知道，你就推着 Nvidia 的设备
20:47
maybe out the back door and you cart it off
也许从后门推出去，然后把它运走
20:49
to try and add to some secret location somewhere.
想把它加到某个地方的某个秘密地点。
20:52
Right.
对。
20:52
So that's one thing that seems to have been happening.
所以这是看起来一直在发生的一件事。
20:55
And then kind of even without that,
然后甚至有点像，就算没有那个，
20:58
you know, mega speed seems to be downstream
你知道，mega speed 似乎是
21:00
of Alibaba, which is kind of the Chinese eBay.
Alibaba 的下游，而 Alibaba 有点像中国版 eBay。
21:03
And it seems like Alibaba was the main customer
而且看起来 Alibaba 是
21:05
for mega speeds products.
mega speed 产品的主要客户。
21:07
Again, that appears to, it depends on how you read the law,
再说一次，这似乎，要看你怎么解读法律，
21:10
but I think that's in violation of the export restriction
但我觉得这违反了出口限制。
21:12
as well because you can't use these fronts.
同样也是因为不能用这些幌子。
21:15
The lawmakers are aware that this sort of thing exists.
议员们清楚这种事是存在的。
21:18
So there's a couple of ways to get around it.
所以有几种办法可以绕过去。
21:19
And you know, this year I have heard
而且你知道，今年我听说
21:22
that Nvidia has actually cracked down on this a lot.
Nvidia 其实已经在这方面大力整治了。
21:25
Perhaps recognizing the political liability
也许是意识到了政治风险
21:27
of a lot of these sales.
很多这类销售带来的。
21:29
It is really forcing the data centers
这真的在迫使 data centers
21:31
to make sure that they have legitimate customers
为了确保他们有合法的客户
21:33
who are not in China.
而这些客户不在 China。
21:35
I'm in Singapore right now.
我现在人在 Singapore。
21:36
This is actually just across the bridge.
这个地方其实就在桥对面。
21:37
It's like 30 minutes away from me.
离我大概 30 分钟。
21:39
But you know, as typical with these facilities,
但你知道，这些设施通常都这样，
21:41
you can't access them at all.
你根本进不去。
21:42
They're surrounded by gates.
它们外面一圈都是大门。
21:43
They're surrounded by security.
他们被安保人员包围着。
21:45
No one's allowed in or out.
任何人都不准进出。
21:46
So it's really hard to know what's going on in there.
所以真的很难知道里面到底发生了什么。
21:49
Right.
对。
21:50
You know, as I say, I think it would just,
你知道，就像我说的，我觉得这简直，
21:52
it defies imagination
难以想象，
21:56
that Jensen would not understand
Jensen 会不明白
21:59
what was going on here.
这里到底发生了什么。
22:00
It just is not plausible.
这根本说不通。
22:02
Yeah, let me ask.
嗯，我来问问。
22:04
So it's the commerce department
所以大部分情况下算是 commerce department 在调查。
22:06
that is for the most part sort of investigating.
比如如果你在假的数据中心里装 dummy servers，
22:08
Like if you're installing dummy servers
就是 commerce department 的调查人员会过来查这些。
22:10
in your fake data center,
22:12
it's commerce department investigators
22:14
who are stopping by to check on those.
22:16
How is the US?
美国那边怎么样？
22:17
Right.
对。
22:18
Right.
对。
22:19
Like they have a limited,
就好比他们的能力是有限的，
22:20
there's only so much they can do outside of the United States.
在美国以外，他们能做的事情也就那么多。
22:23
So I think that they're probably guaranteeing
所以我觉得他们大概是在担保
22:25
that the original point of sale
最初的销售点
22:27
or the original destination that is,
或者说是最初的目的地，
22:29
whatever, where the thing is delivered
反正，这东西最后送到的地方
22:31
is in fact, this data center in Malaysia.
其实是在 Malaysia 的这个 data center。
22:33
I mean, they're real.
我是说，它们是真实存在的。
22:34
They exist.
它们确实存在。
22:35
There's not nothing there.
那儿也不是什么都没有。
22:37
Right.
