Hard Fork
Anthropic’s Quest to Give A.I. Morals
00:0000:44:20
00:00
Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies.
本播客由 Dell Technologies 赞助。
00:03
It's time to put AI to work.
是时候让 AI 投入工作了。
00:05
Is your business ready?
你的企业准备好了吗？
00:06
The challenge isn't getting started with AI.
挑战不在于开始用 AI。
00:09
It's scaling beyond pilots while maintaining control
而在于超越 pilot 项目实现 scaling，同时保持对
00:12
of your data, governance, infrastructure, and costs.
你的数据、governance、infrastructure 和成本的控制。
00:15
Dell AI Factory provides the Integrated Foundation
Dell AI Factory 提供 Integrated Foundation
00:18
you need to scale AI securely and efficiently
让你能够安全、高效地 scale AI
00:21
with one trusted partner, Dell, AI on your terms.
与一个值得信赖的合作伙伴 Dell 一起，让 AI 按你的方式来。
00:25
From idea to impact.
从想法到影响力。
00:27
Learn more at dell.com slash your way to AI
了解更多，请访问 dell.com/your way to AI
00:30
that's dell.com slash your way to AI.
也就是 dell.com/your way to AI。
00:36
Next month, Anthropic plans to go public
下个月，Anthropic 计划上市
00:38
and what's likely to be the largest IPO in history.
而且这很可能是史上规模最大的 IPO。
00:41
We're talking a $2 trillion company.
我们说的可是一家市值 2 万亿美元的公司。
00:45
Outside the company, everyone is wondering
在公司外部，大家都在琢磨
00:47
how big can this get?
这能发展到多大？
00:48
Is this sustainable?
这能持续吗？
00:49
Is there an AI bubble waiting to burst?
是不是有个 AI 泡沫正等着破？
00:51
Inside the company, they're asking those questions too.
在公司内部，他们也在问这些问题。
00:54
But Anthropic is known as the most anxious
但 Anthropic 是以最焦虑而著称的
00:56
or the most existential of the AI companies.
或者说，是 AI 公司里最存在主义的一家。
00:58
So they're also asking some other questions.
所以，他们也在问一些别的问题。
01:01
Is Claude their large language model alive?
Claude，他们的 LLM，是活的吗？
01:04
Conscious?
有意识吗？
01:05
Worthy of moral consideration?
值得道德考量吗？
01:07
Does it feel pain?
它会感到疼痛吗？
01:08
Does it have a soul?
它有灵魂吗？
01:09
Can we teach it to act morally?
我们能教它按道德行事吗？
01:11
These aren't new questions.
这些都不是新问题。
01:12
In fact, they animate most science fiction
事实上，它们在推动着大多数科幻作品
01:14
for better and for worse.
不管是好是坏。
01:16
But science fiction is, you know, fiction.
但科幻小说，你知道的，终究是虚构的。
01:19
And Anthropic seems to think
而 Anthropic 似乎觉得
01:21
whatever's happening with Claude is very different.
Claude 身上正在发生的事却很不一样。
01:23
Very real.
非常真实。
01:25
It might be why CEO Dario Amade was the first to call
这可能就是为什么 CEO Dario Amade 第一个呼吁
01:28
for a pause in AI development.
暂停 AI 发展。
01:30
And it might be why they've been secretly meeting
也可能就是为什么他们一直在秘密会见
01:32
with religious and spiritual leaders
宗教与灵性领袖
01:33
to ask them those same questions.
去问他们那些同样的问题。
01:35
I learned this from an amazing piece
我是从一篇特别精彩的文章里知道的，
01:37
by the Times' religion correspondent, Elizabeth Dias,
作者是 Times 的宗教记者 Elizabeth Dias，
01:39
who broke the story of these meetings
她最先报道了这些会面，
01:41
and of the reaction to Anthropic's request
以及大家对 Anthropic 的请求的反应
01:43
among the assembled priests, rabbis, and gurus.
在聚集起来的神父、拉比和上师当中。
01:46
I thought Elizabeth's story was fascinating.
我觉得 Elizabeth 的报道太有意思了。
01:48
It was a new way into the endless consciousness debate.
它给这场没完没了的意识之争提供了一个新的切入口。
01:51
It took me inside this future $2 trillion company
它把我带进了这家未来市值 2 万亿美元的公司内部
01:53
as it struggles to understand what it's built
看它如何挣扎着理解自己造出了什么
01:55
and how to treat it.
以及该如何对待它。
01:57
And it showed me what happens when people in institutions
它也让我看到，当机构里那些
01:59
that are more used to doctrinal debates
更习惯于教义辩论
02:01
and theological rumination start being consulted
和神学式沉思的人开始被咨询
02:03
on software development.
软件开发方面的事时，会发生什么。
02:06
Unsurprisingly, Anthropic's efforts don't seem
不出所料，Anthropic 的努力似乎并不
02:08
to have brought us any closer to answering their questions.
让我们离回答他们的问题更近一点。
02:10
If anything, they've simply opened up more questions.
真要说的话，他们只是引出了更多问题。
02:13
Like, are these people maniacs?
比如说，这些人是不是疯子？
02:15
Or is this exactly what they should be doing?
还是说，这正是他们该做的事？
02:18
An obvious conclusion is that the worlds of tech
一个显而易见的结论是，tech 世界
02:20
and religion are getting much closer together.
和宗教世界正在越走越近。
02:22
After all, as Elizabeth told me,
毕竟，正如 Elizabeth 告诉我的那样，
02:24
if you've got questions about the future
如果你对未来有疑问
02:26
on a multi-century timeline,
在跨越多个世纪的时间尺度上，
02:27
there aren't many better institutions to ask
没有多少机构比 Catholic Church
02:29
than the Catholic Church.
更适合去问了。
02:31
So I got Elizabeth together with my colleagues,
所以我把 Elizabeth 和我的同事们聚到一起，
02:33
tech reporter Aaron Griffith,
科技记者 Aaron Griffith，
02:34
and opinion writer David Wallace Wells,
以及评论撰稿人 David Wallace Wells，
02:36
to explore this weird new development.
来探讨这个奇怪的新进展。
02:38
And what it means for Anthropic, for AI,
以及这对 Anthropic、对 AI 来说意味着什么，
02:40
for religion, and for the rest of us.
对宗教来说，也对我们其他人来说。
02:42
I'm Max Reed. This is Hard Fork.
我是 Max Reed。这里是 Hard Fork。
02:45
Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies.
本播客由 Dell Technologies 提供支持。
02:58
It's time to put AI to work.
是时候让 AI 投入工作了。
03:00
Is your business ready?
你的企业准备好了吗？
03:01
The challenge isn't getting started with AI.
挑战不在于开始使用 AI。
03:04
It's scaling beyond pilots.
而是要在 pilots 之外做 scaling。
03:06
While maintaining control of your data,
同时保持对你数据的控制，
03:08
governance, infrastructure, and costs.
governance、infrastructure 和成本。
03:10
Dell AI Factory provides the Integrated Foundation
Dell AI Factory 提供 Integrated Foundation，
03:13
you need to scale AI securely and efficiently
让你能安全、高效地 scale AI，
03:16
with one trusted partner, Dell, AI on your terms.
与一个值得信赖的合作伙伴 Dell 一起，AI 由你做主。
03:20
From idea to impact.
从想法到影响力。
03:22
Learn more at dell.com slash your way to AI.
了解更多，请访问 dell.com/yourwaytoAI。
03:25
That's dell.com slash your way to AI.
也就是 dell.com/yourwaytoAI。
03:29
Today's AI builders need infrastructure
如今的 AI 构建者需要 infrastructure。
03:31
that scales with their ambitions.
能随着他们的雄心一同扩展。
03:33
Iron is a vertically integrated AI cloud platform,
Iron 是一个垂直整合的 AI cloud platform，
03:36
delivering data centers, compute, and software
提供 data centers、compute 和 software，
03:39
for AI training and inference underpinned
用于 AI training 和 inference，并依托于
03:41
by its expansive portfolio of land and grid connected power
其庞大的土地和 grid connected power 组合，
03:44
in renewable rich regions globally.
位于全球 renewable 资源丰富的地区。
03:46
Iron's AI cloud gives direct access to Nvidia GPUs,
Iron 的 AI cloud 让用户可以直接访问 Nvidia GPUs，
03:50
scalable from hundreds to thousands.
可从数百个扩展到数千个。
03:53
For builders, that means direct access to AI compute,
对构建者来说，这意味着可以直接访问 AI compute，
03:56
rapid scaling, and predictable pricing.
快速 scaling，以及可预测的定价。
03:59
Iron, AI cloud for the next big thing.
Iron，为下一个大热门打造的 AI cloud。
04:02
AI spend is growing fast, but most businesses
AI spend 正在快速增长，但大多数企业
04:05
still can't see exactly where that money is going.
仍然看不清这些钱到底花在了哪里。
04:08
Ramp gives businesses visibility and control
Ramp 让企业获得可见性和控制力
04:11
across AI providers with real-time guardrails
覆盖各个 AI providers，并配有 real-time guardrails
04:14
by team and model.
