Hard Fork
Jensen Huang Is Out at Nvidia
00:0000:39:22
00:01
Your team is on a deadline, but moving all your enterprise data will take time your business simply doesn't have.
你们的团队正赶着截止日期，但迁移所有企业数据要花的时间，你们的业务根本等不起。
00:08
IBM Technology lets AI work with your data where it already lives,
IBM Technology 让 AI 就在你数据原本所在的地方处理数据，
00:13
with an open hybrid cloud approach designed to build on your existing investments.
采用开放的 hybrid cloud 方案，旨在依托你现有的投资继续构建。
00:18
It's another way IBM helps you put your data to work.
这是 IBM 帮你把数据用起来的另一种方式。
00:21
Let's create smarter business.
让我们一起打造更智能的业务。
00:24
IBM. Visit IBM.com to learn more.
IBM。访问 IBM.com 了解更多。
00:35
Jensen Wong is no longer the CEO of NVIDIA.
Jensen Wong 不再是 NVIDIA 的 CEO 了。
00:39
I don't usually stay up past midnight trying to ascertain the fate of chip company CEOs,
我一般不会为了搞清楚芯片公司 CEO 们的命运而熬到半夜，
00:44
but that's what I did last night.
但昨晚我确实这么干了。
00:46
Because NVIDIA is not a normal company and Jensen Wong is not a normal CEO.
因为NVIDIA不是一家普通的公司，Jensen Wong也不是一个普通的CEO。
00:50
In a huge surprise this morning, Wong announced his resignation after an emergency meeting of NVIDIA's board,
今天早上爆出个大意外，Wong在NVIDIA董事会紧急会议后宣布辞职，
00:55
called after Wong admitted to an affair with a woman alleged to be a Chinese spy.
这场会议是在Wong承认跟一名据称是中国间谍的女性有婚外情之后召开的。
01:00
In a lot of circumstances that would be enough, but every good spy story needs a twist,
在很多情况下，这已经够了，但每个精彩的间谍故事都需要一个反转，
01:05
and the Wong saga already has several.
而Wong这桩风波已经有好几个反转了。
01:08
Just last night the Times reported that Wong had also been carrying on an affair with one of his direct reports,
就在昨晚，Times报道说Wong还一直和一名直接下属搞婚外情，
01:13
another executive at NVIDIA, and the Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik and Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent
NVIDIA的另一位高管，以及商务部长Howard Lutnik和财政部长Scott Bessent
01:19
had a direct confrontation over mega speed, the Singaporean company at the heart of the Wong affair,
围绕 Mega Speed 发生了直接对峙，而这家新加坡公司正是 Wong 事件的核心，
01:24
as the Trump administration debated what to do.
就在 Trump 政府争论该怎么做的时候。
01:26
There's no question in my mind that this is the biggest tech news of the year.
在我看来，这毫无疑问是今年最大的科技新闻。
01:30
Wong is one of the towering figures and big personalities of the AI boom.
Wong 是 AI 热潮中的重量级人物之一，也是个性非常鲜明的大人物之一。
01:34
He's the co-founder and leader of NVIDIA, the company at the center of this strange new world we're living in.
他是 NVIDIA 的联合创始人兼掌门人，而这家公司正处在我们如今身处的这个奇特新世界的中心。
01:40
He's maybe the most prominent AI optimist and a strong advocate of loosening restrictions on chip sales to China.
他可能是最知名的 AI 乐观派，也是放松对华芯片销售限制的坚定倡导者。
01:46
He's a singularly powerful CEO who's also made a lot of people very, very rich.
他是一位极其强势的 CEO，也让很多人变得非常非常富有。
01:52
All of which is why this story is so shocking and why we have so many questions.
所有这一切正是为什么这个故事如此令人震惊，也是为什么我们有这么多疑问。
01:56
How could the judgment of someone so powerful have been so bad?
一个如此有权势的人，判断力怎么会差到这个地步？
02:00
Why didn't the White House do anything if a major American CEO was involved in the Chinese spy?
如果一位美国大公司的CEO跟那个中国间谍有牵连，White House为什么什么都没做？
02:05
And maybe most importantly, what happens now?
而且也许最重要的是，现在会发生什么？
02:08
The AI sector has lost the hands-on leader of its Linchpin company.
AI行业失去了其Linchpin公司那位亲力亲为的领导者。
02:12
The letter-ripped AI optimists lost their loudest voice.
被信件撕碎的AI乐观派失去了他们最响亮的声音。
02:16
NVIDIA shareholders have lost many millions of dollars of value,
NVIDIA股东已经损失了数百万美元的价值，
02:19
and all this is happening just one week before the first frontier lab goes public.
而这一切就发生在第一家frontier lab上市的一周前。
02:24
What could go wrong?
02:26
In Max Read, this is hard for it.
在 Max Read 看来，这对它来说很难。
02:34
Running a business means keeping pace with the latest tech.
经营企业意味着要跟上最新技术。
02:37
You put a lot into building your enterprise software stack
你在构建 enterprise software stack 上投入了很多，
02:40
and scrapping it to integrate AI is out of the question.
而为了集成 AI 就把它废弃，这根本不可能。
02:44
That's why IBM technology works with all the apps, data and models unique.
这就是为什么 IBM 技术能配合所有独特的 apps、data 和 models 工作。
02:50
It's another way IBM helps you build on the technology you rely on.
这是 IBM 帮助你基于自己所依赖的技术继续构建的另一种方式。
02:54
Let's create smarter business.
让我们一起打造更智能的业务。
02:56
IBM. Visit IBM.com to learn more.
IBM。访问 IBM.com 了解更多。
03:02
Stripe is built for whatever comes next.
Stripe 就是为接下来的一切而打造的。
03:05
With Stripe Billing, you can easily test and iterate subscriptions,
用 Stripe Billing，你可以轻松测试和迭代订阅方案，
03:08
launch new usage-based and hybrid pricing models,
推出新的 usage-based 和 hybrid 定价模式，
03:11
and automate invoicing.
并实现开票自动化。
03:13
Stripe Billing supports whatever business model you want to launch next,
Stripe Billing 支持你接下来想推出的任何业务模式，
03:16
and Stripe powers all the Forbes AI50 who have monetized.
而 Stripe 为 Forbes AI50 中所有已经实现变现的公司提供支持。
03:20
Learn how you can power any business model at Stripe.com slash billing.
了解如何支持任何业务模式，请访问 Stripe.com/billing。
03:25
Your business is built for something bigger.
你的业务，是为更大的目标而打造的。
03:28
That's why FM brings together engineering expertise.
所以 FM 汇聚工程专业能力。
03:32
AI powered by FM-collected data
由 FM 收集的数据驱动的 AI
03:35
and trusted partnership to help you reduce risk before disruption.
以及值得信赖的合作伙伴关系，帮你在业务中断前降低风险。
03:39
FM helps protect what makes your business possible
FM 帮助保护让你的业务得以运转的一切
03:43
so you can focus on what matters most
让你能专注于最重要的事
03:46
and progress with confidence.
并满怀信心地向前迈进。
03:48
FM, protect your purpose.
FM，守护你的使命。
03:52
Visit FM.com forward slash protect your purpose.
访问 FM.com 斜杠 protect your purpose。
03:55
Hello, and welcome to the first hard fork
大家好，欢迎来到后 Gensen Wong 时代的首期 Hard Fork，在这样一个重大时刻。
04:00
from the post-Gensen Wong era for a momentous occasion like this.
我们有一个超强的嘉宾阵容。
04:04
We've got a killer panel.
我们有科技记者 Ryan Mack，他刚刚独家爆料称 Gensen Wong 与 NVIDIA 的一名下属有婚外情。
04:06
We have technology reporter Ryan Mack who just broke the story
我们还有记者 Anna Swanson，她这一周一直在全面报道这件事，独家新闻多到数不过来。
04:09
that Gensen Wong was having in a fair with one of his reports at NVIDIA.
另外，我们再次从新加坡连线到特约撰稿人
04:12
We've got reporter Anna Swanson who's been breaking news all across this story
04:15
for a week whose scoops are too numerous to mention.
04:18
And once again, from Singapore, we're joined by contributing writer
04:21
for the New York Times' opinion, Stephen Whitt, author of the thinking machine,
《纽约时报》观点版，Stephen Whitt，《The Thinking Machine》的作者，
04:23
a biography of Wong in NVIDIA. Welcome to Hard Fork, everybody.
一本关于 Wong 在 NVIDIA 的传记。欢迎来到 Hard Fork，各位。
04:27
Thank you. Thanks for having us.
谢谢。谢谢你们邀请我们。
04:28
Yeah, so we're recording this around 10 a.m. here in New York City.
对，我们现在是在纽约市这边录，大概上午 10 点。
04:33
It's been around an hour since we first learned the news
距离我们第一次得知这个消息，大概已经过去一个小时了
04:37
that Gensen Wong had resigned as CEO of NVIDIA.
就是 Gensen Wong 已经辞去 NVIDIA 的 CEO 一职。
04:39
Ryan, what do we know about how this decision was made?