对。
22:38
But once it goes in,
但一旦它进去了，
22:39
like the US has only very limited authority
US 那边其实只有非常有限的权限。
22:42
and insight into what might happen in Malaysia.
以及对马来西亚可能发生什么情况的洞察。
22:45
And from there, there's not much they can do.
而从那里来看，他们能做的也不多。
22:47
And I'm not quite sure how to ask this.
我不太确定该怎么问这个问题。
22:50
But mega speed is it,
但 mega speed 就是它，
22:51
it's a real company.
它是一家真实存在的公司。
22:52
It's not like a fake company.
它不是那种假公司。
22:54
It's not a cut out or anything.
它不是什么空壳公司之类的。
22:55
It appears, it's a great question.
看来，这是个好问题。
22:58
I'm not sure,
我不太确定，
23:01
but it appears to have been formed
但看起来它是在
23:03
in 2023.
2023年成立的。
23:05
In 2023 and Nvidia announced
2023年，它和Nvidia宣布
23:07
that they were a preferred cloud partner,
它是 preferred cloud partner，
23:09
meaning we're going to prefer selling our equipment
意思是我们会更倾向于卖我们的设备
23:11
to this company in Malaysia.
给这家在 Malaysia 的公司。
23:13
You know, they have facilities.
你知道，他们有设施。
23:14
They have big data centers
他们有大型的 data centers
23:17
that seem to use a lot of power.
看起来要消耗很多电力。
23:18
I mean, they built something here.
我是说，他们确实在这里建了些东西。
23:20
So it's not completely phony or anything.
所以它也不是完全假的或者什么的。
23:22
And it seems like people do use
而且看起来确实有人在用
23:25
their computing resources and pay them for it.
他们的 computing resources，并为此付钱。
23:27
It is a real company in that sense.
从这个意义上说，这是一家真实的公司。
23:30
It's just who's using it,
只是，到底是谁在用，
23:31
who's paying it and how legit is any of it
谁来买单，以及这些到底有多靠谱
23:34
are kind of open questions.
都算是悬而未决的问题。
23:36
Well, that's a good place to take a break.
好，这个点正好可以休息一下。
23:38
When we come back,
等我们回来，
23:39
we're going to talk about
我们会聊聊
23:41
what's going on in Singapore where you are right now.
你现在所在的 Singapore 那边是什么情况。
23:53
Running a business
经营一家公司
23:54
means keeping pace with the latest tech.
意味着要跟上最新的 tech。
23:56
You put a lot into building
你在搭建
23:57
your enterprise software stack
自己的 enterprise software stack 上投入了很多，
23:59
and scrapping it to integrate AI
而为了集成 AI 就把它整个废弃
24:01
is out of the question.
根本不可能。
24:03
That's why IBM technology
这就是为什么 IBM 技术
24:05
works with all the apps,
能与所有独特的 apps、
24:06
data and models unique.
data 和 models 协同工作。
24:09
It's another way IBM helps you
这是 IBM 帮助你的另一种方式。
24:10
build on the technology you rely on.
在你所依赖的技术之上构建。
24:13
Let's create smarter business.
让我们打造更智能的业务。
24:15
IBM, visit IBM.com to learn more.
IBM，访问 IBM.com 了解更多。
24:22
Stripe is built for whatever comes next
Stripe 为接下来的一切而打造。
24:24
because AI isn't just changing business.
因为 AI 不只是在改变商业。
24:27
It's evolving fraud.
它也在让欺诈不断演变。
24:28
Stripe radar detects fraud with the vast scale
Stripe radar 检测欺诈，靠的是庞大规模
24:31
of Stripe's $1.9 trillion annual transaction volume.
也就是 Stripe 每年 1.9 万亿美元的 transaction volume。
24:35
In fact, when a card is used,
其实，当一张卡被使用时，
24:37
there's a 92% chance
有 92% 的概率
24:38
the Stripe network has seen it before.
Stripe 网络之前已经见过它。
24:40
That means emerging fraud patterns
这意味着新出现的欺诈模式
24:42
are detected sooner,
能更早被检测到，
24:43
blocking bad actors,
拦截不法分子，
24:45
welcoming good customers.