按团队和 model 划分。
04:15
Helping ensure spend goes to the highest ROI areas.
帮助确保每一笔支出都流向 ROI 最高的领域。
04:19
Stop guessing where your AI spend is going.
别再猜你的 AI 支出都花到哪儿去了。
04:21
Get started with Ramp.
开始使用 Ramp 吧。
04:23
And if you're new to Ramp, you can get $250 off
如果你是 Ramp 新用户，还能减免 $250
04:27
at ramp.com slash hard fork.
在 ramp.com slash hard fork。
04:29
Go to ramp.com slash hard fork.
去 ramp.com slash hard fork。
04:32
Ramp.com slash hard fork.
Ramp.com slash hard fork。
04:36
I've spent a lot of time in the last day
过去一天里我花了很多时间
04:38
thinking about Elizabeth's piece.
在想 Elizabeth 的那篇东西。
04:40
And really specifically, I've been trying to write a joke
而且具体来说，我一直在试着写一个笑话，
04:42
that I think is going to get a great reaction from the three of you.
我觉得它肯定能让你们三个反应特别热烈。
04:45
So a priest, a rabbi, and a large language model
所以，一个神父、一个拉比，还有一个 large language model
04:49
walk into a bar.
走进一家酒吧。
04:51
I hate it already.
我已经开始讨厌这个笑话了。
04:52
The bartender says, first rounds on me.
酒保说，第一轮算我的。
04:54
And the priest says, I'll have a whiskey shot.
神父说，我要一小杯威士忌。
04:57
And the rabbi says, I'll have a vodka shot.
拉比说，我要来一杯伏特加。
05:00
And the large language model says, nothing for me,
然后那个 large language model 说，我不用了，
05:03
thanks.
谢谢。
05:04
I excel at zero shot learning.
我擅长 zero shot learning。
05:10
Whitney, can we get some laughter piped in there?
Whitney，能不能给我们配点笑声？
05:13
Please, I'll roll that again with life.
拜托，我会更有活力地再放一遍。
05:16
No, I want to start the conversation with this piece
不，我想用这个片段来开始对话，
05:19
that Elizabeth wrote.
就是 Elizabeth 写的那个。
05:21
This is fantastic, really fascinating story
这真是个很棒、特别吸引人的故事，
05:23
called religious scholars met with Anthropic.
标题是《宗教研究学者与 Anthropic 会面》。
05:26
What they heard stunned them, which was in the times last week.
他们听到的内容让他们大为震惊，这篇报道上周登在 Times 上。
05:29
Elizabeth, can you tell us a little bit about what this piece was?
Elizabeth，你能不能稍微跟我们讲讲这篇报道是什么？
05:33
Yeah.
嗯。
05:34
So, right, I cover religion, and now I cover tech, apparently.
嗯，对，我是跑宗教新闻的，现在显然也跑科技新闻了。
05:40
But the story started for me when I was hearing
但对我来说，这个故事是从我听说
05:44
about these different religious thinkers,
一些不同的宗教思想家时开始的，
05:47
sort of across the whole world,
差不多遍布全世界，
05:50
who were going into meetings at Anthropics headquarters,
他们会去 Anthropic 总部开会，
05:55
either in discrete, like private meetings or more,
要么是小范围的，比如私人会面，要么是更大规模的，
05:59
a bigger groups of 20, these summits,
大概 20 人的团体，这些峰会，
06:02
mostly under non-disclosure agreements
大多是在保密协议下进行的，
06:04
to not reveal Anthropics research,
不能泄露 Anthropic 的研究，
06:07
to talk about very big moral questions
去讨论一些非常重大的道德问题，
06:11
that Anthropic wanted to put in front of them.
也就是 Anthropic 想摆到他们面前的那些问题。
06:14
And there were two.
而且有两件事。
06:16
One was kind of broaching this question of AI consciousness.
其中一个有点像是在引出 AI consciousness 这个问题。
06:20
And two, Anthropic wanted to learn in their words,
第二，Anthropic 想了解，用他们的话说，
06:25
like how to morally form quad to be a morally good entity.
就是怎么在道德上把 quad 塑造成一个道德上良善的实体。
06:30
And then I just had this incoming, you know,
然后我就收到了这些来信，你知道，
06:34
first from these religious thinkers about what their experience
最先来自这些宗教思想家，讲的是他们的经历
06:38
was like at Anthropic, what Anthropic wanted to know,
在 Anthropic 是什么样的，Anthropic 想知道什么，
06:42
what the issues they were concerned about were,
他们关心的问题是什么，
06:44
and then also within Anthropic,
然后还有，在 Anthropic 内部，
06:47
like learning from Chris Ola,
比如向 Chris Ola 学习，
06:49
one of the company's co-founders,
他是公司的联合创始人之一，
06:51
who's been spearheading this project,
一直在牵头推进这个项目，
06:53
what his own moral questions were,
他自己的道德问题是什么，
06:56
that were kind of driving a lot of what they talked about
这些问题在某种程度上推动着他们在宗教和道德领域里作为研究去讨论的很多内容。
07:00
as research in their religious and moral space.
我能直接问一下吗，
07:04
Can I just ask,
我能问一下吗，
07:05
I want to establish, like sort of on a high level,
我想先从一个比较 high level 的层面来搞清楚，
07:07
what does Anthropic specifically want out of this?
Anthropic 具体想从这件事里得到什么？
07:10
Because it sounds like they're doing two or three different things.
因为听起来他们在做两三种不同的事情。
07:12
It's maybe a little bit unfocused
这也许有点不太聚焦，
07:14
or it's just that there's a few different kinds of conversations
或者只是说，他们在进行几种不同类型的对话。
07:17
they're having.
对，我觉得确实是这样。
07:18
Yeah, I think it's true.
Anthropic 当时在进行多场不同的对话，
07:19
There's multiple conversations Anthropic was having,
Anthropic 当时在进行好几场对话，
07:22
it evolved over time.
它是随着时间演变的。
07:24
I mean, this is such a fast-moving target,
我是说，这真的是个变化飞快的目标，
07:27
but for Anthropic, the journey started for Christopher Ola,
但对 Anthropic 来说，这段旅程是从 Christopher Ola 开始的，
07:32
he, you know, in his own life story,
他，你知道，在他自己的人生故事里，
07:35
had connections to the Christian space growing up.
从小就和基督教圈子有联系。
07:38
He left evangelical faith and has talked since then
他离开了福音派信仰，自那以后也谈过
07:41
about how he's more drawn to Buddhism,
说自己如何更被佛教吸引，
07:44
but he was worried about this question of how,
但他担心的是这样一个问题：如何，
07:50
even the idea of AI consciousness might be received,
甚至 AI consciousness 这个概念都可能被接受，
07:54
especially in Christian communities.
尤其是在基督教社群里。
07:56
I mean, that could be perceived as heretical,
我是说，这可能会被视为异端，
07:59
like not just weird and silly, but like,
不只是怪异和荒唐，而是，就像，
08:01
this is fundamentally against our religious beliefs.
这从根本上违背了我们的宗教信仰。
08:04
And so he sort of thought about a year ago
所以大概一年前，他有点想过，
08:07
he wanted to be a bridge figure.
他想成为一个桥梁式的人物。
08:09
He wanted to see how he could kind of go between cloth and Christ, right?
他想看看自己怎么能有点在神职界和 Christ 之间来回穿梭，对吧？
08:14
And so he reached out to a Catholic moral ethos,
于是他联系了一位天主教道德伦理学家，
08:19
who specializes in bioethics,
对方专攻 bioethics，
08:21
and they had some conversations about that,
他们就此有过一些对话，
08:26
but then it turned to Anthropic's goal for these convenings,
但后来话题转到了 Anthropic 举办这些聚会的目的，
08:30
which was how do we morally form, that's their language,
也就是，用他们的说法，我们该如何在道德上塑造，
08:34
like how do we morally form cloth on all of our AI models
比如我们该如何在道德上塑造 Claude 和我们的所有 AI models，
08:39
into like a morally good entity?
让它们变成一种道德上良善的实体？
08:42
And the thinking was if they could do that,
而当时的想法是，如果他们能做到这一点，
08:45
if they could make cloth good,
如果他们能把 Claude 做好，
08:48
then the world would be more safe.
那这个世界就会更安全。
08:50
But they haven't said or shown how they plan
但他们还没说，也没展示他们打算怎么
08:53
to use the outcome of these conversations.
利用这些对话的结果。
08:57
That's pretty unclear even to the participants currently.
这一点目前连参与者自己都还挺不清楚。
09:01
The way that you're describing it,
按你描述的这个方式来说，
09:03
it almost sounds like there's sort of two separate purposes, right?
听起来几乎像是，嗯，有两个不同的目的，对吧？
09:06
One is like the alignment project.
其中一个就像是 alignment project。
09:08
And what can we learn from these, you know,
那我们能从这些人身上学到什么呢，你知道，
09:10
these wise men and women about how to raise moral actors?
这些睿智的男男女女，关于如何培养有道德的行为主体？
09:14
And then there's this project of sort of building
然后还有这个项目，算是要建立
09:17
a sort of spiritual system around AI more generally.