Ryan，关于这个决定是怎么做出的，我们目前知道些什么？
04:42
So this played out this last night in this morning.
这件事是在昨晚到今天早上这段时间发生的。
04:46
Last night we published a story about a second relationship
昨晚我们发了一篇报道，讲的是他还有第二段关系——他和 NVIDIA 的一位高管、医疗健康业务副总裁 Kimberly Powell 有婚外情。
04:50
that he had extramarital relationship with an executive at NVIDIA,
而且你知道，考虑到 Anna 和其他人早先关于他第一段关系的报道，Gensen 本来就已经有点摇摇欲坠了。
04:57
this vice president of healthcare, Kimberly Powell.
而那似乎又进一步推动了事情的发展。
05:01
And you know, Gensen was already kind of teetering
所以董事会开了会，你知道，今天早上开盘前，他们发布了公告：Gensen 辞职，事情就到了现在这一步。
05:05
given some of the early reporting from Anna and others about his first relationship.
05:11
And that kind of seemed to set the wheels in motion even more.
05:14
And so the board met, and you know, this morning before the market opened,
05:21
they put out the announcement, Gensen resigns, and here we are.
05:27
It seemed from where I was sitting like the board meeting was taking forever.
在我看来，那场董事会会议简直没完没了。
05:31
Like, you know, there was an announcement this was going to happen.
就，你知道的，之前有宣布说这件事要发生。
05:34
There was a sense that probably the outcome was that he was going to be forced out.
大家感觉结果很可能是他会被迫下台。
05:38
Stephen, what do you think the board's perspective on this was?
Stephen，你觉得董事会在这件事上的看法是什么？
05:42
Many people on the board are themselves NVIDIA billionaires.
董事会里很多人本身就是 NVIDIA 的亿万富翁。
05:46
I think there's four different members of the board who own more than a billion dollars in NVIDIA stock.
我想董事会有四位成员各自持有超过十亿美元的 NVIDIA 股票。
05:50
And they've never seen this company without Gensen.
而且他们从来没见过这家公司没有 Gensen 的样子。
05:53
Gensen is the only CEO that this company has ever had for over 33 years.
Gensen 是这家公司 33 年多来唯一一位 CEO。
05:58
Some of these guys have been with him for the very beginning of the very first day.
其中有些人从最开始的第一天就一直跟着他。
06:02
So it's very hard, I think, for them to let go of Gensen even when it's almost forced that they have to.
所以我觉得，对他们来说，要放手让 Gensen 离开是非常难的，即使这几乎已经是他们不得不做的。
06:09
I suspect that they were looking for some way not to do that, maybe.
我怀疑他们可能一直在找某种办法，好不去那么做。
06:13
You know, maybe you go to counseling, Gensen, maybe you step back for a little bit, and then maybe you come back a little while later.
你知道，也许你会去做做咨询，Gensen，也许你先退一步、暂时离开一阵，然后过一阵再回来。
06:18
But look, you know, the stock is down quite a lot already it went down today again.
但你看，股价已经跌了不少，今天又跌了。
06:22
That cost them, that cost the board members real money.
这让他们付出了代价，让董事会成员真金白银地损失了钱。
06:25
And so they're attempting to act in that not so much in the interests of morality or the interests of even good taste.
所以他们试图这么做，与其说是为了道德，或者甚至说是为了体面，不如说是为了 NVIDIA 股东的利益，而这确实是个艰难的决定。
06:32
But in the interests of NVIDIA shareholders, and that's a tough decision to make.
06:35
It's not clear this company is worth more with Gensen gone than it is with a very tarnished Gensen in charge.
这家公司是在 Gensen 离开后更值钱，还是在一个名声严重受损的 Gensen 掌舵下更值钱，目前并不清楚。
06:41
One aspect of this story that's been interesting is the extent to which the Trump administration has been aware of this affair.
这个故事里有一个挺有意思的点，就是 Trump 政府到底在多大程度上知道这件事。
06:49
And there seems to have been some internal conflict about it.
而且围绕这件事，内部似乎有过一些冲突。
06:52
I'm wondering if anything has changed this week within the White House and within the administration that would tip the scales against Gensen in a situation like this.
我在想，这周白宫和整个政府内部有没有什么变化，会在这样的局面下让天平对 Gensen 不利。
07:00
I definitely think there is this sense in Washington that the tide has kind of turned against Gensen Huang.
我确实觉得，华盛顿有这样一种感觉：风向已经有点转了，开始对 Gensen Huang 不利。
07:07
For a long time, you know, Gensen was at this very close friendship with President Trump that at least for Republicans made him hard to touch.
很长一段时间里，你知道，Gensen 和 Trump 总统关系非常亲密，这至少让共和党人很难动他。
07:18
That's something that wasn't there initially at the beginning of President Trump's second term, but something that the two men kind of cultivated and that grew over time.
这一点在 Trump 总统第二任期刚开始时并不存在，但后来被两个人慢慢培养起来，并随着时间不断发展。
07:29
And I think it became very difficult for a lot of people in the president's party to advocate for tougher restrictions on chip sales to China, just because they might go crosswise at that very close relationship.
而且我觉得，这让总统所属政党里的很多人很难去主张对中国芯片销售施加更严格的限制，因为这么做可能会跟那段非常亲密的关系起冲突。
07:47
But now that Gensen is on the outs, you really do see these much more kind of aggressive calls particularly from Congress.
但现在Gensen失势了，你真的会看到这些更加激进的呼声，尤其是来自国会的。
07:55
But also people in the administration about advancing chip restrictions, Elizabeth Warren today issuing a statement saying that Gensen's resignation doesn't absolve him or the company for any responsibility for putting national security at risk or potential violations of laws.
但政府内部也有人呼吁推进chip restrictions，Elizabeth Warren今天发表声明说，Gensen的辞职并不能免除他或公司对危及国家安全或潜在违法行为承担的任何责任。
08:14
So there really is this kind of sense that efforts are heating up in Washington to scrutinize the company's sales to China a lot more closely.
所以确实有一种感觉，华盛顿正在加大力度，更加密切地审查该公司对中国的销售。
08:25
I mean, you reported on a confrontation between Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik and Treasury Secretary Scott Besen.
我的意思是，你报道了商务部长Howard Lutnik和财政部长Scott Besen之间的对峙。
08:32
Can you walk us through that story a little bit and tell us what you think it means in a broader sense about what's happening inside the White House?
你能给我们稍微讲讲那个故事，并告诉我们你认为这在更广泛的意义上意味着白宫内部正在发生什么吗？
08:37
Yeah, absolutely. So the thing to know is that the Commerce Department is responsible for American technology export restrictions.
是的，当然。所以需要知道的是，商务部负责美国的技术export restrictions。
08:45
And so it plays this really important role in setting the boundaries kind of of Nvidia's global business, how much they've been able to sell to China in recent years.
所以它在设定Nvidia全球业务的边界方面扮演着非常重要的角色，比如近年来他们能向中国销售多少。
08:55
And so President Trump, you know, has obviously grown closer with Gensen Huang.
所以你知道，Trump总统显然与Gensen Huang走得更近了。
09:00
Gensen Huang is also cultivated a closer friendship with Howard Lutnik, the Secretary of Commerce.
Gensen Huang 还跟商务部长 Howard Lutnik 建立起了更近的友谊。
09:07
And increasingly in internal discussions, Howard Lutnik has been seen as kind of the person pushing back or delaying various export control measures, whether it's putting mega speed on the entity list to kind of trade Blacklist or broader restrictions that would stop Chinese companies from remotely dialing into the market.
而且在内部讨论里，Howard Lutnik 越来越被看成是那个在抵制或拖延各种出口管制措施的人——不管是把 mega speed 列入 entity list，算是某种贸易 Blacklist，还是范围更广、会阻止中国公司远程接入市场的限制。
09:30
And so there's an awful lot of finger pointing going on right now in this situation, but a lot of those fingers are pointed at Howard Lutnik.
所以现在这个局面里，大家互相指责得厉害，但很多矛头都指向 Howard Lutnik。
09:41
And it remains to be seen kind of how that evolves for the Commerce Department.
至于 Commerce Department 这边会怎么演变，还不好说。
09:46
Is there some fallout in terms of personnel there too, or maybe they start to move much more aggressively on advancing some of the rules that people have been asking for?
那边在人事上会不会也有什么连带影响，或者他们会不会开始在推进大家一直要求的那些规则上动作激进得多？
09:57
Ryan, I want to turn to the story that you reported out yesterday.
Ryan，我想转到你昨天报道的那件事。
10:01
So we're recording this on Thursday morning on Wednesday afternoon, sort of toward the end of the day around 5 p.m.
我们是在周四早上录这期；周三下午，差不多是当天快结束的时候，大概下午5点。
10:06
Times reported that Huang had in addition to the affair with the CEO of mega speed, Alice Wong, who's allegedly a Chinese spy.
Times 报道说，Huang 除了和 mega speed 的 CEO Alice Wong 有婚外情之外——Alice Wong 据称是中国间谍。
10:14
He was also having an affair with an Nvidia executive who reports to him.