欢迎优质客户。
24:47
Learn more about fighting fraud with Stripe
了解更多关于用 Stripe 打击欺诈的信息
24:49
at Stripe.com slash radar.
在 Stripe.com/radar。
24:52
Your business is built for something bigger.
你的企业生来就是为了成就更大的事业。
24:55
That's why FM brings together engineering expertise.
正因如此，FM 汇聚了工程领域的专业力量。
24:59
AI powered by FM collected data
由 FM 收集的数据驱动的 AI
25:02
and trusted partnership
以及值得信赖的合作伙伴关系
25:03
to help you reduce risk before disruption.
帮助你在业务中断之前降低风险。
25:06
FM helps protect
FM 帮助保护
25:08
what makes your business possible
让你业务得以运转的一切
25:10
so you can focus on what matters most
这样你就能专注于最重要的事
25:12
and progress with confidence.
并自信地向前推进。
25:15
FM protect your purpose.
FM 守护你的初衷。
25:19
Visit FM.com forward slash protect your purpose.
访问 FM.com/protect-your-purpose。
25:24
Welcome back to HardFork.
欢迎回到 HardFork。
25:24
I'm talking with Stephen Whit.
我现在在和 Stephen Whit 聊天。
25:26
You are in fact in Singapore.
你确实在新加坡。
25:28
What's the reaction been like on the ground?
当地的反应怎么样？
25:30
Like, have you, you know, what?
就，你们有没有，你知道，什么？
25:32
Is everybody in Singapore talking about this?
Singapore 所有人都在聊这个吗？
25:34
Oh, yeah, I mean, everybody in Singapore
哦，对，我是说，Singapore 每个人
25:36
is like, I mean, I think the reaction is
就像，我是说，我觉得反应是
25:38
what took you guys so long?
你们怎么花了这么长时间？
25:40
This was, Singapore had been
这事儿是，Singapore 一直
25:42
busting smuggling rings.
在打击走私团伙。
25:44
The authorities here going back to 2024.
这里的当局从 2024 年就开始了。
25:47
Like, they were aware that at least some of this
就是，他们至少意识到其中一些
25:50
was happening.
正在发生。
25:51
And I think that, you know,
而且我觉得，你知道，
25:53
because Johor is just across the way
因为 Johor 就在对面，
25:54
and a lot of people who live in Singapore
而且很多住在新加坡的人
25:56
actually work kind of in Malaysia.
其实算是在 Malaysia 工作。
25:58
Because Malaysia has become outside
因为 Malaysia 已经成了 Maganspeed 之外的
26:00
of Maganspeed a data center hub.
一个 data center hub。
26:01
This should be said.
这话得说。
26:02
Like, there's legitimately a big industry there.
就是说，那边确实有一个很大的产业。
26:05
And it employs a lot of people
而且它雇了很多人
26:06
and they're very proud of it.
他们对此非常自豪。
26:08
So I don't want to smear them all
所以我不想把他们全都抹黑
26:09
as some kind of like criminal conspiracy.
说成是某种犯罪阴谋似的。
26:11
It's a real thing.
这是真实存在的。
26:12
But, you know, I think the impression
但是，你知道，我觉得这个印象
26:15
that they got was like, what is going on here?
他们得到的反应就像是：这到底是怎么回事？
26:17
I think there were a lot of whispers
我觉得私底下有很多议论
26:19
about Jensen and this woman, both inside and video
关于 Jensen 和这个女人，内部和视频里都有
26:23
and sort of people who were working around there.
还有那些在那边工作的人。
26:26
I think, you know, I think people got the impression
我觉得，你知道，我觉得大家会有一种印象
26:30
that there was more to their relationship
他们的关系里还有更多东西
26:33
than simply business.
不只是单纯的业务关系。
26:35
But it's a hard thing to prove.
但这事很难证明。
26:36
And I think, you know, without a wiretap,
而且我觉得，你知道，如果没有窃听，
26:39
which is ultimately what brought them down.