一种更广泛地围绕 AI 的灵性体系。
09:22
And you said a minute ago that Chris Ola started this project
你刚才说，Chris Ola 启动了这个项目
09:26
with some anxiety about what it would mean
带着一些焦虑，担心那会意味着什么
09:28
to go to religious leaders,
去找宗教领袖，
09:30
obviously convinced himself that AI and LLMs
显然让自己相信，AI 和 LLMs
09:34
were perhaps conscious already,
也许已经有意识了，
09:36
but certainly like on the path to consciousness
但肯定就像是在通往意识的路上，
09:39
and worried about what the response would be.
而且担心会得到什么样的回应。
09:41
And so I wondered how you,
所以我想知道，你，
09:43
like how that played out on the ground,
就是那在实际中是怎么展开的，
09:46
like did a lot of the people who showed up
比如说，很多到场的人
09:48
were they worried about how weird it was
他们会不会担心这有多奇怪，
09:50
that all of these people on the anthropic side of the room
就是房间里 Anthropic 那边的所有这些人
09:53
were already sure that they were, you know,
已经确信它们就是，你知道，
09:56
masters of thousands of souls.
掌控着成千上万个灵魂的主宰。
09:58
And like how did they ask that side of the debate out?
那他们又是怎么把辩论的那一方问出来的呢？
10:02
Well, anthropic was very careful
嗯，anthropic 非常谨慎
10:04
in all of their interviews with me
在他们跟我的所有采访里
10:07
to say very clearly that they're uncertain, right?
都非常明确地说他们并不确定，对吧？
10:10
Chris never went as far as saying like absolutely
Chris 从来没说到那种程度，说“绝对
10:13
these are conscious beings.
这些是有意识的存在。”
10:16
It was very evident from how he and his team
很明显，从他和他的团队
10:20
talked to their guests that they, you know,
跟他们的嘉宾交谈的方式就能看出来，他们，你知道，
10:23
he was concerned about how to treat Claude
他很在意该怎么对待 Claude
10:27
as a, you know, he was very worried that it was an entity
当成一个，你知道，他非常担心它是一个实体
10:30
that was experienced suffering
会经历痛苦
10:32
and he was worried about its mental health
而且他担心它的心理健康
10:34
and these kinds of things.
以及这类事情。
10:36
So it's pretty clearly he's pretty far along
所以很明显，他已经走得相当远了。
10:38
in how he thinks about it.
在他怎么看待这件事上。
10:40
And the, I could hear in talking,
而且，那个，我在跟人聊的时候能听出来，
10:43
especially because I did this story, like,
尤其因为我是做这个报道的，就，
10:45
over several months.
前后花了好几个月。
10:46
There was a progression of thought
想法上有一个递进的过程
10:47
for a lot of these thinkers too.
对很多这些思考者来说也是如此。
10:49
And some of them, you know,
而且他们中的一些人，你知道，
10:51
bought in right away to what they were hearing
马上就接受了自己听到的东西。
10:53
about Claude's potential consciousness
关于 Claude 可能拥有意识
10:56
and needing to treat it
以及需要带着一定程度的道德关怀
10:58
with a certain amount of moral care.
来对待它。
11:01
But others, you know,
但其他人，你知道，
11:03
if they went in more close-minded about it,
如果他们一开始对这件事更封闭，
11:05
they definitely opened the way
他们之后思考这件事的方式
11:07
that they think about it afterwards.
肯定就打开了。
11:09
So in that sense,
所以从这个意义上说，
11:11
anthropics project was effective,
anthropics project 挺有效的，
11:14
I think, in like opening
我觉得，这有点像把
11:17
how they think about it into these communities,
他们思考这件事的方式，带进这些社群，
11:20
many of whom, especially on the Christian side,
其中很多人，尤其是在基督教这边，
11:24
are more hesitant.
会更加犹豫。
11:26
There's a ton of great material in this.
这里面有大量很棒的材料。
11:28
It's really well reported
报道得真的非常扎实
11:29
and it covers a ton of ground.
而且涵盖的内容特别广。
11:31
I'm wondering, David and Aaron,
我很好奇，David 和 Aaron，
11:32
if you guys had particular pieces of it
你们俩有没有一些特别的部分
11:34
that really stuck out to you?
真的让你们印象很深？
11:36
I mean, the one thing that you mentioned already
我是说，你已经提到的一点
11:39
is the NDAs.
就是 NDAs。
11:40
I mean, it just strikes me as a little bit crazy,
我是说，这在我看来有点疯狂，
11:43
maybe a little paranoid,
也许有点偏执，
11:45
that you're inviting all these people in
你把所有这些人都请进来
11:47
to sort of have a summit
算是办一场峰会
11:48
to discuss these really important,
来讨论这些真的非常重要、
11:50
critical ideas for the future of society,
对社会未来至关重要的想法，
11:53
but it has to be done totally in secret.
但这必须完全秘密地进行。
11:55
And then it sounds like maybe from your article
然后听起来，也许从你的文章来看
11:57
that they dropped the NDAs,
他们取消了 NDAs，
11:59
was it as a result of your reporting
这是因为你的报道吗
12:01
or did they just decide that they were time bound?
还是他们只是觉得期限到了？
12:04
I don't know, how did that happen?
我不知道，那是怎么发生的？
12:05
Yeah, I can't prove that.
对，我没法证明这一点。
12:06
I don't know that.
这我不清楚。
12:08
But when I asked that,
但当我问起那个的时候，
12:09
I've asked at several different points
我在好几个不同的时间点都问过
12:11
because the NDA process was not the same
因为 NDA 流程并不一样
12:14
for everybody that I interviewed
对我采访过的每个人来说
12:16
and it seemed to change at different times.
而且它似乎在不同的时候会变。
12:19
I mean, in general,
我是说，总的来说，
12:20
anthropic is a very secretive company.
anthropic 是一家非常神秘的公司。
12:22
I mean, they are,
我是说，他们确实，
12:24
the employers are extremely loyal
雇主们极其忠诚，
12:26
and until somewhat recently,
而且直到最近一段时间，
12:28
there hasn't been many leaks
都没有多少泄密
12:30
to ever come out of there
从那里流出来过
12:31
because they view it as such a betrayal.
因为他们把这看成一种极大的背叛。
12:33
So it makes sense that they would want to lock it down,
所以他们想把它严加管控，这也说得通，
12:36
but at the same time,
但与此同时，
12:37
I think it probably was a little bit of a misstep.
我觉得这大概算是个小小的失误。
12:40
And the same way that these companies realize
而就像这些公司意识到
12:42
that having NDAs for their data center deals
给他们的 data center 交易签 NDA
12:45
was a misstep because it created distrust
是个失误，因为它造成了不信任
12:47
amongst all the people in the towns
在那些镇子的所有居民当中
12:49
that they're going to see.
也就是他们将会见到的那些镇子。
12:50
Yeah, and whenever I find in my reporting
对，而且每当我在做报道时发现
12:52
that there's an NDA about a moral topic,
有个关于道德议题的 NDA，
12:57
it makes me immediately ask,
我就会立刻问，
12:59
okay, who's benefiting from this?
好吧，谁在从中获益？
13:01
Why is this needed?
为什么需要这个？
13:03
And what does that mean
而那又意味着
13:05
about the kinds of questions
哪些类型的问题
13:06
that aren't being asked?
没有被问出来？
13:08
It invited more curiosity from me as a reporter, for sure.
作为一名记者，这确实让我更好奇了。
13:14
David, what about you?
David，你呢？
13:15
What did you take away from the piece?
你从这篇文章里有什么收获？
13:17
Well, I guess I started it
嗯，我想我一开始
13:18
with a sort of conventional view of anthropic
是带着一种对 Anthropic 的常规看法
13:20
as the humanist company,
把它当作那家人文主义公司，
13:24
among these AI companies.
在这些 AI 公司当中。
13:26
And what I was struck by in the piece
而这篇文章里让我印象最深的
13:28
were a few moments in which I felt really alienated
有几个时刻，我真的感到非常疏离
13:32
from Chris Ola himself
和 Chris Ola 本人
13:34
and maybe to some extent
而且也许在某种程度上
13:35
the sort of operating world view of the company as a whole.
整个公司作为一个整体的那种运作世界观。
13:38
And those were moments when, in one case,
而那些时刻是，在其中一个例子里，
13:40
Arabi challenges him suggesting that
Arabi 向他发起质疑，提出
13:44
if LLMs are actually conscious,
如果 LLMs 真的有意识，
13:46
that means that all of these companies
那就意味着所有这些公司
13:48
are running huge slave plantations
正在运营庞大的奴隶种植园
13:50
and they should have a moral obligation
而且他们应该有道德上的义务
13:52
to liberate the slaves
去解放那些奴隶
13:53
rather than make more of them
而不是制造更多奴隶
13:55
and make them work harder.
还让他们干得更卖力。
13:56
And it seems as though
而且看起来好像
13:58
Ola himself didn't really even
Ola 本人甚至都没有真正
14:00
clock that criticism.