他还与一位向他汇报的 Nvidia 高管有婚外情。
10:18
Ryan, what can you tell us about how you came across this story? I understand it started with a tip.
Ryan，你能跟我们说说你是怎么发现这条新闻的吗？我了解到，这事最初是从一条爆料开始的。
10:22
Yeah, we had been reporting on it for a couple weeks, kind of on this kind of separate reporting line to the mega speed story.
是的，我们之前已经报道了几周，算是跟 mega speed story 分开的一条报道线。
10:33
And you know, it kind of picked up steam in the last couple days, obviously with everything playing out.
而且你知道，过去几天它开始发酵，很明显，随着事情一步步展开。
10:41
You know, when I think there's this drum beat of stories that happens, what happens as reporters, you get more and more people getting the confidence to talk.
你知道，我觉得报道就是会有这种一波接一波的鼓点，作为记者，会发生的是，越来越多人有了信心开口。
10:48
And so we had a few more people reaching out, some people that maybe didn't want to talk initially, come back to us and say, hey, actually, I do know about this thing.
所以又有几个人主动联系我们，有些人一开始可能不想说，后来回来找我们说，嘿，其实我确实知道这件事。
10:58
And you know, we got to a point where we're confident in our reporting and confident in the original tip that Jensen had this affair with this vice president, Kimberly Powell, who oversaw healthcare at the company.
然后你知道，我们到了这样一个阶段：我们对我们的报道有信心，也对最初的线报有信心——Jensen 与这位副总裁 Kimberly Powell 有婚外情，她负责公司的医疗健康业务。
11:11
Kimberly Powell has been at the company since 2008. She has kind of worked her way up.
Kimberly Powell 从 2008 年起就在公司了。她算是一路做上来的。
11:17
Through the healthcare kind of initiatives at the company to become this quite powerful executive in her own right at the company.
她通过公司里医疗健康类的一些项目，凭自身能力成了公司里相当有权势的高管。
11:26
She gives talks about applying the company's AI products to health and in science.
她会做演讲，谈如何把公司的 AI 产品应用到医疗健康和科学领域。
11:33
She's often by Jensen's side at big events. We understand them to have traveled together around the world.
她经常在大型活动上出现在 Jensen 身边。
11:41
And this is something that had been talked about for a long time within the company, you know, people raise eyebrows at this kind of relationship.
据我们了解，他们一起周游过世界。
11:50
And, you know, we got it to a point yesterday where we're comfortable and publishing it. And, you know, we did.
而且，这在公司内部已经被人议论很久了，你知道，大家对这种关系会侧目。
11:55
Stephen, was this second wave of the story surprising to you with somebody who's been reporting on long and Nvidia for a long time now?
而且，你知道，昨天我们已经把它推进到一个可以放心发布的地步。
12:02
No, not at all.
而且，你知道，我们确实这么做了。
12:04
I mean, in fact, I had been hearing things all summer about this. It was very hard to prove.
Stephen，作为一个长期报道 long 和 Nvidia 的人，这第二波报道会让你意外吗？
12:07
You know, for a long time, people didn't didn't want to talk.
你知道，很长一段时间里，人们都不愿意谈。
12:11
Ultimately, it took, you know, well, excellent reporters at the times, of course, who probably will want to appeal it's there for this one.
最终，你知道，还是得靠 Times 那些优秀的记者，当然，他们可能还想就这件事提出上诉，这个案子确实有可上诉的地方。
12:18
But especially the kind of classified intelligence, right? That's what it took to pierce the veil here.
但尤其是那种机密情报，对吧？要揭开这层面纱，靠的就是这个。
12:25
You know, I had been hearing things all summer. I've been getting some tips. They weren't even about either one of these women.
你知道，整个夏天我都在听到一些风声。我也收到了一些线报。而且这些甚至都不是关于这两位女性中的任何一位。
12:30
I think that's ultimately what probably forced the board's hand was the continuation that this would probably get worse and worse, the longer that Jensen stuck around.
我觉得最终可能迫使董事会不得不行动的，是这件事很可能还会继续：Jensen 待得越久，情况大概就会越来越糟。
12:42
You know, it must have been very hard for them to get rid of him ultimately. And perhaps he really did just resign, I guess we'll see.
你知道，最终要把他赶走，对他们来说肯定非常难。也许他真的就是自己辞职了，我想我们之后会知道。
12:49
Yeah. Ryan, there's a specific detail I want to ask you about this story.
对。Ryan，关于这篇报道，有个具体细节我想问你。
12:53
I'm going to just going to read it. It says, when reached by phone Wednesday and asked about his relationship with Ms. Powell, Mr. Wong said, I don't think you should be talking to me directly. He then hung up.
我干脆直接读一下。上面说，周三有人打电话联系到 Mr. Wong，问到他跟 Ms. Powell 的关系时，他说：“我觉得你不应该直接跟我谈。”然后他就挂断了。
13:02
I have to ask, why is the CEO of NVIDIA in the middle of probably the worst week of his life picking up the phone at all?
我得问一句，NVIDIA 的 CEO 在他大概人生中最糟糕的一周里，到底为什么还会接电话？
13:09
Good question. I'm not going to take credit for that one. Trip is the one that Tripp Michael, our colleague who's been doing amazing reporting made that call.
好问题。这个功劳我不揽。电话是 Trip 打的——就是 Tripp Michael，我们那位一直做出色报道的同事，是他打的。
13:17
And frankly, when he told us what happened, we were stunned. I mean, I honestly don't know why he picked the phone, why he even said anything.
说实话，他告诉我们发生了什么的时候，我们都惊呆了。我是说，我真的不知道他为什么会接电话，为什么还会说任何话。
13:27
But, you know, as reporters, we have to put these tough questions in front of the people we're going to report on.
但你知道，作为记者，我们得把这些尖锐的问题摆到我们要报道的人面前。
13:32
And so, just kind of doing our due diligence in that process, he made that call.
所以，也就是在那个过程中做我们该做的尽职调查，他打了那通电话。
13:37
And like most calls and most email reach outs, we expected, you know, they're not to say anything or a press person to come back to us.
而且跟大多数电话和大多数邮件联系一样，我们预期，你知道，他们不会说什么，或者会有公关人员回复我们。
13:44
In this case, he picked up so it was, yeah, just kind of an insane moment in this very bizarre and upside down story.
但这次，他接了，所以是，嗯，在这个非常离奇、彻底颠倒的故事里，这真是个疯狂的瞬间。
13:53
I want to ask you about another detail. The time story included a report that they were at a conference together.
我想再问你一个细节。Time 的报道里提到，他们一起参加了一个会议。
13:59
And a bystander saw them and I'm quoting being affectionate and documented it on their phone.
有个路人看到了他们，原话是，当时很亲密，还用手机拍了下来。
14:04
So, it seems like a lot of people were around. There was a kind of maybe an understanding or a sense that the, if I was being carried out in view of other NVIDIA executives,
所以，看起来周围有很多人。当时大概有一种理解，或者说一种感觉，就是，如果我被抬出去时被其他 NVIDIA 高管看到，
14:14
and employees. You know, this seems to comport with what Stephen was saying before about they're having been tips or ideas.
以及员工。你知道，这似乎和 Stephen 之前说的相吻合，说之前有过一些线索或想法。
14:22
Was that your sense, too, Ryan?
Ryan，你也是这种感觉吗？
14:24
I think there were just a lot of suspicions out there. And yeah, the anecdote that's in our story came from GTC, this NVIDIA developer conference that happens every year.
我觉得外面本来就有很多猜疑。对，我们报道里的那个轶事来自 GTC，就是 NVIDIA 每年都会办的开发者大会。
14:33
This year was in San Jose. Yeah, they were, I don't believe they thought they were in a place that could be seen.
今年是在 San Jose。对，他们，我不认为他们觉得自己所在的位置会被人看见。
14:40
But someone did take out their camera and, you know, and capture some of that. And as we understand it, the security team then sequestered them in that process.
但确实有人掏出相机，你知道，拍下了一些内容。而据我们了解，安保团队随后在这一过程中把他们隔离了起来。
14:53
And it was kind of a surreal anecdote for us to hear. And something we definitely fact checked along the way because it was just so, you know, bizarre to us.
对我们来说，听到这个轶事有种超现实感。而且这也是我们过程中确实核实过的内容，因为它对我们来说就是太，你知道，太怪异了。
15:04
Okay, so about an hour after this story breaks, the journal reports that NVIDIA is getting ready to oust Jensen.
好，所以这个消息爆出大约一小时后，这家期刊报道称，NVIDIA正准备把Jensen赶下台。
15:13
Does that mean it's the second relationship that did him in? Stephen, what do you know about this?
那这是否意味着，是第二段关系把他搞垮了？Stephen，你对这事知道些什么？
15:18
You know, in my interviews with him, Jensen went to such great lengths to present himself as a family man.
你知道，在我对他的采访里，Jensen费了很大劲把自己塑造成一个顾家男人。
15:24
It was something he really, really emphasized. He talked about his wife all the time, almost every time I talked to him, he started talking about his wife.