而窃听最终正是把他们扳倒的东西。
26:41
Like, how are you going to demonstrate this?
比如，你要怎么证明这一点？
26:43
Right.
对。
26:44
I mean, there was a short seller report
我是说，今年5月有一份做空报告，
26:45
back in May that has now been recirculating
现在又重新流传起来了，
26:47
that seems to have put some of the pieces together.
看起来它把一些线索拼到了一起。
26:50
But it wasn't, it wasn't.
但并不是，并不是。
26:51
I'm able to sort of specifically
我多少能具体地
26:53
describe an affairs happening
描述一件正在发生的事，
26:55
because as you say they didn't have a wiretap themselves.
因为就像你说的，他们自己并没有窃听。
26:58
Yeah, it's very hard.
是啊，这非常难。
26:59
You know, I think people knew,
你知道，我觉得人们是知道的，
27:01
they suspected that something was going on
他们怀疑有什么事情正在发生，
27:03
that his behavior and, and you know,
他的行为，而且，而且你知道，
27:05
you see videos of the two of them together.
你能看到他们俩在一起的视频。
27:08
There's kind of awkward body language
他们俩在一起的时候，肢体语言有点别扭。
27:10
when they're together.
你知道，还有更多照片和视频流出来。
27:12
You know, there's more photographs
所以我猜，如果你在 Jensen 的核心圈子里，你大概也心里有数，至少对正在发生什么有相当清楚的了解。
27:13
and videos leaking out.
我听到过一些零星的传闻。
27:14
So I imagine if you were part of Jensen's
27:16
immediate entourage, you probably had it,
27:20
at least a fairly good idea of what's going on.
27:23
I had heard kind of like stray whispers
27:26
from coming from within that video,
是从那段视频里面来的，
27:28
actually earlier this year,
其实今年早些时候，
27:29
but I was not, I just wasn't able to find it.
但我没有，我就是没能找到它。
27:32
I wasn't able to track it down.
我没能追踪到它的下落。
27:33
You know, it was a hard story to get.
你知道，这个故事很难拿到。
27:35
So it's crazy to the times, actually, for getting it.
所以其实 The Times 能拿到它，挺不可思议的。
27:37
Yeah.
是啊。
27:38
I'll take that, I'm happy to take that.
这个我接受，我很乐意接受。
27:40
You know, as a podcast host,
你知道，作为播客主持人，
27:42
I can't imagine that trying to honeypot the CEO
我真无法想象，试图对 CEO 搞 honeypot
27:45
is the first, you know, line of attack
会是，你知道，第一攻击手段
27:47
for Chinese intelligence services
对于中国情报机构来说
27:48
or the Chinese government in general
或者整体上的中国政府
27:50
trying to accomplish whatever in particular
想具体达成什么
27:52
or trying to accomplish.
或者想达成什么。
27:53
I presume that Nvidia has been a target
我推测 Nvidia 一直是目标
27:55
of infiltration attempts
渗透尝试
27:56
and signals capture
信号捕获
27:58
and whatever else you might do.
以及你可能做的其他任何事。
27:59
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
28:00
Oh, they all have.
哦，他们都干过。
28:02
Yeah, I mean, Nvidia in some ways
是啊，我是说，Nvidia 在某种程度上
28:04
is the least valuable target.
是最没价值的目标。
28:05
They're really going after anthropic and opening eye.
他们真正盯上的是 anthropic 和 opening eye。
28:08
And you know, with Jensen
而且你知道，Jensen 这边
28:10
two trade secrets for Nvidia are pretty valuable,
Nvidia 的两个商业机密相当有价值，
28:13
but China can't actually manufacture
但中国其实造不出来
28:15
what Nvidia manufacturers
Nvidia 制造的那些东西
28:16
because they can't get the equipment.
因为他们拿不到设备。
28:18
So I think with Jensen,
所以我觉得，Jensen 这边
28:19
it probably is more about an influence campaign.
这大概率更像是一场 influence campaign。
28:22
You know, the time that this relationship started,
你知道，这段关系开始的那个时候，
28:25
this is the other thing.