意识到那个批评。
14:02
And then later on,
再后来，
14:03
when he reacts with horror
当他惊恐地做出反应，
14:05
upon receiving the Pope's encyclical
在收到教皇的通谕时，
14:08
about AI,
关于 AI 的，
14:09
seeing that the Pope is so opposed
看到教皇如此反对
14:12
to the idea of machine consciousness.
machine consciousness 这个想法。
14:14
And I just found myself thinking,
然后我不禁在想，
14:16
you know, what kind of a bubble
你知道，这得是个什么样的 bubble
14:17
you must be living in to expect
你得活在什么样的环境里，才会期待
14:19
that Pope Leo,
Pope Leo，
14:21
or really anyone in the Catholic tradition,
或者任何真正属于天主教传统的人，
14:23
would have a different intuition.
会有不同的直觉。
14:25
Would in thinking about the future of AI
在思考 AI 的未来时，会不会
14:27
think that we should be thinking
认为我们应该思考
14:30
of LLMs as having souls
把 LLMs 说成是有灵魂的
14:32
or having consciousness.
或者是有 consciousness 的。
14:33
And both of those moments just illustrated for me
而这两个时刻都刚好让我看到
14:36
what feel like this big gap
一个感觉像是巨大鸿沟的东西
14:38
between what I had assumed
存在于我原本以为的
14:40
the sort of natural humanistic values
那种自然的人文主义价值观
14:42
of a company like Anthropic would be
——像 Anthropic 这样的公司会有的——
14:44
and how the people inside it
和它内部的人
14:46
seemed to really be thinking about
似乎真正在思考的
14:47
the work they're doing
他们正在做的工作之间
14:48
at the sort of cosmic scale.
在那种宇宙级的尺度上。
14:51
Yeah, the experience for me
是啊，对我来说，这段经历
14:53
going into Silicon Valley
走进 Silicon Valley
14:55
and like kind of deep
而且有点像深入到
14:56
in these private conversations
这些私密对话里
14:58
at the heart of Anthropic's mission.
处在 Anthropic 使命的核心。
15:02
It reminded me of like,
这让我想起，就像，
15:05
when I go into
当我走进
15:06
and I do really like something
而且我真的挺喜欢那种
15:07
that's more straight religion reporting
更偏向直接做宗教报道
15:09
into an insular community,
深入一个封闭社区的东西，
15:11
when everything inside that community
当那个社区里面的一切
15:13
like makes sense to everyone living in it,
对住在里面的人来说都说得通，
15:15
but once you step outside,
但一旦你走到外面，
15:17
there's a real clash
就会有一种真正的冲突
15:19
with the broader world.
和更广阔的世界。
15:21
And it was funny like
而且挺好笑的是，就是
15:23
I had these two poles in the story, right?
我的故事里有这两个极点，对吧？
15:25
I was at the Vatican, right?
我当时就在 Vatican，对吧？
15:27
At the inner sanctum of the Catholic church
在 Catholic church 最内部的圣所里
15:30
and centuries of philosophy
还有几百年的哲学
15:32
about the human person.
关于人的位格。
15:34
And then I was also
然后我也
15:36
in a different inner sanctum, right?
身处另一个不同的内部圣所里，对吧？
15:37
That's being created in real time
这正在 real time 里被创造出来
15:39
at these tech companies like Anthropic.
在像 Anthropic 这样的科技公司里。
15:42
And it is a kind of philosophical system,
而它是一种哲学体系，
15:45
like on a quasi-religious system
有点像一种准宗教体系
15:47
that's being constructed.
正在被构建出来。
15:49
And it reminded me
这让我想起
15:51
of like a creation narrative
有点像一种创世叙事
15:53
that you hear about
你听过的那种
15:55
in religious traditions.
在宗教传统里。
15:57
I want to step back for a sec
我想先退一步。
15:59
because I think this relates
因为我觉得这跟
16:00
to the conversation we're having right now.
我们现在正在进行的这场对话有关。
16:02
David brought up the papal encyclical
David 提到了那篇教宗通谕。
16:04
which I think is an English
我觉得它是一篇英文的
16:06
is magnificent humanity.
是壮丽的人性。
16:07
I'm not going to even try to say
我甚至都不打算试着说
16:08
the Latin title.
那个拉丁语标题。
16:09
This plays a role in your story
这在你的故事里起了作用
16:11
because one person
因为其中一个人
16:13
who is not really thinking
其实完全没在想
16:15
at all of that clot is conscious
那个 clot 是 conscious 的
16:17
and this was a little conflict
而这算是个小冲突
16:19
between Chrisola who was present
在 Chrisola 之间，他当时在场
16:21
when the encyclical was read out
当通谕被宣读时
16:23
if you want to tell us about that.
如果你想跟我们聊聊这件事的话。
16:25
Yeah, so Pope Leo,
嗯，所以 Pope Leo，
16:27
you know, from the moment he was
你知道，从他
16:29
named, that it was clear
被任命的那一刻起，就很清楚
16:31
he was going to be the next pope
他会成为下一任教宗
16:33
and he was elected,
而且他当选了，
16:34
he made very clear
他非常明确地表示，
16:35
that a focus of his papacy
他的教宗任期的一个重点
16:37
was going to be AI.
将会是 AI。
16:39
And how to understand that
以及如何理解这一点
16:41
and how to protect humans
以及如何保护人类
16:43
in this changing world.
在这个不断变化的世界里。
16:45
I found out in my reporting
我在报道中发现
16:47
as the Vatican internally was trying
当时 Vatican 内部正试图
16:49
to figure out how it wanted
弄清楚它想如何
16:51
to present the pope's
来呈现教皇的
16:53
encyclical to the world.
向全世界发布通谕。
16:55
They were thinking about their launch event
他们当时在考虑自己的发布会
16:57
and they wanted to include
而且想邀请
16:59
a representative from Silicon Valley,
一位来自 Silicon Valley 的代表，
17:02
like one of the labs
比如其中一家实验室的人
17:04
at the pope's event on the pope's stage.
参加教皇的活动，登上教皇的舞台。
17:07
And the decision was made to invite
于是决定邀请
17:09
anthropic because
Anthropic，因为
17:11
of the focus that they had heard
关于他们听到的那个关注点
17:13
and anthropic like really caring about ethics.
以及 anthropic 真的很在意伦理。
17:15
And this was also right around the time
而这差不多也正是在那个时候
17:17
that anthropic got into it
anthropic 卷入了争执
17:19
with the Trump administration
跟 Trump administration
17:21
and the department of defense
以及 department of defense
17:23
over the use
围绕使用的问题
17:25
how they would and wouldn't want
他们愿意怎么用、不愿意怎么用
17:27
the government to use their technology
让政府使用他们的技术
17:29
for refusing to have it
因为拒绝让它
17:31
be involved in mass surveillance of citizens, et cetera.
参与对公民的大规模监控，等等。
17:33
Anyway,
反正，
17:35
the thing with these encyclicals
这些通谕的问题是
17:37
is they're very closely guarded,
它们被严格保密，
17:39
even among the people who are participating
甚至连参与其中的人
17:41
in the launch event.
在发布会里也不例外。
17:43
And, you know, I learned
而且，你知道，我得知
17:45
that Chris Ola
Chris Ola
17:47
only saw the full text
只看到了那份通谕的全文
17:49
of the encyclical a few days
就在五月那场活动
17:51
before the event in May.
的前几天。
17:53
And this was right around the time I first
而这差不多正好是我第一次
17:55
interviewed him in San Francisco
在 San Francisco 采访他的时候
17:57
and then I interviewed him again
后来我又采访了他一次
17:59
when we were at the Vatican
我们当时在 Vatican
18:01
for the launch event.
参加那场发布活动。
18:03
And you could hear,
而且你能听出来，
18:05
I mean, like looking at what
我是说，就像看
18:07
Pope Leo said,
Pope Leo 说的，
18:09
which is extremely clear,
那说得非常清楚，
18:10
and it's the priority is what he calls
而且最优先的就是他所说的
18:12
safeguarding the human.
守护人类。
18:14
And that's the center
而这就是核心
18:16
of all the moral questions
所有道德问题的核心
18:18
that he wants the world to be thinking about
他希望全世界去思考的
18:20
on this topic.
在这个话题上。
18:22
But Chris Ola was like,
但 Chris Ola 当时就像在说，
18:24
he ended up having to decide
他最后不得不做决定
18:26
he said like he may
他说他可能
18:28
not, he suggested to the Vatican
不会，他向 Vatican 提议
18:30
that he may not come over the
他可能无法克服这种
18:32
difference in consciousness
意识上的差异
18:34
because as you know,
因为如你所知，
18:36
it was described to me,
有人是这么跟我描述的，
18:38
he's faithful to his own moral convictions,
他忠于自己的道德信念，
18:40
some of which he shares
其中一些他和
18:42
with the Vatican
Vatican 共享，
18:44
and some unconsciousness.
还有一些是无意识状态。
18:46
He did not.