这一点他真的、真的特别强调。他总在聊他的妻子，几乎每次我跟他说话，他都会开始谈起他妻子。
15:31
The sacrifices she had made to make NVIDIA possible. She stepped away from her own career to raise her kids and then bringing his own kids into the company.
她为了成就NVIDIA所做出的牺牲。她放弃了自己的事业去抚养孩子，后来又把他的孩子带进公司。
15:41
Even as he's openly consorting with another executive, it's almost hard to imagine that that would happen.
即便他公开和另一位高管厮混，也很难想象这种事会发生。
15:47
In some ways, it's just a classic tale of masculine, hubris and overconfidence, right. But I think probably the board when they started to put all this together was like, there's such a severe error.
在某些方面，这就是一个典型的大男子主义傲慢和过度自信的故事，对吧。但我觉得，董事会大概在开始把这些都拼起来时，就觉得：这里有个如此严重的错误。
16:01
The judgment here that it calls everything else into question.
这里的判断，会让其他一切都被打上问号。
16:06
Yeah, if I can just jump in on something Stephen and Ryan are saying, you know, I've had very limited interactions with Jensen Huang.
嗯，如果我能就 Stephen 和 Ryan 说的内容插一句，你知道，我和 Jensen Huang 的互动非常有限。
16:14
But I always got the feeling that he had created this incredible company just through sheer force of will.
但我一直有种感觉：他完全是靠意志力硬生生打造出了这家了不起的公司。
16:21
I mean, this is his personal project that he has created over three decades.
我是说，这是他过去三十多年亲手做出来的个人项目。
16:27
It's something that has just transformed global technology in the economy.
它确实改变了全球科技和经济。
16:32
He just seems like the person who kind of wills things into being.
他看起来就是那种能靠意志让事情成真的人。
16:39
That's always the feeling I got with his attitude toward, for example, chip smuggling concerns.
比如面对 chip smuggling 相关担忧时，他的态度给我的感觉一直就是这样。
16:47
He has very consistently denied over years that chip smuggling is just not occurring.
多年来，他一直非常一致地否认 chip smuggling，称它根本没有发生。
16:57
The face of big smuggling bust by the US government or reporting that I and others had carried out to consistently denied that it was happening.
面对 US government 的大型走私查获行动，或者我和其他人做过的报道，他一直都在否认这件事在发生。
17:09
I think that just might be one of his strengths, but also his weaknesses that if I were to analyze the man that he sees the world in the way that he would like it to be.
我觉得这也许正是他的优势之一，但也是他的弱点，如果我要分析这个人的话，他看世界的方式是他希望世界所是的样子。
17:27
And, you know, that has largely been a success for him, but in this episode, maybe it was his downfall.
而且，你知道，这在很大程度上对他来说是成功的，但在这一集里，也许这成了他的败笔。
17:33
I'd also say, you know, this is someone who hasn't been viewed as kind of this rock star CEO until very recently.
我还想说，你知道，这个人直到最近才被看作是那种摇滚明星式的CEO。
17:39
Of course, he's run his company for more than 30 years, but this kind of global fame he's experiencing is relatively new.
当然，他经营公司已经超过30年了，但他现在经历的这种全球知名度相对来说还是新的。
17:47
And I guess the extent of Nvidia to this kind of stratosphere is relatively new.
而且我猜，Nvidia 达到这种高度相对来说也是新的。
17:53
And, you know, as reporters, we see what we see his public persona changed, you know, to a point where he is famously signed someone's chest, a woman, a female fan's chest at an event he was pictured with the CEO of mega speed openly.
而且，你知道，作为记者，我们看到他的公众形象变了，你知道，变到了这种地步：他在一次活动上出名地在一个女粉丝的胸口签名，还被拍到与 mega speed 的CEO公开同框。
18:11
And part of me thinks like, you know, if that's happening in front of us, like what's going on that we aren't seeing and now we're starting to see some of that reported out now.
而且我内心有一部分在想，你知道，如果那种事就发生在我们眼前，那还有什么是我们没看到的？而现在我们开始看到一些这方面的报道了。
18:22
I think also Jensen created a reality bubble around himself. He had inside the company, he was like, it was almost like a cult leader when he got up and talked.
我觉得 Jensen 也在自己周围制造了一个现实泡泡。
18:32
He was like a profit, but the thing was everything he said actually came true.
他就像个先知，但关键是，他说的一切居然都成真了。
18:37
And then when something he said came true, everybody in the room made a billion dollars.
然后只要他说的事一成真，屋里所有人都赚了十亿美元。
18:42
And so this created this, this, I think this thing that you couldn't even disagree with Jensen inside the company.
所以这就造成了，这个，这个，我觉得就是公司内部你根本没法不同意 Jensen 的局面。
18:49
He wouldn't let you anyway, just start screaming at you if you didn't agree with this point of view, you know, I disagree with Jensen once and it was like lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite.
反正他也不会让你不同意，你要是不认同这个观点，他直接冲你吼。你知道，我有一次不同意 Jensen，那感觉就像点着了炸药包的引线。
18:58
And when it went off, he just started screaming at me. I'm a journalist. I don't work for the company. Like there's nothing to be gained from with that.
等它炸了，他就开始冲我大吼。我是记者，我不在这家公司工作。就，这种事根本没什么好处。
19:05
But that indicated to me, like, oh, this guy has no breaks.
但这让我意识到，哦，这家伙完全没有刹车。
19:09
Like this guy, there's no one telling this guy you're acting out of turn here.
就像，这个人，没人会跟他说“你这样做越界了”。
19:13
You know, even as PR people, they were there and they just let him yell at me for 20 minutes.
你知道，连 PR 的人都在场，他们就让他冲我吼了 20 分钟。
19:19
There's no one around him saying Jensen really back in. He had no one like that in his life.
他身边没有人说Jensen真的回来了。他生活中没有这样的人。
19:24
I will say also just a little more than a week ago, Jensen did give an interview to Bloomberg in which he said that his interactions with the woman Alice Wong were, you know, just very normal and just usual operations.
我还想说，就在一个多星期前，Jensen确实接受了Bloomberg的采访，他在采访里说，他和那位叫Alice Wong的女人的互动，你知道，就是非常正常，就是很平常的日常往来。
19:37
Right. And then in a week, we saw that narrative changed just so dramatically.
对。然后一周之内，我们就看到那套说法变得如此戏剧性。
19:43
Yeah. I would say reading, yeah, reading the TV.
是啊。我会说，读，是啊，读电视。
19:46
I love it. I'm just sure I really love it when you guys are all talking.
我喜欢。我就是很确定，我真的很喜欢你们大家这么聊。
19:49
See later. I just reading the TV's with the statement they put out about the resignation.
等会儿看。我只是在看电视上他们关于辞职发布的声明。
19:56
I mean, they said glowing things about him or, you know, they give their, you know, nice things they said about him.
我是说，他们说了很多夸他的话，或者，你知道，他们给了他们，你知道，他们说了他不少好话。
20:01
But Jensen is not quoted in that anywhere. He doesn't give a statement.
但Jensen在那里面哪儿都没有被引用。他没有发表声明。
20:04
So that kind of feels very telling to me.
所以这对我来说挺能说明问题的。
20:09
This is a good place to pause. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to get into a little deeper.
这是个适合暂停一下的好时机。我们会短暂休息一下，回来之后会聊得更深入一些。
20:14
Your team is on a deadline, but moving all your enterprise data will take time your business simply doesn't have.
你的团队有截止日期，但迁移所有企业数据需要时间，而你的业务根本没有这些时间。
20:33
IBM technology lets AI work with your data where it already lives, with an open hybrid cloud approach designed to build on your existing investments.
IBM 的技术让 AI 能在数据原本所在的地方处理你的数据，采用 open hybrid cloud 方法，旨在基于你现有的投资来构建。
20:42
It's another way IBM helps you put your data to work.
这是 IBM 帮你让数据发挥作用的另一种方式。
20:47
Let's create smarter business. IBM.
让我们打造更智能的业务。IBM。
20:50
Visit IBM.com to learn more.
访问 IBM.com 了解更多。
20:55
Stripe is built for whatever comes next.
Stripe 是为应对接下来的一切而构建的。
20:58
With Stripe Billing, you can easily test and iterate subscriptions, launch new usage based and hybrid pricing models and automate invoicing.
使用 Stripe Billing，你可以轻松测试和迭代 subscriptions，推出新的 usage based 和 hybrid pricing 模型，并实现 invoicing 自动化。
21:06
Stripe Billing supports whatever business model you want to launch next and Stripe powers all the Forbes AI50 who have monetized.
Stripe Billing 支持你接下来想推出的任何商业模式，Stripe 也为所有已经变现的 Forbes AI50 提供支持。
21:12
Learn how you can power any business model at Stripe.com slash Billing.
访问 Stripe.com 斜杠 Billing，了解如何支持任何商业模式。
21:18
Your business is built for something bigger. That's why FM brings together engineering expertise.