这是另一件事。
28:26
Jensen was not close to Trump at that time.
那时候 Jensen 跟 Trump 并不亲近。
28:29
So they probably had some other motive
所以他们可能另有动机，
28:32
for going after Jensen for first.
才先对 Jensen 下手。
28:34
And then suddenly they were like,
然后突然之间，他们就说：
28:36
oh my god, we got it.
我的天，我们明白了。
28:37
We were literally in bed
我们简直跟总统的最高科技顾问
28:38
with the president's top tech advisor.
穿一条裤子。
28:41
This is awesome.
这太厉害了。
28:42
So this was a big win for the Chinese spies.
所以这对中国间谍来说是个大胜利。
28:44
It was like Christmas morning for them probably.
对他们来说，这大概就像圣诞节早上一样。
28:47
Yeah, I bet.
是啊，很有可能。
28:49
So at the time we're recording this,
所以在我们录这期节目的时候，
28:50
Nvidia stock is down,
Nvidia 的股价在跌，
28:51
but the market overall is relatively calm.
但整体市场相对平静。
28:54
Yeah, despite the importance and power
是啊，尽管其重要性和影响力
28:56
of the companies we've been talking about.
我们一直在谈论的那些公司。
28:57
Why do you think there isn't a bigger reaction
你觉得为什么市场没有更大的反应
29:00
in the markets over this?
对这件事？
29:01
You know, it's funny.
你知道，这挺有意思的。
29:02
So all the AI infrastructure stocks
所以所有那些 AI infrastructure 股票
29:04
that make up so much of the market now
现在占了市场这么大一部分
29:06
are actually trading at very cheap valuations.
实际上估值都非常便宜。
29:10
The market thinks that actually
市场认为，实际上
29:12
the AI infrastructure play is coming to an end
AI infrastructure 这波行情快到头了
29:14
or that there's going to be a drawdown
或者说接下来几年
29:16
in sales in the next couple of years.
销售会有一波回落。
29:18
That's how the stocks are priced.
股票就是按这个来定价的。
29:20
And so maybe some of this was priced in already.
所以也许其中一部分已经 price in 了。
29:23
The other thing is what's bad for Nvidia
另一件事是，对 Nvidia 不利的事情
29:26
is actually good for Nvidia's competitors.
其实对 Nvidia 的竞争对手反而是好事。
29:30
And specifically AMD, Broadcom and Google
具体来说就是 AMD、Broadcom 和 Google
29:34
who are all manufacturing rival microchips.
它们都在制造竞品 microchips。
29:37
Google in particular has really started
尤其是 Google，真的已经开始
29:39
to become one of Nvidia's top rivals.
成为 Nvidia 最主要的竞争对手之一。
29:41
So Nvidia has a number of significant business risks
所以，除了它已经面临的这起间谍丑闻之外，
29:45
outside of this spy scandal that it already faced.
Nvidia 还有不少重大的业务风险。
29:48
And I think some of that was priced
而且我觉得其中一些已经被
29:49
into the stock as well.
反映到股价里了。
29:51
Well, let me ask you one final question
好，我再问你最后一个问题。
29:52
sort of along these lines.
差不多就是这个思路。
29:54
So Jensen is sort of unique in this moment
所以 Jensen 在这个时刻有点独特
29:57
as a tech CEO or especially as an AI CEO
作为 tech CEO，或者尤其是作为 AI CEO
29:59
in that he's maybe he's the least safety focused
他可能是最不关注 safety 的
30:03
or least he's the least afraid of AI as a technology.
或者说，至少他是最不害怕 AI 这项技术的。
30:07
Yeah, it's almost the opposite
是啊，几乎正好相反
30:08
of somebody like Dario Amadeh
跟像 Dario Amadeh 这样的人相比
30:09
who's constantly warning of the possible catastrophe.
他一直在警告可能出现的灾难。
30:12
Jensen gave a big interview
Jensen 接受了一次大型采访
30:14
to my colleague, Aaron Klein earlier this year
今年早些时候，我同事 Aaron Klein 采访了他
30:15
where he sort of makes the case
他在采访里多少是在论证说
30:17
that it's just a tool.