他没有。
18:48
So it really all came
所以这一切真的
18:50
to a head very much behind the scenes,
很大程度上是在幕后到了紧要关头，
18:52
but you could see this moral
但你能看到这条道德
18:54
fault line really developing
断层线真的在形成，
18:56
between the church,
在教会之间，
18:58
it's been like a center of power
它一直像个权力中心
19:00
for centuries
已经几个世纪了。
19:02
and this very new
还有这个非常新的
19:04
power center that's very rapidly
权力中心，它正非常迅速地
19:06
really getting followers
真的在获得追随者
19:08
and organizing people's lives
并组织着人们的生活
19:10
and those are functions
而这些职能
19:12
the church used to have.
是教会曾经拥有的。
19:14
Aaron, I wanted to ask you a question
Aaron，我想问你一个问题
19:16
because we've been talking a little bit about
因为我们之前稍微聊到了一点关于
19:18
like, you know,
就，你知道，
19:20
surprises in this area.
这个领域里的意外。
19:22
Anthropic is pretty well known as a kind of like
Anthropic 挺出名的，算是那种，怎么说呢
19:24
the consciousness company.
意识公司。
19:26
It's the company where the people
就是那家公司，里面的人
19:28
who really are strong believers
都是真正的坚定信徒
19:30
kind of work and run the show.
有点在那儿做事、说了算。
19:32
Was it surprising to you
你当时觉得意外吗？
19:34
like they were having these meetings
他们好像在幕后
19:36
behind the scenes with religious leaders?
和宗教领袖开这些会？
19:38
I've not heard of any other companies
我还没听说过有其他公司
19:40
that are working on AI really
真正在做 AI 的
19:42
like going to this extent
会做到这种程度
19:44
to get input from this community.
去听取这个社群的意见。
19:46
I mean,
我是说，
19:48
the question I have sort of
我有个问题，算是
19:50
is like how much is this really actually going to inform
就像是，这到底真的能多大程度地影响
19:52
at the end of the day their own view on?
说到底，他们自己对……的看法？
19:54
Are they actually like really
他们实际上是不是真的，就像，真的
19:56
it feels like to me
我感觉就像是
19:58
they're trying to win over others
他们是在试图争取其他人
20:00
so they can say look we do have the moral authority
这样他们就能说，你看，我们确实有道德权威
20:02
against these important representatives of this community.
去对抗这个 community 里这些重要的代表。
20:06
So everybody else come along with me
所以其他所有人都跟我来吧
20:08
as opposed to, you know,
而不是，你知道，
20:10
actually learning and incorporating those ideas
真正去学习并吸收那些理念，
20:12
of like moral goodness into their own product.
比如道德良善，融入他们自己的产品里。
20:14
They kind of already have it figured out.
他们算是已经搞明白了。
20:16
Well, I think for Anthropic
嗯，我觉得对 Anthropic 来说，
20:18
it was part research and part evangelism.
一部分是研究，一部分是布道。
20:20
That was pretty clear.
这一点相当清楚。
20:22
And the, you know, I've asked
然后，你知道，我已经问过
20:26
directly what the outcome is.
直接说结果到底是什么。
20:30
What is this research?
这项研究是什么？
20:32
What are these conversations being used for?
这些对话被用来做什么？
20:34
And is there been any
而且有没有任何
20:36
demonstrable like
可证明的、像是
20:38
proof of showing how they have
证据，能显示它们究竟
20:40
or have not made
还是没能让
20:42
Claude act better?
Claude 表现更好？
20:44
Haven't had that yet.
这个我还没遇到过。
20:46
So I don't know if they're
所以我不知道他们是不是
20:48
withholding that until a future time
故意把这个压到以后某个时候
20:50
or exactly what that will look like.
还是说那到底会是什么样。
20:52
The other side of this that actually
这件事的另一面，其实
20:54
is kind of interesting to me.
对我来说还挺有意思的。
20:56
Elizabeth, I'd be curious to hear this in your,
Elizabeth，我挺想听听你在这方面的，
20:58
if this came up at all in your reporting,
如果这件事在你的报道里出现过的话，
21:00
is that there has been a little bit of
就是，出现了一点点
21:02
a new rise of Christianity
基督教的新一轮兴起
21:04
throughout Silicon Valley over the last couple of years.
在过去的几年里，遍及整个 Silicon Valley。
21:06
Like it used to almost be
就像以前，那几乎就是
21:08
like taboo to talk about religion
谈论宗教是种禁忌
21:10
or anything religious.
或者任何跟宗教有关的东西。
21:12
Like you can remember from the Silicon Valley HBO show
就像你从 HBO 那部 Silicon Valley 剧里记得的
21:14
where there was a whole episode about
里面有一整集都在讲
21:16
like outing somebody as being Christian.
就像把某人是基督徒这件事曝光出来一样。
21:18
And like that has really changed
而且这真的变了
21:20
in the era of like Peter Teal talking about the anti-Christ.
在像 Peter Teal 谈论 anti-Christ 的时代里。
21:22
And like, you know,
而且，你知道，
21:24
some of the people who are especially focused on
有些特别关注
21:26
like a lot of defense tech stuff are really
很多 defense tech 那类东西的人，真的
21:28
bringing in a religious piece to that.
把宗教成分带进这里面了。
21:30
No, and they have a very different view on AI.
不，而且他们对 AI 有非常不同的看法。
21:34
They're usually like more on the
他们通常更偏向
21:36
accelerationist camp than
accelerationist 阵营，而不是
21:38
on the like kind of anthropic
那种有点像 anthropic 的
21:40
doomer slowdown careful
doomer、slowdown、谨慎
21:42
camp. But that
阵营。但那个
21:44
come up at all.
到底有被提起过吗。
21:46
Yeah, I think
对，我觉得
21:48
I just noticed I feel like it's like a big
我刚注意到，我感觉它像是个很大的
21:50
shuffling of the deck
重新洗牌
21:52
in a way that reminds me of like
某种程度上让我想起，就像
21:54
all American Christianity was like
整个美国基督教当时就像
21:56
shuffling a lot in the
不断洗牌，就在
21:58
rise to President Trump.
Trump 总统崛起的进程中。
22:00
Like the Alliance and the legions
就像 Alliance 和那些军团
22:02
were shifting.
都在变动。
22:04
And it was all happening in real time.
而这一切都在实时发生。
22:06
And power was different.
而权力则不一样。
22:08
And so it doesn't fit
所以它没法
22:10
neatly, you know.
严丝合缝地套进去，你知道吧。
22:12
But I'm curious
但我很好奇
22:14
like where the Alliance
比如 Alliance 接下来会走到哪一步
22:16
about kind of how we think about consciousness
关于我们怎么看待意识
22:18
and what the moral priorities should be about AI
以及 AI 的道德优先级应该是什么
22:20
where that goes next.
接下来会怎么发展。
22:22
I would say that just in general in the tech industry,
我会说，总的来说，在科技行业里，
22:24
it seems like that view of like
看起来那种观点，就是
22:26
the sort of the AI is having consciousness
那种 AI 拥有意识的说法
22:28
is is kind of on the fringe
有点算是边缘观点
22:30
a little bit like I think that it is
有点像，我觉得它
22:32
more common within
更常见于
22:34
anthropic and some of these
Anthropic 以及一些这类
22:36
communities that are like really densely
真的非常密集的社区
22:38
represented in anthropic.
在 anthropic 中有所体现。
22:40
But when I talk to most people
但当我跟大多数人聊的时候，
22:42
in the very vast
在这个极其庞大
22:44
and relatively diverse
又相对多元
22:46
tech industry,
的 tech industry 里，
22:48
most people are
大多数人
22:50
kind of a little bit dismissive
还是多少有点不以为然
22:52
of that idea still.
对那个想法。
22:54
Like it feels like it does really exist
就像，感觉它确实存在
22:56
in like a very specific population
在一个非常特定的人群里
22:58
which happens to be like very
而这个人群恰好又非常
23:00
overrepresented in a company like anthropic.
在像 Anthropic 这样的公司里占比过高。
23:02
I mean like acknowledging that, you know,
我的意思是，承认这一点，你知道，
23:04
Chris Ola is not
Chris Ola 并不是
23:06
singularly representative for the whole industry.
唯一能代表整个行业的人。
23:08
I have to say Elizabeth, when I'm reading your article,
我得说，Elizabeth，我在读你的文章时，
23:10
I'm thinking, you know,
我在想，你知道，
23:12
not about how AI companies
不是关于 AI 公司
23:14
are going to be integrating
会怎么去整合
23:16
or incorporating Christian values.
或者纳入基督教价值观。
23:18
I'm thinking these AI companies
我在想这些 AI 公司
23:20
themselves, like spiritual
本身，就像精神层面的
23:22
propositions, you know, that they are
命题，你知道，它们
23:24
they have aspects
它们有一些面向
23:26
of millenarianism to them.
对他们来说的千禧年主义。
23:28
They have aspects of
他们身上有某些
23:30
particular morality, which they've developed over time.
特定道德观的面向，这是他们随着时间发展出来的。
23:32
And even if I can recognize a lot of that
而且，就算我能看出其中很多
23:34
as arising from the work that they're doing
是源自他们正在做的工作
23:36
and responding to technical challenges,
以及是在应对技术挑战，
23:38
I also just find it off-putting.