你的企业生来就是为了成就更大的事。这就是 FM 汇聚工程专长的原因。
21:25
AI powered by FM collected data and trusted partnership to help you reduce risk before disruption.
由 FM 提供支持的 AI、收集的数据和可信赖的合作关系，帮助你在 disruption 前降低风险。
21:32
FM helps protect what makes your business possible so you can focus on what matters most and progress with confidence.
FM 帮助保护让你的企业得以运转的关键，让你能专注于最重要的事，并自信前行。
21:40
FM protect your purpose.
FM 守护你的使命。
21:45
Visit FM.com for slash protect your purpose.
访问 FM.com 斜杠 protect your purpose。
21:50
Welcome back. This is HardFork. I'm with Ryan Mack, Anna Swanson, and Steven Witt.
欢迎回来。这里是HardFork。和我一起的是Ryan Mack、Anna Swanson和Steven Witt。
21:54
And we're talking about Jensen Wands resignation from Invidia.
我们要聊的是Jensen Huang从Invidia辞职的事。
21:58
I mean, one of the reasons I've been waiting to see if Jensen could retain powers because it has felt as we've sort of talked about like the Trump administration has this vested interest in Invidia as a sort of Linchpin company for the stock market.
我是说，我一直等着看Jensen能不能保住权力，原因之一是我们之前聊过的，Trump政府似乎把Invidia当作股市的关键支柱公司，有既得利益在里面。
22:10
For the AI industry obviously as we've talked about Trump and Jensen have a have a friendship.
对AI行业来说显然也是如此，我们之前说过Trump和Jensen之间有交情。
22:16
And it felt maybe a little bit like at some point the Trump administration would put its finger on the scales or kind of swinging and continue to protect him seems like that didn't happen last night on it.
而且感觉可能在某个时候，Trump政府会出手干预或者施加影响，继续保护他，但昨晚似乎并没有发生。
22:26
Yeah, I'm not sure what conversations may have taken place if there were calls going back and forth. That was definitely something that you know we had been asking about and very curious about.
是啊，我不确定可能有过什么对话，有没有来回打电话。这确实是我们一直在问的，也非常好奇。
22:39
But yeah, it seems like President Trump's powers don't extend that far to save someone like Jensen Huang in this situation.
但没错，看起来Trump总统的权力也没大到能在这种情况下保住像Jensen Huang这样的人。
22:50
And we have to see whether this has an impact on US policy when it comes to Invidia.
我们还得看这会不会对美国在Invidia方面的政策产生影响。
22:57
Whether that remains more favorable, of course Invidia as you say is a very important part of the stock market.
至于这是否还会更有利，当然，正如你说的，Invidia 是股市里非常重要的一部分。
23:04
Really important to US data center construction, the American edge and AI.
对美国 data center 建设、美国的优势以及 AI 都真的很重要。
23:10
Just a you know, systemically important company at this point. So there's certainly a lot of motivation to keep them intact and doing well.
你知道，它现在就是一家 systemically important company。所以肯定有很大动力让它保持完整、继续表现良好。
23:22
But we'll have to see where it goes from here.
但接下来会怎么走，我们还得看看。
23:24
One more question along those lines. I'm wondering to what extent you think the midterm elections last week have freed up space sort of inside the White House or inside the sort of US politics.
顺着这个再问一个问题。我想知道，你觉得上周的中期选举在多大程度上给 White House 内部，或者算是给美国政治内部，腾出了空间。
23:34
In general, to allow sort of the the anti-Wong camp to sort of push against push against him and try and get him out of his out of place.
总的来说，算是让 anti-Wong 阵营能对他施压，并试着把他从他那个位置上弄走。
23:44
Yeah, it felt like I felt like that really did open the floodgates.
是啊，感觉上，我觉得那真的把闸门打开了。
23:47
And so another thing that Jensen did, you know he really he worked on cultivating very close ties with Trump.
所以 Jensen 做的另一件事，你知道，他真的在努力跟 Trump 建立非常紧密的关系。
23:56
But he kind of left the Democrats behind and you know a lot of people in Washington are second guessing that strategy.
但他有点把 Democrats 晾在一边了，你知道，Washington 很多人都在质疑这个策略。
24:02
For instance, there was one episode where Jensen went to meet to brief the Hill.
比如说，有一次 Jensen 去 Hill 见人做简报。
24:07
And he only met with Republican lawmakers, which a lot of people in Washington thought was fairly clumsy.
而且他只见了 Republican 的议员，Washington 很多人都觉得这挺笨拙的。
24:13
You know, I'm given that the expectation that things might turn over in two or four years, but certainly you know some of those relationships are time limited.
你知道，考虑到大家预期两到四年后局面可能会翻转，但当然，你知道，其中一些关系是有时限的。
24:23
A lot of more traditional CEOs certainly make an effort to reach out more to both sides of the aisle.
很多更传统的 CEO 肯定会努力多去接触两党两边。
24:28
And now you have Democrats coming back, I mean they have had to weigh this equation between sort of courting you know tech money that had flown over float over to Republicans or seizing on popular opinion, which is kind of more skeptical of data centers and tech CEOs and their relationships with Republicans and clearly Democrats have chosen to go in this more antagonistic route.
而现在 Democrats 又回来了，我是说，他们不得不在这个等式里权衡：是去拉拢那些已经流向 Republican 的 tech 资金，还是利用对 data centers、tech CEOs 以及他们和 Republican 的关系更怀疑的民意——显然 Democrats 选择了走更对抗的路线。
24:58
So when it comes to AI executives and Jensen Huang.
所以说到 AI 高管和 Jensen Huang。
25:03
And so there are several pieces of legislation being considered on the Hill now that would clamp down more on chip sales abroad in addition to the variety of you know data center kind of push back we've seen around the country.
所以现在 Hill 正在审议几项立法，这些立法会更严格地限制 chip 海外销售，再加上我们全国各地看到的各种对 data center 的反弹。
25:18
Yeah he also alienated a significant chunk of what I would call like the tech right you know like like Marco Rubio guys like Palmer lucky they didn't like the Jensen was selling chips to China, they thought that was not in the US is best interest.
是啊，他还疏远了一大票我会称之为 tech right 的人，你知道，像 Marco Rubio、Palmer Lucky 这些人，他们不喜欢 Jensen 往中国卖芯片，他们觉得那不符合美国的最佳利益。
25:33
So outside I mean Trump obviously was his ally, but you know he really alienated the Democrats.
所以对外来说，我是说 Trump 显然是他的盟友，但你知道，他真的把 Democrats 那边得罪惨了。
25:38
There were a lot of people on the right who weren't that happy with Jensen either.
右派里也有很多人对 Jensen 不太满意。
25:42
Yeah and let's talk about what what happens next and sort of what's going forward Steven let me ask you so we've been talking over and over again about this Jensen is the singular figure you know sort of across his whole company 60 direct reports.
是啊，我们来聊聊接下来会发生什么、往后的走向。Steven，我问你，我们一直在反复聊这个：Jensen 是个独一无二的人物，你知道，整个公司 60 个直接下属。
25:57
Does that mean that the board had never even they must have never really even thought about a succession plan or had they.
这是不是意味着董事会压根儿——他们肯定从来没真正考虑过继任计划，还是说其实考虑过？
26:04
I think the board had maybe considered a couple possible successors but Jensen almost deliberately never groomed a successor it's almost like asking well now that Michael Jordan's gone from the bulls like who do we replace him with.
我觉得董事会可能考虑过几个潜在的接班人，但 Jensen 几乎是有意地从不培养接班人。这几乎就像在问：好吧，现在 Michael Jordan 离开 Bulls 了，我们该用谁来替代他？
26:16
Like there's not an obvious candidate of anyone anywhere who can do what Jensen did he really was a dynamo in this way of force of nature who could see both see very deeply in the future of computer science and also you know be the very tough CEO screaming its suppliers on Taiwan.
就像哪儿都找不到一个明显人选能做 Jensen 做过的事。他真的是个能量爆棚的人，像一股自然之力，既能非常深刻地看到计算机科学的未来，又能——你知道——当一个极其强硬的 CEO，冲着台湾的供应商大吼大叫。
26:32
To get things delivered on time and he's also smoothing with customers and he's also got Trump on the phone it's unique to Jensen right it's incredible some of the stuff he was able to pull off.
为了让他们按时交付，他还能跟客户打圆场，还能让 Trump 接电话。这种本事只有 Jensen 有，对吧？他能搞成的有些事情真是不可思议。
26:43
So you can't really replace him you almost need three people to do the job that he did yeah I mean let's talk for a second and just like marvel at the significance of having one single person at the center of a company like this this is a $4 trillion company I mean you know at the time of recording.
所以你没法真正取代他，你几乎得三个人才能干完他一个人的活儿。对，我是说，咱们花点时间聊聊，感叹一下像这样的公司把一个人放在中心位置有多重要——这是一家市值 4 万亿美元的公司，你知道，在录制这期节目的时候。
26:59
The second most valuable company in the world behind Apple it controls something like 90% of the market for computer chips used in big AI projects I mean I just think it's worth.