它就是个工具而已。
30:18
We shouldn't be worrying about it like this.
我们不该这样担心它。
30:19
You know, you wrote about this
你知道，你最近写过这个
30:20
for the opinion section recently.
发在评论版上。
30:23
There's a scene at the end of your book
你书的结尾有一个场景
30:24
where he sort of yells at you
他甚至会有点冲你吼
30:26
for even pressing him on this belief.
就因为你哪怕只是追问他这个信念。
30:28
So my question is what happens
所以我的问题是，会发生什么
30:29
if AI's biggest least afraid booster
如果 AI 最大的、最无所畏惧的吹捧者
30:33
loses power, loses credibility
失去权力、失去可信度
30:35
like we've been saying.
就像我们一直在说的那样。
30:36
Do policymakers change their sense
政策制定者会不会改变他们对
30:38
of what AI is?
AI 是什么的理解？
30:39
I mean, is this change the direction
我是说，这个变化是不是未来 AI 发展的方向？
30:42
of AI development in the future?
嗯，可能是吧。
30:44
Yeah, probably.
我是说，Jensen 不是唯一这么想的人。
30:45
I mean, Jensen is not the only person
Trump 的大多数顾问都这么认为。
30:46
who feels this way.
David Sacks 肯定也是这么想的。
30:47
Most of Trump's advisors feel this way.
Mark Andreessen 肯定也是这么想的。
30:49
David Sacks certainly feels this way.
30:51
Mark Andreessen certainly feels this way.
30:53
Same as Jensen.
跟 Jensen 一样。
30:54
They all think AI is completely safe
他们都认为 AI 是绝对安全的
30:55
and that all this humorous discourse
而且这些幽默式的讨论
30:57
is kind of disconnected from reality.
有点跟现实脱节。
31:00
And that has been a long debate.
这个争论已经持续很久了。
31:01
I mean, Jensen believed that long,
我是说，Jensen 早就这么认为了，
31:03
long before he ever hooked up with a Chinese spy.
远在他跟一个中国间谍搭上线之前很久。
31:06
I mean, this goes back to 2015.
我是说，这得追溯到 2015 年。
31:08
But I do think he was probably
但我确实觉得他大概是
31:10
the most convincing and powerful advocate
那种观点最有说服力、最有力的倡导者。
31:13
for that point of view.
他的观点是，他看这件事
31:14
His point of view is he's looking at it
是从 microchip 往上来看的。
31:16
from the microchip up.
他说的是，我对
31:17
He's saying I have complete control
这里的每一种单独的 component 都有完全的控制。
31:19
over each kind of individual component here.
所以如果我正在失去控制
31:21
And so if I'm losing control
31:23
at somewhere along the system,
在系统的某个环节上，
31:25
that just means it's an engineering failure
那只能说明这是个 engineering failure
31:26
and we know how to fix engineering failures.
而且我们知道怎么修 engineering failure。
31:29
As I'm sort of the paradigm is point of view.
而我算是从 paradigm 的角度来看。
31:31
You know, from Dario and Sam
你知道，从 Dario 和 Sam 那边来看
31:32
and the other people are more worried
还有其他人更担心
31:33
they're looking at it from the top down.
他们是从上往下看的。
31:35
And they're saying, I don't know how this thing works.
他们会说，我不知道这东西是怎么运作的。
31:36
It's extremely powerful
它极其强大
31:38
and I might lose control of it.
而我可能会失去对它的控制。
31:40
So that's a really different point of view.
所以那确实是一个非常不同的观点。
31:42
I think that Jensen has lost this one.
我觉得 Jensen 这次输了。
31:46
I've noticed even Trump has started
我注意到，连 Trump 都开始
31:49
to talk a little bit more about,
多谈一些关于，
31:52
you know, maybe we'll regulate it a little bit.
你知道，也许我们会稍微监管一下它。
31:54
I think the democratic wave
我觉得民主浪潮
31:56
that was just put into power
那个刚刚上台的
31:58
had a number of reasons
有很多原因
31:59
including oil prices that they went.