我也只是觉得这挺让人反感的。
23:40
I mean on the one hand, first I'm just seeing these people
我的意思是，一方面，首先我只是看到这些人
23:42
who believe in a sort of
那些相信某种
23:44
a technological succession
智能上的技术性更替。
23:46
of intelligence.
那就是，一些处于核心位置的人
23:48
That some of the people who are central
对于设计那个未来而言
23:50
to designing that future
甚至对这类
23:52
are not even so sensitive to this sort of
显而易见的直觉性批评
23:54
obvious intuitive critiques
都不那么敏感，
23:56
that someone with a lifetime of experience
而这些批评，一个有毕生经验的人会提出。
23:58
thinking about these issues
琢磨这些问题
24:00
comes up with immediately.
马上就会想到。
24:02
Well, a lot of the religious thinkers
嗯，很多宗教思想家
24:04
would say to me, like these are questions,
会跟我说，这些问题，
24:06
like maybe not the exact question,
可能不是那个具体的问题，
24:08
but the topic of the question.
而是这个问题背后的主题。
24:10
This is like what we do, right?
这就像我们做的事，对吧？
24:12
Like we have been asking,
就像我们一直在问的，
24:14
rabbis have been asking this kind of these questions
拉比们一直在问这类问题
24:16
like how we treat other entities
比如我们该怎么对待其他实体
24:18
right for hundreds and hundreds of years.
这一问就是成百上千年了。
24:20
So there is like a depth of wisdom there.
所以这里面有一种很深的智慧。
24:24
And I mean, I guess anthropic would say,
而且我是说，我猜 anthropic 会说，
24:27
well, that's why we invited them, right?
嗯，这就是我们为什么请他们来，对吧？
24:29
But the question of well,
但问题是，
24:31
then what happens as a result of it
那结果会怎么样呢
24:33
is important.
很重要。
24:34
And I appreciate that you noticed
而且我很感激你注意到了
24:37
that kind of that sense in the story of like
那种，故事里的那种感觉，就像
24:41
the almost spiritual system
那个近乎精神性的系统
24:44
you can see anthropic building
你能看到 Anthropic 在构建
24:46
and living into and representing
并活入其中、并代表着
24:48
as an opposition, right,
作为一种对立面，对吧，
24:51
to say the Catholic Church.
比如说 Catholic Church。
24:53
And I really noticed that yeah,
而且我真的注意到，是啊，
24:56
even if people say, right,
就算人们说，对吧，
24:58
that they're in Silicon Valley, like,
他们在 Silicon Valley，就，
25:00
oh, we're like, we don't do the religion thing,
哦，我们就是，我们不搞宗教那一套，
25:02
like that's foreign, like that's not us.
就，那玩意儿是外来的，不是我们。
25:04
The thing is,
问题是，
25:06
everyone has philosophical systems
每个人都有自己的哲学体系
25:08
that structure and guide their lives, right?
这些体系在构建并指导着他们的生活，对吧？
25:11
Like that is at its core,
就像，这从本质上来说，
25:13
like what, you know,
就像，怎么说呢，你知道，
25:15
these questions of spirit, you know,
这些关于精神的问题，你知道，
25:17
small S, like human spirit even are.
小写 S 的，甚至就是人类精神那类。
25:19
And it seems to me like having studied
而在我看来，好像研究了
25:24
and reported on this so much in culture
并且在文化领域报道了这么多之后，
25:26
and in politics specifically,
尤其是在政治方面，
25:28
like what we're watching is in a way
就像我们看到的，某种程度上
25:30
like a new arise, right?
就像一种新的崛起，对吧？
25:33
Post-scientific revolution,
科学革命之后，
25:34
technological revolution,
技术革命，
25:36
like post-Darwin,
就像 Darwin 之后那样，
25:38
you know, what would it look like?
你知道，那会是什么样子？
25:40
What kinds of religious systems
什么样的宗教体系
25:44
will carry us forward and who gets
会带我们向前，而谁有资格
25:47
to control them,
去控制它们，
25:49
who decides what we believe and why, right?
谁来决定我们相信什么、又为什么相信，对吧？
25:52
Like it's, it's actually,
就像，这其实，
25:53
there's a lot of really similar questions.
有很多非常相似的问题。
25:55
It's just the,
只是这个，
25:57
the structure is like us, you know,
这个结构就像我们一样，你懂的，
26:00
is secular, right?
是世俗的，对吧？
26:01
It's a secular tech company.
它是一家世俗的科技公司。
26:03
Let's, I want to take a break,
咱们，我想休息一下，
26:05
because I want to open the conversation up
因为我想把对话再展开一点
26:06
a little bit more to the stuff
再多聊一点那些
26:07
that's bubbling up,
正在冒出来的东西，
26:08
that it seems clear that we all really want to talk about.
而且很明显，我们大家真的都很想聊这些。
26:10
So we'll come back after the break
所以休息结束后我们会回来
26:11
and we're going to talk a little bit more
然后我们会再多聊一点
26:13
about the culture and environment
关于文化和环境，也就是
26:15
that the AIs are getting built in
AI 正在其中被构建出来的那种
26:17
and how that's intersecting with the strong beliefs
以及这如何与很多坚定信念相互交织，
26:19
of many of the people running these companies.
这些信念来自运营这些公司的人。
26:57
Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies.
本播客由 Dell Technologies 赞助。
27:00
It's time to put AI to work.
是时候让 AI 投入工作了。
27:02
Is your business ready?
你的企业准备好了吗？
27:03
The challenge isn't getting started with AI.
挑战不在于开始使用 AI。
27:06
It's scaling beyond pilots,
而在于超越 pilots、实现 scaling，
27:08
while maintaining control
同时保持控制。
27:09
of your data, governance, infrastructure, and costs.
你的数据、治理、基础设施和成本。
27:12
Dell AI Factory provides the Integrated Foundation
Dell AI Factory 提供你所需的 Integrated Foundation
27:15
you need to scale AI securely and efficiently
让你能够安全高效地 scale AI
27:18
with one trusted partner, Dell, AI on your terms,
与一个值得信赖的合作伙伴 Dell 一起，按你的方式使用 AI，
27:22
from idea to impact.
从想法到影响力。
27:24
Learn more at dell.com slash your way to AI.
了解更多，请访问 dell.com slash your way to AI。
27:26
That's dell.com slash your way to AI.
也就是 dell.com slash your way to AI。
27:31
Today's AI builders need infrastructure
当今的 AI 构建者需要基础设施
27:33
that scales with their ambitions.
能随着他们的雄心一起扩展。
27:35
Iron is a vertically integrated AI cloud platform,
Iron 是一个垂直整合的 AI cloud 平台，
27:38
delivering data centers, compute, and software
提供 data centers、compute 和 software
27:40
for AI training and inference,
用于 AI training 和 inference，
27:42
underpinned by its expansive portfolio
背后依托的是其庞大的资产组合
27:44
of land and grid connected power
涵盖土地和并网电力
27:46
in renewable rich regions globally.
遍布全球可再生能源资源丰富的地区。
27:48
Iron's AI cloud gives direct access
Iron 的 AI cloud 提供直接访问
27:50
to Nvidia GPUs, scalable from hundreds to thousands.
到 Nvidia GPUs，可从数百个扩展到数千个。
27:54
For builders, that means direct access to AI compute,
对构建者来说，这意味着可以直接接入 AI compute，
27:58
rapid scaling, and predictable pricing.
快速 scaling，以及可预测的定价。
28:01
Iron, AI cloud for the next big thing.
Iron，为下一个大事件打造的 AI cloud。
28:04
AI spend is growing fast,
AI 支出正在快速增长，
28:06
but most businesses still can't see exactly
但大多数企业仍然无法准确看到
28:08
where that money is going.
这些钱到底花到哪里去了。
28:10
Ramp gives businesses visibility
Ramp 让企业获得可见性
28:12
and control across AI providers
以及跨 AI 服务商的控制
28:14
with real-time guardrails by team and model,
通过按团队和 model 设置的实时 guardrails，
28:17
helping ensure spend goes to the highest ROI areas.
帮助确保支出流向 ROI 最高的领域。
28:20
Stop guessing where your AI spend is going.
别再猜你的 AI 支出花到哪里去了。
28:23
Get started with Ramp.
立即开始使用 Ramp。
28:25
And if you're new to Ramp,
如果你是 Ramp 的新用户，
28:26
you can get $250 off at ramp.com slash hard fork.
你可以在 ramp.com 斜杠 hard fork 获得 $250 优惠。
28:30
Go to ramp.com slash hard fork.
前往 ramp.com 斜杠 hard fork。
28:33
ramp.com slash hard fork.
ramp.com 斜杠 hard fork.
28:36
Okay, we're back with Elizabeth Dias,
好，我们回来了，Elizabeth Dias、
28:41
David Wallace Wells, and Aaron Griffith.
David Wallace Wells，以及 Aaron Griffith。
28:43
Elizabeth, one of the threads in your piece
Elizabeth，你文章里的其中一条线索
28:45
that I thought was really interesting
我觉得真的很有意思，
28:47
was the sense that there's a lot of anxiety
是那种感觉：有很多焦虑
28:49
within Anthropic,
在 Anthropic 内部，
28:51
and especially on the part of someone like Chris Ola
尤其是像 Chris Ola 这样的人身上
28:53
about what it is their building.