它是全球市值第二高的公司，仅次于 Apple，控制着大概 90% 的用于大型 AI 项目的 computer chips 市场。我是说，我就觉得这值得提一下。
27:08
Ryan can you characterize the significance of this company and therefore the significance of Jensen Wong in his resignation here arguably the most important company for the whole global AI industry and Jensen Wong was the key man of that key company.
Ryan，你能不能讲一下这家公司有多重要，因此也讲一下 Jensen Wong 在他这次辞职这件事上有多重要？可以说，这是整个全球 AI 行业最重要的公司，而 Jensen Wong 又是这家关键公司的关键人物。
27:24
And so now that he has gone you know what comes next I think we're all wondering and that is kind of what's at stake here you know he is in many ways irreplaceable and the impacts of that will be felt on the global market you know for days if not weeks to come.
那现在他走了，你知道接下来会怎样，我想我们都在琢磨，而这大概就是这里的关键所在。你知道，他在很多方面都是不可替代的，而这件事的影响会在全球市场上持续显现，你知道，接下来几天，甚至几周都能感受到。
27:47
What do we know about Colette Cress so she was the CFO and is now the interim CEO that they just announced this morning Steven did you interview her for your book.
我们对 Colette Cress 了解多少？她之前是 CFO，现在成了他们今天早上刚宣布的 interim CEO。Steven，你为你的书采访过她吗？
27:56
You know I did not she was kind of declined to be interviewed a club is great from what I hear but she can only ever be a temporary or interim CEO and the reason for that is although she's a very good executive she is not a world class computer scientist.
你知道，我没有。她有点拒绝接受采访。我听说 a club 很棒，但她永远只能当个临时的或者 interim CEO，原因是，虽然她是很优秀的高管，但她不是 world-class 的 computer scientist。
28:13
She's a finance person and so if you're not a world class computer scientist over the long term you cannot be the CEO of NVIDIA or really any Microsoft company.
她是做 finance 的，所以如果你不是 world-class 的 computer scientist，长期来看你就没法当 NVIDIA 的 CEO，或者说任何 Microsoft 公司的 CEO。
28:23
The CEO of the company has to be an electrical engineer they have to understand computing from the level of the transistor scaling all the way up to the level of the data center.
这家公司的 CEO 必须是 electrical engineer，他们得理解 computing，从 transistor scaling 这一层一直到 data center 这一层。
28:34
And this was something the board really told me this is the reason they bet they believed in Jensen so much right from the beginning he actually didn't have that many business skills at first but he was a world class computer scientist and that was the bottleneck that was the thing that was hard to find.
而这是董事会真的告诉过我的事，这就是为什么他们从一开始就那么押注、那么相信 Jensen 的原因。他一开始其实并没有那么多商业技能，但他是世界级的计算机科学家，而那就是瓶颈，是那个很难找到的东西。
28:48
If you look at people like Lisa Sue the people who leave other competing microchip companies they also have this quality so you know there are other world class computer scientists inside NVIDIA in fact there's many of them but then that person also has to be like a great chief executive.
如果你看像 Lisa Sue 这样的人，那些离开其他竞争 microchip 公司的人，他们也有这种品质，所以你知道 NVIDIA 内部还有其他世界级计算机科学家，事实上有很多，但那个人同时也得像一位很出色的 CEO。
29:05
One name that came up a lot was a guy named Ian Buck I interviewed him he's like the smartest guy alive but he's never really dealt with customers he's never gotten on the phone and screened his suppliers in Taiwan to deliver things yesterday.
有一个名字经常被提到，叫 Ian Buck。我采访过他，他像是世上最聪明的人，但他其实从没真正处理过客户，从没打过电话去筛选他在台湾的供应商，让对方昨天就把东西交付。
29:18
So finding somebody who has all of these rare qualities and putting them together in one person it's really tough it's really hard to find that person.
所以，找到一个拥有所有这些稀有品质的人，并把这些品质集中在一个人身上，真的很难，真的很难找到那个人。
29:27
The board is going to have a hard time and impossible time honestly.
董事会会很难办，老实说，会是不可能完成的事。
29:30
I was also just doing some research and there's like kind of a press in for this Intel CEO Brian Krizantich stepped down in 2018 after having an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate at the company and up stepped the company CFO Bob Swan into the CEO role.
我也刚做了一些研究，关于 Intel CEO Brian Krizantich 有这么一则报道：他在 2018 年因与公司一名下属有不正当关系而卸任，随后公司 CFO Bob Swan 接任 CEO 职位。
29:49
He let he lasted less than three years you know he's out by 2021 and so yeah these these hard tech companies that need this kind of expertise.
他……他撑了不到三年，你知道，到 2021 年他就下台了。所以是啊，这些需要这种专业能力的硬科技公司。
29:59
You don't really find that from you know these financial experts.
你从这些金融专家身上，真的找不到那种东西。
30:03
Yeah on one question I have about Colette Cress is I mean she's the CFO surely she knew something about mega speed I have to imagine this is also on the on the minds of everybody in Washington right now.
对，关于 Colette Cress 我有个问题，我是说，她可是 CFO，肯定对 mega speed 知道点什么吧，我猜这也是现在 Washington 每个人都在琢磨的事。
30:17
Yeah I agree I think that is naturally where people's minds here will go you know how much.
是啊，我同意，我觉得这里的人自然而然就会往那方面想，你知道，会想到多少。
30:25
If anything did she know about the business with mega speed so again mega speed was accused of allegedly diverting chips into China the US government has been investigating it for that.
如果说她真知道点什么的话，她对 mega speed 那摊业务到底知道多少？再说一遍，mega speed 被指控涉嫌把 chips 转运到中国，美国政府一直在就这件事调查它。
30:39
It was also running you know what is now a legal business but setting up data centers in Southeast Asia that serve Chinese clients.
它还在经营，你知道，现在算是合法业务，就是在东南亚建 data centers，服务中国客户。
30:49
But the way that that business was set up you know it was just very obviously kind of this Chinese company in Singapore that quickly rebranded itself and started to buy massive amounts of chips.
但那项业务搭起来的方式，你知道，就非常明显是那种在新加坡的中国公司，很快给自己换了个牌子，然后开始大量买 chips。
31:03
We also know that Jensen Huang knew the woman that was leading the company at that time very you know very closely like raising a lot of questions about what his knowledge was of what the company was doing and how much he was potentially even involved in setting up this company mega speed which provides computing power to Ali Baba.
我们还知道，Jensen Huang 认识当时领导那家公司的那位女性，非常，你知道，非常熟，这就引出了很多问题：他到底知道那家公司在做什么，以及他有没有可能甚至参与到创办 mega speed 这家公司里，mega speed 是给 Ali Baba 提供 computing power 的。
31:25
So there's still a lot of questions about you know how far that inquiry will go the Department of Justice is carrying out a criminal investigation into mega speed right now.
所以还有很多问题，你知道，就是那个调查会走到哪一步，Department of Justice 现在正在对 mega speed 进行刑事调查。
31:35
I'd also point out that late last year around the time that a lot of this was like kind of coming to a head and video suddenly changed the way that they reported revenue.
我还想指出，去年年底左右，很多这些事情正有点到关键时刻的时候，video 突然改变了他们报告营收的方式。
31:47
To make it much more difficult to figure out how much of their revenue was coming from Singapore and Malaysia you know changing the way that they counted those customers globally in a way that was very very frustrating for us and other reporters trying to point to this you know just explosion and business in Singapore and Southeast Asia that was tied to China.
为了让别人更难弄清楚他们的收入有多少来自 Singapore 和 Malaysia，你知道，他们改变了在全球统计这些客户的方式，这让我们和其他想指出这一点的记者非常非常沮丧，你知道，就是想指出 Singapore 和 Southeast Asia 那种跟 China 相关的业务爆发。
32:09
And so you know that's something that the CFO probably would have been you know intimately involved with.
所以你知道，这大概是 CFO 会深度参与的事情。
32:15
Yeah well let's talk for a second about the sort of general aftermath of this decision I mean Ryan I think it's fair to say that the big thing on everyone's mind is is this the beginning of the end for the AI boom.
是啊，那我们先聊一下这个决定的大致后续影响。我是说，Ryan，我觉得可以这么说，大家心里最大的疑问是：这是不是 AI boom 走向终结的开始。
32:27
What are you expecting in terms of a larger response Silicon Valley in terms of you know AI in general the ontropic IPO is coming up next week.
你预期 Silicon Valley 会有什么更大层面的反应，你知道，就整体 AI 而言？ontropic 的 IPO 下周就要来了。
32:35
I mean is there is there a world where everything is totally fine and nothing happens is there a world where there's a big blow up and the stock market crashes.
我是说，有没有一种情况是一切都完全没事，什么都不会发生？有没有一种情况是出现大爆雷，然后股市崩盘？
32:44
Oh man I'm so bad with predictions.
天哪，我特别不擅长预测。
32:48
We won't hold you too.
我们不会让你兑现的。
32:52
This is not financial advice.