包括他们当时经历的油价。
32:01
But it seems like voters were very concerned about AI.
但看起来选民非常关心 AI。
32:04
I think Trump's point of view
我觉得 Trump 的观点
32:06
and Jensen's point of view is,
和 Jensen 的观点是，
32:07
no, you don't understand.
不，你不明白。
32:08
If we stop doing this, China wins.
如果我们停止这么做，中国就赢了。
32:10
China takes control of this technology.
中国正在掌控这项技术。
32:12
They are not afraid
他们不怕
32:13
and they are not slowing down.
而且他们也没有慢下来。
32:15
And I think that's the strongest argument actually
而我觉得，实际上，最有力的论据
32:17
against the AI Doomer narrative
是反对 AI Doomer 叙事的
32:19
is that people out here in Asia,
就是亚洲这边的人，
32:21
not just China, but Japan and Korea, Singapore,
不只是中国，还有日本、韩国、新加坡，
32:24
they don't believe this at all.
他们根本不信这套。
32:26
Yeah, they just do not believe this.
是啊，他们就是不相信这个。
32:28
And you don't hear a lot of Doomerists.
而且你也不太会听到很多 Doomerists 的声音。
32:30
I never get AI risk questions out here
我在这边从来没被问到 AI risk 的问题
32:33
and US is the most common thing that I'm asked.
而我最常被问到的就是 US。
32:35
So to some people,
所以对一些人来说，
32:36
it looks like kind of a cultural hysteria,
这看起来有点像一种文化歇斯底里，
32:38
almost like a moral panic.
几乎像是一场 moral panic。
32:40
Yeah.
是啊。
32:41
All right, Steven,
好的，Steven，
32:42
thank you so much for joining us.
非常感谢你加入我们。
32:43
This has been a really enlightening
这真的是一场特别有启发性
32:45
and elucidating conversation.
也让人豁然开朗的对话。
32:46
I really appreciate you making the time
我真的很感谢你抽出时间
32:48
at 3.30 in the morning in Singapore
在新加坡凌晨3:30
32:50
from your hotel room.
从你的酒店房间里。
32:51
My focus, but yeah,
我的重点，不过没错，
32:53
the book is the thinking machine.
这本书就是 The Thinking Machine。
32:55
It's a great read if you're at all interested
如果你对 AI 时代最重要、现在也算是最受关注的人物之一哪怕只是有点兴趣，那这本书都很值得一读。
32:57
in one of the most important
我也很期待读到你更多关于这方面的报道。
32:59
and now sort of most talked about figures
非常感谢。
33:02
in the AI era.
经营企业就意味着要跟上最新科技。
33:04
And I look forward to reading more of your reporting on this.
33:07
Thank you so much.
33:19
Running a business means keeping pace with the latest tech.
33:22
You put a lot into building your enterprise software stack
你在搭建 enterprise software stack 上投入了很多
33:25
and scrapping it to integrate AI
而为了集成 AI 就把它整个废弃掉
33:27
is out of the question.
是完全不可能的。
33:29
That's why IBM technology works with all the apps,
所以 IBM 的技术能兼容所有 apps、
33:32
data, and models unique.
以及独特的数据和 models。
33:35
It's another way IBM helps you build
这是 IBM 帮你构建的另一种方式
33:36
on the technology you rely on.
基于你所依赖的技术。
33:39
Let's create smarter business.
让我们打造更智能的业务。
33:41
IBM.
IBM。
33:42
Visit IBM.com to learn more.
访问 IBM.com 了解更多。
33:48
Stripe is built for whatever comes next.
Stripe 为接下来的一切而打造。
33:50
With Stripe Billing,
使用 Stripe Billing，
33:51
you can easily test and iterate subscriptions,
你可以轻松测试并迭代订阅服务，
33:54
launch new usage based and hybrid pricing models
推出新的 usage based 和 hybrid pricing models
33:57
and automate invoicing.
并实现开票自动化。
33:58
Stripe Billing supports whatever business model
Stripe Billing 支持任何商业模式
34:01
you want to launch next.