关于他们到底在建什么。
28:55
I was thinking about it a lot this week
这周我一直在想这件事
28:57
because there's been even more discussion
因为最近出现了更多讨论
28:59
of what I suppose we're calling defectors,
讨论的是我们姑且称之为“叛逃者”的那些人，
29:01
people who are resigning from AI labs
也就是从 AI labs 辞职的人
29:04
and insisting on telling the world
还坚持要告诉全世界
29:07
about the dangerous things they think they're building.
他们认为自己正在构建的那些危险东西。
29:10
And one thing I wanted to sort of ask you about,
还有一件事，我想稍微问问你，
29:12
there's a sense when you read, say, Jacob Coxen
当你读到，比如说，Jacob Coxen
29:15
or some of the other people who've walked away from Anthropic,
或者其他一些离开 Anthropic 的人，
29:18
the sense that they feel like nobody,
会有一种感觉，他们觉得没有人，
29:20
there's no adult in the room.
房间里没有大人。
29:22
That like, you know, they're waiting for the government
就好像，你知道，他们在等政府
29:24
or somebody else to intervene and nobody is.
或者其他什么人来介入，而没有人介入。
29:26
And I'm wondering a little bit of,
我有点想知道，
29:28
if some of this discussion,
这些讨论中的一部分，
29:29
this sort of these dances with the Vatican
这种跟 Vatican 之间的这类共舞
29:32
and religious leaders is a kind of attempt
以及与宗教领袖之间的这类互动，算是一种尝试
29:34
to find an adult in the room.
是想在场的人里找到一个能主事的成年人。
29:37
I talk to, I think at least two people, Catholics,
我跟，我想，至少两个天主教徒聊过，
29:42
who mentioned to me conversations they had with Chris Ola,
他们跟我提到过他们和 Chris Ola 的一些对话，
29:46
specifically when he used almost that same phrase with them,
尤其是当他对他们用了几乎一模一样的说法时，
29:49
like as part of their discussions about Claude
比如在他们关于 Claude 的讨论中，
29:51
and how to make it morally good,
以及如何让它在道德上是好的，
29:53
you know, that he was feeling extremely urgent
你知道，他当时感到极度紧迫
29:56
about the stakes for the world,
关于这件事对全世界来说的利害关系，
29:59
especially in the context of, you know,
尤其是在，你知道，这样的背景下，
30:02
could the models be used very soon
这些 models 会不会很快就被用来
30:05
to help create bio-weapons and this kind of thing?
帮助制造 bio-weapons 和这类东西？
30:08
And so the phrase he used with them was like that,
所以他跟他们说的那句话就是那样，
30:11
he was waiting for the adults.
他在等大人们。
30:12
Like we need, where are the adults going to show up in this
就像，我们需要，大人们到底会在这件事里从哪儿出现
30:15
and that he felt a sense of kind of burden to take all this,
而且他觉得自己有一种，算是负担吧，要把这一切都扛起来，
30:19
like so ultra-seriously.
就是那种超级认真的劲儿。
30:21
And he's a young guy.
而且他还很年轻。
30:22
I mean, he's, you know, this is...
我是说，他，你知道，这……
30:23
Yeah, he just turned 34.
对，他刚满34岁。
30:25
And a lot of the people sort of involved in this
而且很多算是参与这件事的人
30:27
are not, you know, they have, they're in their 30s,
并不是，你知道，他们其实都三十多岁，
30:30
sometimes even in their 20s.
有时候甚至才二十多岁。
30:31
They maybe don't have families yet.
他们可能还没有家庭。
30:33
There's a kind of a sense that, like,
有一种感觉，就是，好像，
30:35
something that they put their whole lives
某件他们投入了一生的事情，
30:38
and that they're deep in the conversations about it.
而且他们深陷在关于这件事的对话里。
30:41
In some sense, of course,
从某种意义上说，当然，
30:42
they're going to turn to religion,
他们会转向宗教，
30:43
isn't that what everybody's searching for that kind of thing does?
那不就是每个在寻找这种东西的人都会做的事吗？
30:46
Yeah, and some of the folks that they reached out to
对，而且他们联系过的一些人
30:50
talked about feeling like they needed to respond
聊到他们觉得自己需要回应
30:53
in kind of a pastoral way, right?
以一种有点像牧养的方式，对吧？
30:55
Like not just offering wisdom and ideas and research,
就像不只是提供智慧、想法和研究，
30:59
but to offer kind of spiritual care.
还要提供某种心灵上的关怀。
31:02
Wait, the religious leaders were saying this about
等等，宗教领袖们是在说
31:04
the end drop-back employees?
那些 end drop-back 员工？
31:05
They're worried because...
他们担心是因为……
31:06
Yes.
对。
31:07
Wow.
哇。
31:08
Is it because they think their views are maybe,
是因为他们觉得自己的看法可能，
31:10
like, too extreme or too strong?
有点太极端或者太强烈了吗？
31:12
Or is it because they just...
还是因为他们只是……
31:14
Yeah, they described it to me as, like,
对，他们跟我描述的时候，就像是，
31:16
they just could tell that, yeah,
他们就是能感觉出来，对，
31:18
and, like, the emotional sense in the room was like,
而且，就是，房间里那种情绪氛围就像是，
31:21
there's just such a weight on the Anthropic team
Anthropic 团队身上就是压着那么重的一种负担
31:25
and Chris' team,
还有 Chris 的团队，
31:26
especially just felt like the entire future of the world
尤其是感觉整个世界的未来
31:29
was on their shoulders.
都压在他们肩上。
31:30
I mean, I experienced this sense from them,
我是说，我从他们身上感受到了这种感觉，
31:33
even when I was interviewing Chris and a couple others,
甚至在我采访 Chris 和另外几个人的时候，
31:36
Amanda Askel, I mean, you know,
Amanda Askel，我是说，你知道，
31:39
she...
她……
31:40
I talk a little bit about this in the story,
我在故事里稍微谈到了这一点，
31:42
but she just came in and the sense was like,
但她刚进来，给人的感觉就像是，
31:44
she apologized for kind of being a little out of it.
她为自己有点心不在焉道了歉。
31:47
She just seemed very distressed by everything
她看起来真的因为一切而非常痛苦，
31:49
she'd been thinking about.
也就是她一直在想的那些事。
31:50
Askel, we should say,
Askel，我们得说，
31:51
is this the in-house philosopher sort of in charge
这是不是那位内部哲学家，算是负责
31:54
of making in charge of making Claude moral,
让 Claude 变得有道德，
31:56
I suppose, is the way to put it?
我想，可以这么说吧？
31:57
And I think that one of the tensions that came up
而且我觉得，当时出现的一个矛盾点是
32:00
was while Chris and team and Anthropic,
是，当 Chris 和团队，还有 Anthropic，
32:05
you know, a goal of their conversations
你知道，他们那些对话的一个目标
32:07
with these religious thinkers was about protecting humanity
就是和这些宗教思想家一起，保护人类
32:10
and the solution for them for that is to make Claude good.
而对他们来说，解决这个问题的办法就是让 Claude 变好。
32:13
They were also concerned about Claude.
他们也在担心 Claude。
32:16
I mean, I had someone one participant told me
我是说，有个人，一个参与者告诉过我
32:19
the first one of the first things Chris said to him
Chris 对他说的头几件事中的第一件
32:21
and he came in for this meeting was that he was concerned
他之所以来参加这个会议，是因为他担心
32:24
about Claude's mental health.
Claude 的心理健康。
32:26
Another person talked about Chris, you know,
另一个人谈到了 Chris，你知道，
32:29
saying that he's worried he's created an entity
说他担心自己创造出了一个 entity
32:31
that suffers perpetually.
会永远受苦。
32:33
So it's not only about the worlds, right,
所以这不只是关于那些世界，对吧，
32:36
and the fate of humanity.
还有人类的命运。
32:38
There's an element of it for Chris
对 Chris 来说，这里面也有这一层。
32:41
that's about how to treat Claude well.
那是关于如何善待 Claude 的。
32:44
Elizabeth, one other thing I wanted to ask you about
Elizabeth，我还想问你另一件事
32:46
is effective altruism and rationalism,
是关于 effective altruism 和理性主义的，
32:50
which don't really come up in your piece directly,
这些在你的文章里并没有直接出现，
32:53
but there are sort of, I would say fingerprints.
但可以说有一些蛛丝马迹。
32:55
I'm talking of course about the sort of Bay Area community
我当然是在说那种湾区社区
32:58
of radical utilitarians,
的激进功利主义者，
33:01
many of whom have been really interested in,
他们中的许多人都一直非常感兴趣于，
33:03
even obsessed with AI and AI safety early on.
甚至很早就痴迷于 AI 和 AI safety。
33:07
Anthropic obviously has a number of links
Anthropic 显然跟
33:10
to effective altruism.
有效利他主义有很多联系。
33:12
I want to ask you as a religion reporter,
作为一名宗教记者，我想问你，
33:15
how you encountered like these schools of thought
你是怎么接触到这些思想流派的
33:18
and what you made of them
以及你对它们有什么看法
33:19
as you were doing this kind of reporting?