这不是财务建议。
32:55
It's so hard to say we're like in the hour two of this happening I mean we're having discussion earlier what like what is in video look like it looks like Jordan looks like the bulls without Jordan right.
现在真的很难说，我们才刚进入这件事的第二小时；我是说，我们之前还在讨论，Nvidia 现在看起来像什么，看起来像 Jordan，像没有 Jordan 的 Bulls，对吧。
33:06
Yeah I mean there's going to be downstream impacts for weeks if not months I mean you mentioned the ontropic IPO you know Nvidia supposed to invest in it already is an investor in a threat again is about to invest more you know there's Nvidia is involved in a lot of these kind of circular funding deals where not only supplies chips but you know financing to companies large and small across the AI and tech ecosystem.
对，我是说，接下来几周甚至几个月都会有下游影响；你提到了 ontropic 的 IPO，Nvidia 本应投资它，已经是投资者了，而且又要再投更多；Nvidia 参与了很多这种循环融资交易，不光供应芯片，还给 AI 和 tech 生态里大大小小的公司提供融资。
33:34
Does that continue can it continue without this kind of care charismatic figure in Jensen Huang calling the shots you know if it's a CFO type now leading the company will they become a little more cautious with their spending a little more cautious with the decision making.
这还会继续吗？没有 Jensen Huang 这种有魅力的核心人物来拍板，这还能继续吗？如果现在是一个 CFO 型的人来领导公司，他们会不会在花钱上更谨慎一点，在决策上更谨慎一点？
33:53
You know that's that's all going to play on the next couple again weeks and months and we'll see what happens.
你知道，这一切都会在未来几周甚至几个月里继续发酵，我们看看会发生什么。
33:59
We'll say one of Colette's rules was actually overseeing a number of these investments so she's pretty familiar with this kind of financing network that Nvidia built out.
可以说，Colette 的职责之一其实就是监督这些投资中的不少项目，所以她对 Nvidia 搭建出来的这种融资网络相当熟悉。
34:09
You know it's it's controversial what they've done and there does come times look like circular financing some of their customers have really taken on a lot of debt and anticipation of future buildouts down the road that may or may not occur and if those if those payments can't get made on the debt that could create a cascade of defaults.
你知道，他们做的事挺有争议的，有时候确实看起来像循环融资；他们的一些客户为了未来那些可能发生也可能不发生的 buildouts，真的背了很多债，如果这些债务还不上，就可能引发一连串违约。
34:28
Having said that Nvidia's competition is loving this you know broad calm is up today AMD is up today there's this whole ecosystem of essentially scavengers waiting to feed on Nvidia's corpse here I mean you know there's a lot of people who are happy today they won't tell you that they won't say that there's a lot of people in the microchip industry who see this as the opportunity that they've been waiting for.
话虽如此，Nvidia 的竞争对手可喜欢这个了；你知道，broad calm 今天涨了，AMD 今天也涨了；基本上就是整个生态里一群等着分食 Nvidia 尸体的食腐者；我是说，今天有很多人很高兴，他们不会告诉你，也不会说出来；microchip 行业里有很多人把这看成他们一直在等的机会。
34:57
For their whole lives you have Elon Musk out there saying he'd be proud to hire Jensen so it sounds like he has a landing he's got his Washington wizard yeah that's the that's what SpaceX is what Elon Elon has terrified right he's trying to build this chip manufacture within the US.
一辈子都在等这个机会；还有 Elon Musk 在外面说，他会很自豪地雇 Jensen，所以听起来他有落脚点了，他有他的 Washington wizard；对，这就是……这就是 SpaceX 是……Elon 一直很害怕的东西，对吧，他想在美国国内搞芯片制造。
35:14
It's a partnership between SpaceX and Tesla we'll see how long those companies stay separate from one another but you know he is looking to do that he's about to spend tens of billions of dollars on that project and who better to lead it.
这是SpaceX和Tesla之间的合作，我们会看看这两家公司还能各自独立多久，但你知道他正想这么做，他即将在这个项目上花上数百亿美元，还有谁更适合来领导它呢。
35:29
Ultimately the determinant of whether the succeeds or fails is not the chip companies they themselves are downstream of the frontier labs and to the extent that the frontier labs make products that people want to use or even have to use to stay productive
最终决定成败的，不是chip companies，它们自己就是frontier labs的下游；只要frontier labs做出的产品是人们想用的，甚至是人们为了保持生产力不得不用，或者并非如此，chips无论如何都会以某种方式供应给他们，这是我的感觉。不过我认为，如果AI让人失望，你知道，作为一个产品，如果AI最终变成一种昂贵又坏掉的玩具——有时候它看起来确实像那样——那它就行不通。
35:43
or don't the chips will the chips will be there to supply them one way or another is my is my feeling I think however if AI disappoints you know as a product if AI ends up being kind of an expensive and broken toy which it comes on sometimes seem like then it won't work.
对，我们之前大概已经聊过这个几次了，但我想知道，你对这次辞职在Washington高层引发的反应有什么看法，以及你认为政治层面接下来会怎么走。我是说，我们聊过听证会，很明显，政府内部还在上演某种斗争，所以接下来几周我们应该关注什么。
36:00
Yeah we've sort of touched on this a couple times but I'm wondering what you the sort of high level reaction in Washington has been to the resignation and what you see this sort of the next steps on the political side of this I mean we talked about hearings
对，我的意思是，我觉得Washington的人也对事情发生得这么快相当震惊，尽管你知道，在政府内部，关于这个所谓的中国间谍和Jensen Huang的讨论已经持续了很长时间，但事情在过去一周确实发生得非常快。
36:12
clearly there's still a sort of battle being played out inside the administration so what should we be looking at for the next few weeks.
所以很明显，现在Democrats在Congress掌权，我们肯定会看到更多要求让Jensen和Nvidia出席听证会的呼声，你知道，我们也肯定会看到Congress出台更多监管、可能影响它们销售的chips法案的可能性，然后还要看Trump政府是否有更多动力发布这类全球规则，尤其是那些打压Southeast Asia data centers的规则，这算是你知道的一个已经被制造出来的巨大漏洞。
36:19
Yeah I mean I think people in Washington are quite stunned at how quickly this has happened as well even though you know within the administration this discussion about this alleged Chinese spy and Jensen Huang has been going on for quite a long time things have really happened very quickly in the last week.
36:38
So obviously with Democrats now in power in Congress we're certainly looking at more calls for hearings involving Jensen and Nvidia you know we're definitely looking at the possibility of more regulation from Congress chips bills that could impact their sales somewhat
36:58
and then also looking to see if the Trump administration has more motivation to issue these kind of global rules particularly ones that clamp down on data centers in Southeast Asia which is kind of this you know this massive loophole that's been created
37:17
the administration bands chip sales directly to China but it hasn't banned Chinese companies from using data centers just right outside that fence in Southeast Asia so there's just a booming industry there and it officials right now are discussing how much to regulate that.
政府禁止直接向中国出售 chip，但并没有禁止中国公司在东南亚、就在那道限制线外使用 data centers，所以那边这个行业正蓬勃发展，官员们现在也在讨论要监管到什么程度。
37:35
They've struggled with that question for over a year now so I'm not sure how quickly that regulation would come out if at all but certainly it is top of everyone's buying at this moment.
这个问题他们已经纠结了一年多，所以我不确定这项监管会多快出来，甚至会不会出来，但眼下这绝对是所有人最关注的事。
37:46
Stephen you've covered Jensen Huang more closely than just about anyone could you have ever foreseen this outcome.
Stephen，你报道 Jensen Huang 比几乎任何人都更深入，你能预见到这个结果吗？
37:52
No, you know I thought he would survive the initial scandal actually it was only when I started to hear about you know more women than I was like maybe not.
不能，你知道，我原本以为他能挺过最初的丑闻，实际上直到我开始听到，你知道，更多女性的事，我才觉得也许不行。
38:03
You know there was just such a strong incentive for the company to keep him more so than almost any other company.
你知道，公司留住他的动机太强了，几乎比其他任何公司都强。
38:12
It's extraordinary to think of the rise and fall of this man and how rapidly it occurred it's like something out of Greek tragedy you know he was the most powerful man in AI one of those powerful people in the world.
想想这个人的起落，以及这一切发生得有多快，真的很不寻常，简直像希腊悲剧里的情节。你知道，他曾经是 AI 领域最有权力的人，是世界上最有权势的人之一。
38:26
30 days ago right and now he has nothing really I mean there's nothing he is 3% of in video which is still worth a lot but he has no kind of executive power anymore and Trump's not going to return his phone calls.
30 天前，对吧，现在他真的什么都没有了。我是说，他手里没什么了——他持有 in video 3% 的股份，那仍然很值钱，但他已经没有任何高管权力了，Trump 也不会回他电话。
38:40
So it's just such a shocking rise and fall and it really shows you that even in the age of AI AI is taking over everything it's still these kind of human foibles that determine what happens right something's never changed.