你接下来想推出的。
34:02
And Stripe powers all the Forbes AI50
而 Stripe 为所有 Forbes AI50 提供支持
34:05
who have monetized.
这些公司都已经实现变现。
34:06
Learn how you can power any business model
了解如何为任何商业模式提供支持
34:08
at Stripe.com slash billing.
在 Stripe.com/billing。
34:11
Your business is built for something bigger.
你的企业是为更大的目标而建的。
34:14
That's why FM brings together engineering expertise.
所以 FM 汇聚了工程专业能力。
34:18
AI powered by FM-collected data
AI 由 FM 收集的数据驱动
34:20
and trusted partnership to help you reduce risk
以及值得信赖的合作伙伴关系，帮你降低风险
34:23
before disruption.
在 disruption 发生之前。
34:25
FM helps protect what makes your business possible
FM 帮助守护让你的业务得以运转的一切
34:28
so you can focus on what matters most
让你能专注于最重要的事
34:31
and progress with confidence.
并自信地向前推进。
34:34
FM, protect your purpose.
FM，守护你的使命。
34:38
Visit FM.com forward slash protect your purpose.
访问 FM.com/protect-your-purpose。
34:43
This episode of Hard Fork was produced by Whitney Jones
本集 Hard Fork 由 Whitney Jones 制作。
34:46
and Sawyer Rokay and edited by Viren Povic.
以及 Sawyer Rokay，剪辑由 Viren Povic 负责。
34:49
With additional editorial support
额外的编辑支持来自
34:50
from Brendan Klingkenberg, Lisa Tobin, and Brooke Mentors,
Brendan Klingkenberg、Lisa Tobin 和 Brooke Mentors，
34:53
we were fact-checked by Will Peishel
事实核查由 Will Peishel 负责，
34:55
and engineered by Chris Wood, original music by
音频工程由 Chris Wood 负责，原创音乐由
34:58
Marion Luzano, Rowan Nemisto, and Dan Powell.
Marion Luzano、Rowan Nemisto 和 Dan Powell 负责。
35:02
Additional video production by Chris Schott.
额外的视频制作由 Chris Schott 负责。
35:04
You can watch this full episode on YouTube
你可以在 YouTube 上观看这整期节目。
35:06
at youtube.com slash Hard Fork.
在 youtube.com 斜杠 Hard Fork。
35:09
Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Jessica Testa,
特别感谢 Sam Dolnick、Jessica Testa、
35:11
Pooing Tam, Madi Masiello, Zach Caldwell,
Pooing Tam、Madi Masiello、Zach Caldwell、
35:14
Bernard Garcia, Chris Moore, Thomas Trudeau,
Bernard Garcia、Chris Moore、Thomas Trudeau、
35:17
Samantha Winter, and Dahlia Hadad.
Samantha Winter 和 Dahlia Hadad。
35:20
We love to hear from our audience.
我们很喜欢听到听众的反馈。
35:22
If you have any questions or comments
如果你有任何问题或评论，
35:24
or want to give us a piece of your mind,
或者想对我们说说你的真实想法，
35:25
find us at New York Times.com slash Hard Fork.
可以在 New York Times.com/hard fork 找到我们。
35:28
You can also email us, Hard Fork,
你也可以给我们发邮件，Hard Fork，
35:30
at New York Times.com.
邮箱是 New York Times.com。
35:44
This podcast is supported by Viking, committed
本播客由 Viking 赞助，Viking 致力于
35:47
to exploring the world in comfort.
以舒适的方式探索世界。
35:49
Discover the heart of Europe by River
乘河轮探索欧洲的中心地带，
35:51
on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service,
乘坐优雅的 Viking 长船，享受贴心服务、
35:54
destination focused dining, and cultural enrichment,
以目的地为核心的餐饮，以及文化熏陶，
35:57
onboard, and on shore.
无论是在船上还是岸上。
35:59
And every Viking voyage is all inclusive
而且每一次 Viking 航程都是一价全包的
36:02
with no children and no casinos.
不接待儿童，也没有赌场。
36:04
Learn more at Viking.com.
欲了解更多，请访问 Viking.com。