所以这就是一次如此令人震惊的起落，它真的告诉你，即使到了 AI 时代，AI 正在接管一切，仍然是这些人性的弱点在决定发生什么，对吧，有些东西永远不会变。
38:56
Yeah I mean this is it's the biggest story in tech this year it feels like an espionage novel and family tragedy all sort of rolled into one.
是啊，我是说，这是今年科技圈最大的新闻，感觉像把间谍小说和家庭悲剧全揉在一起了。
39:07
But you know as Stephen is saying it has this kind of recognizable human nature element to it it's a it's a classic story of hubris some guy got insanely rich and powerful he got famous he started to behave like the rules didn't apply on a rise that also how you guys see what happened here.
但你知道，就像 Stephen 说的，这件事有一种大家都能理解的人性因素，这是个经典的傲慢故事：某个人变得极其有钱有势，出了名，然后在他崛起的过程中开始表现得好像规则都不适用于他。你们也是这么看这里发生的事吗？
39:23
No I mean certainly here in Washington to this is just dominating the conversation and I agree is just you know an incredible rise and fall.
不，我是说，至少在 Washington 这里，这件事完全主导了讨论，我也同意，你知道，这就是一场不可思议的崛起与坠落。
39:33
The story of somebody flying too close to the sun and you know something that will have a lot of fall out here in Congress but also within the administration where jensen had become this this very you know kind of verified figure who is very close to the president.
这是一个某人飞得离太阳太近的故事，你知道，这件事会在 Congress 这里，也会在政府内部产生很多余波；而 Jensen 已经成了这样一个，你知道，非常受认可、和总统关系非常近的人物。
39:53
There are big questions about how that relationship proceeds from here.
这段关系接下来会怎么发展，还有很大的疑问。
39:58
Ryan what about you.
Ryan，你呢？
40:00
A couple days ago I was watching AI remakes of the Odyssey because Elon Musk said the Odyssey remake by Christopher Nolan was too woke and.
几天前我在看用 AI 重制的 Odyssey，因为 Elon Musk 说 Christopher Nolan 拍的 Odyssey 重制版太 woke 了，而且……
40:10
I don't know you were talking about Greek tragedies here but maybe some Nvidia chips were used to make those AI recreations of the Odyssey and.
我也不知道，你们刚才在说希腊悲剧，但也许做那些 Odyssey 的 AI 重制时用了一些 Nvidia chips，而且……
40:17
And now we're here and.
而现在我们走到这一步了，而且……
40:20
And he's out and maybe there's a journey back for him but it is kind of surreal to watch it all play out.
他出局了，也许他还有一条回来的路，但看着这一切发生，真的有点超现实。
40:26
I don't think I can wrap it up where there's this endgame where jensen fraternity is just tortured by satirical memes of himself generated using his own chips and the quick.
我不觉得我能把它收尾成这样一个终局：jensen fraternity 被那些用他自己的芯片生成的、关于他自己的讽刺梗图折磨着，而且来得飞快。
40:38
I can't tell you how many how fast those memes popped up yesterday and I think they're pretty terrible and tasteless but like they were just.
我没法告诉你昨天那些梗图冒出来得有多少、有多快，我觉得它们挺糟糕、挺没品味的，但它们就是……
40:45
All over acts within 30 minutes of our story going up and and they're all being made by the Nvidia by the Nvidia chips humming away in data centers and Singapore and elsewhere well that that actually is exactly and precisely a Greek tragedy.
我们报道发出后30分钟内就到处都是了，而且全都是由 Nvidia 芯片做出来的，那些芯片在新加坡等地的数据中心里嗡嗡运转——这真的、确切地说，就是一出希腊悲剧。
40:58
This has been a really enlightening conversation guys I really appreciate you coming in and talking me through this this has been Ryan Mac on a swanson and Stephen wit and I'm Max read and this is hard fork.
这真是一次很有启发的对话，各位，非常感谢你们过来跟我聊这些。这是 Ryan Mac、a swanson 和 Stephen wit，我是 Max read，这里是 hard fork。
41:09
Your team is on a deadline but moving all your enterprise data will take time your business simply doesn't have.
你的团队有截止期限，但迁移所有企业数据需要时间，而你的业务根本没有这些时间。
41:27
IBM technology lets AI work with your data where it already lives with an open hybrid cloud approach designed to build on your existing investments.
IBM technology 让 AI 能在你的数据原本所在的地方直接使用这些数据，采用 open hybrid cloud 方案，建立在你现有投资之上。
41:37
It's another way IBM helps you put your data to work let's create smarter business IBM visit IBM dot com to learn more.
这是 IBM 帮你让数据发挥作用的另一种方式。让我们一起打造更智能的业务。IBM，访问 IBM dot com 了解更多。
41:50
Stripe is built for whatever comes next because AI isn't just changing business it's evolving fraud stripe radar detects fraud with the vast scale of stripes 1.9 trillion dollar annual transaction volume in fact when a card is used there's a 92% chance the stripe network has seen it before that means emerging fraud patterns are detected sooner blocking bad actors welcoming good customers learn more about fighting fraud with stripe at stripe dot com slash radar.
Stripe 是为应对接下来的一切而打造的，因为 AI 不只是在改变商业，它也在让欺诈不断演变。Stripe Radar 借助 Stripe 每年 1.9 万亿美元交易额的庞大规模来检测欺诈。事实上，当一张卡被使用时，Stripe 网络有 92% 的概率之前已经见过它。这意味着新兴的欺诈模式能更早被发现，阻止不良行为者，欢迎优质客户。想了解更多如何用 Stripe 打击欺诈，请访问 stripe dot com 斜杠 radar。
42:20
Your business is built for something bigger that's why FM brings together engineering expertise AI powered by FM collected data and trusted partnership to help you reduce risk before disruption FM helps protect what makes your business possible so you can focus on what matters most and progress with confidence FM protect your purpose.
你的企业是为更宏大的目标而建的，这就是为什么 FM 汇集工程专业能力、由 FM 收集的数据驱动的 AI，以及可信赖的合作关系，帮助你在业务中断之前降低风险。FM 帮助保护让你的企业得以运转的关键要素，这样你就能专注于最重要的事情，并充满信心地前进。FM，守护你的目标。
42:47
Visit FM dot com forward slash protect your purpose.
访问 FM dot com 斜杠 protect your purpose。
42:52
Next week Sam Altman Elon Musk and many other tech leaders will be interviewed by Andrew Ross Sorkin on stage at the dealbook summit and it's hard to imagine they won't be asked for their thoughts on Jensen Wong.
下周，Sam Altman、Elon Musk 以及许多其他科技领袖将在 dealbook summit 的舞台上接受 Andrew Ross Sorkin 的采访，很难想象他们不会被问到对 Jensen Wong 的看法。
43:03
You can watch select conversations from dealbook on November 18th for free at ny times dot com or in the New York Times app.
你可以在 11 月 18 日免费在 ny times dot com 或 New York Times app 上观看 dealbook 的部分精选对话。
43:10
This episode of hard for was produced by Whitney Jones and so you're okay and edited by veerin povich with additional editorial support from Brendan Klingkenberg Lisa Tobin and Brooke Minter's original music by Marion Luzano, Rowan Neymistow and Dan Powell additional video production by Chris shop.
本期 hard for 由 Whitney Jones 和 so you're okay 制作，由 veerin povich 编辑，额外编辑支持来自 Brendan Klingkenberg、Lisa Tobin 和 Brooke Minter，原创音乐由 Marion Luzano、Rowan Neymistow 和 Dan Powell 制作，额外视频制作由 Chris shop 负责。
43:28
You can watch this full episode on YouTube at youtube dot com slash hard for special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Jessica Testa, Huiwank Tam, Maddie Masiello, Zach Caldwell, Luke Wylander, Thomas Trudeau, Chris Moore.
你可以在 YouTube 上观看本期完整节目，地址是 youtube dot com 斜杠 hard for。特别感谢 Sam Dolnick、Jessica Testa、Huiwank Tam、Maddie Masiello、Zach Caldwell、Luke Wylander、Thomas Trudeau、Chris Moore。
43:39
Michael Cordero and Dahlia Hadad we love to hear from our audience.
Michael Cordero 和 Dahlia Hadad，我们很喜欢听到听众的声音。
43:44
If you have any questions or comments or want to give us a piece of your mind, find us at ny times dot com slash hard for or you can email us hard fork at ny times dot com.
如果你有问题、评论，或者想吐槽，可以在 nytimes.com/hardfork 找到我们，也可以发邮件到 hardfork@nytimes.com。
44:11
This podcast is supported by Viking committed to exploring the world in comfort.
本播客由 Viking 赞助，Viking 致力于让人们在舒适中探索世界。
44:16
Discover the heart of Europe by river on an elegant Viking long ship with thoughtful service destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and on shore.
乘坐优雅的 Viking long ship 沿河探索欧洲腹地，享受贴心服务、以目的地为焦点的餐饮，以及船上和岸上的文化体验。
44:26
And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos learn more at Viking dot com.
而且每一趟 Viking 之旅都是全包式的，不接待儿童，也没有赌场，了解更多请访问 Viking.com。