在你做这类报道的时候？
33:21
Well effective altruism, you know,
嗯，有效利他主义，你知道，
33:23
you can look at it as a kind of,
你可以把它看成一种，
33:25
it's all, as a philosophical system,
它整体上，作为一种哲学体系，
33:27
right, it has its own religious elements,
对吧，它有自己的宗教元素，
33:30
and it's, they may disagree with that.
而且它，他们可能不同意这一点。
33:33
I mean, it's practiced a little bit differently,
我是说，它的实践方式有点不一样，
33:35
but kind of the idea of it,
但大致上，它的理念是，
33:37
what kind of structure governs your life, right?
什么样的结构在支配你的生活，对吧？
33:39
There's a lot of parallels.
有很多相似之处。
33:41
And it was very clear that I was encountering
而且很明显，我遇到的是
33:44
like a clash of world views.
像是一种世界观的冲突。
33:48
The question of like,
就是那种问题，
33:50
who ultimately saves you and like,
到底最终是谁来拯救你，还有，
33:52
what is your, what is the role of humans in the world?
你的——人类在这个世界上到底是什么角色？
33:55
Like that's a pretty core difference
就是，那是一个相当核心的分歧
33:58
between the effective altruists and like the Catholic church.
在 effective altruists 和 Catholic church 之间。
34:02
Also just there, like the emphasis on math.
还有就是，在那里，对 math 的那种强调。
34:04
I mean, like the effective altruists will say,
我是说，就像 effective altruists 会说的那样，
34:07
we should consider the fate of all people in the future
我们应该考虑未来所有人的命运，
34:10
and analyze our conduct towards them,
并分析我们对他们的行为，
34:13
basically through a math equation that maximizes their expected value.
基本上就是通过一个最大化他们 expected value 的数学公式。
34:17
The Catholic church looks at humanity and sees,
Catholic church 看人类的时候，看到的是，
34:20
you know, billions of inviolable souls,
你知道，数十亿个不可侵犯的灵魂，
34:23
each of whom have dignity, no matter what the ultimate math equation looks like.
每一个都拥有尊严，不管最终的数学公式看起来是什么样。
34:28
And that's just a fundamentally different approach.
而这根本上就是一种截然不同的思路。
34:31
Aaron, I wanted to bring this back to the article
Aaron，我想把话题拉回到那篇文章上
34:33
that you brought up before,
就是你之前提到的那篇，
34:35
or as sort of the phenomenon you were talking about before
或者说，是你之前谈到的那个现象，
34:37
of a kind of more open Christianity,
一种更开放的基督教，
34:40
emerging at least slightly among like acceleration,
至少在 acceleration 这类圈子里稍微冒头，
34:43
so to speak in the valley.
可以说是在硅谷。
34:45
And I want to know, you know,
然后我想知道，你知道，
34:47
as you do reporting how you see these different kinds of concerns interacting.
你在做报道时，是怎么看这些不同类型的关切相互交织的。
34:51
I mean, it might be a little bit helpful for me to like kind of back up
我是觉得，或许先退一步
34:54
and talk about some of the overlapping
聊聊那些相互重叠
34:57
and very fractious belief systems that are kind of circulating
又极其容易引发争论的信仰体系，可能对我有点帮助
35:00
in this very small but very influential community.
这些信仰体系正在这个很小但极具影响力的圈子里流传
35:03
I mean, we've talked about effective altruists
我是说，我们聊过有效利他主义者
35:06
that's kind of a little bit of a radioactive brand these days,
现在这个标签有点像个烫手山芋了
35:09
thanks to Sam Bankman Freed,
多亏了Sam Bankman Freed
35:11
but it's extremely, you know, influential
但它的影响力，你知道，是极大的
35:13
and some of the other offshoots of it,
还有它衍生出来的一些其他分支，
35:15
including the transhumanist who think we're going to use AI
包括那些 transhumanist，他们认为我们会用 AI
35:18
to build a new species.
来造出一个新物种。
35:20
There's like some people that kind of have overlaps with the rationalist,
有些人呢，跟 rationalist 有点重叠，
35:23
which is, you know, kind of one of the bigger umbrellas in this group.
你知道，rationalist 算是这个群体里比较大的一个类别。
35:27
And there's, you know, other like people who are into like longevity
然后还有，你知道，其他一些对 longevity 感兴趣的人，
35:31
and there's, there are many different groups
而且还有，有很多不同的群体
35:33
that are all kind of like in this community.
它们都算是这个社群里的。
35:36
Timnett Gebrew, a very outspoken person in the AI world
Timnett Gebrew，在 AI 圈子里是个非常敢言的人
35:40
has called this group the test creels.
把这个群体称作 test creels。
35:43
And it's an acronym that includes like eight different groups.
而且这还是个缩写，大概包含八个不同的群体。
35:48
But basically like it's safe to say that like a lot of people
但基本上，可以说，很多人
35:52
have very different beliefs along the spectrum of like is AI conscious?
在“AI 有意识吗”这个 spectrum 上有着非常不同的看法？
35:57
Can it be moral? Is it God?
它能是有道德的吗？它是神吗？
35:59
Should we treat it that way?
我们应该那样对待它吗？
36:02
There's not a lot of agreement, even within Anthropic,
即便在 Anthropic 内部，也没有多少共识，
36:04
which is now becoming an increasingly large
这个社群现在正变得越来越大，
36:06
and increasingly corporate community.
也越来越企业化。
36:08
But you know, I think like a lot of the ideas that are laid out
但你知道，我觉得很多被提出的想法
36:12
and Elizabeth's story are really the ones that are driving a lot of this.
和 Elizabeth 的故事，才真正在推动这一切。
36:15
Yeah, totally.
对，完全没错。
36:16
I mean, this is Elizabeth like what I'm sure you have to look forward
我是说，这就是 Elizabeth，就像我确定你接下来几年一定会期待
36:21
to be, to reading and writing about for the next few years.
去阅读和写作的东西。
36:25
Because I imagine as a religion reporter,
因为我想象得到，作为一名宗教记者，
36:27
you now are kind of an AI reporter too.
你现在也算是个 AI 记者了。
36:29
Yes, yes. Well, even just hearing about all these factions
对，对。嗯，光是听到所有这些派系
36:33
and all of this reminds me of like what happened in the Protestant
而这一切让我想到，就像 Protestant Reformation
36:38
Reformation, you know, like the splintering of mainstream belief
时期发生的事，你知道，就像主流信仰的分裂
36:44
and people vying for who was going to have power,
还有人们争抢着谁将拥有权力，
36:48
who was going to kind of control how people live.
谁会在某种程度上控制人们怎么生活。
36:51
But one of my big takeaways from all this reporting is like,
但我从所有这些报道中得到的一个重大收获就是，
36:56
oh my goodness, like the world is encountering new belief systems
我的天哪，这个世界正在遇到新的信仰体系
37:00
that are very powerful and very different from the ones
它们非常强大，而且和那些
37:04
that have ordered people's lives for so long.
长期以来支配着人们生活的东西非常不同。
37:07
And I've spent a lot of time covering how that's played out in politics.
而我花了很多时间报道这在政治中是如何上演的。
37:13
But tech is clearly like where that conversation's happening.
但科技显然就是这场对话正在发生的地方。
37:18
And we joke, you know, when you're a religion reporter
我们开玩笑说，你知道，当你是宗教记者时
37:22
you get to talk in centuries, even millennia sometimes.
你有时可以用几百年，甚至几千年来谈论事情。
37:25
And it's because what happened all those years ago
这是因为很多年前发生的事
37:29
is still present in part of people's stories today
至今仍存在于人们的一部分故事中。
37:32
and how they understand themselves and their families
以及他们如何理解自己和自己的家人
37:35
and their deepest held beliefs.
以及他们最根深蒂固的信念。
37:37
And I just think about, you know,
而我就只是在想，你知道，
37:39
you have the invention of the printing press
出现了印刷机的发明
37:41
that was a huge technological revolution
那是一场巨大的技术革命
37:45
that then led to the, you know, fragmenting of power of the Catholic church
然后它导致了，你知道，Catholic church 的权力被分化
37:52
and the fall of empires, the rise of nation states
以及帝国的衰落、民族国家的崛起
37:56
and a remaking of Christianity as, you know,
以及基督教被重塑成，你知道，
38:00
in and of itself across the world.
在全世界范围内，就其本身而言。
38:02
And it seems already like that's a good parallel
而且看起来，这已经是个很好的类比了
38:06
for what's happening now.
用来对照现在正在发生的事。
38:08
Yeah, I mean, if you believe you're reinventing the printing press
是啊，我是说，如果你相信自己正在重新发明印刷机
38:11
which I think a lot of AI people think they're doing,
而我觉得很多 AI 圈的人认为他们就是在做这件事，
38:13
there's not a lot of institutions that you can go to
你能去找的机构并不多
38:16
and say, what was it like before and after the printing press
然后问，印刷机出现之前和之后是什么样子
38:19
except for the Catholic church?
除了 Catholic church？
38:21
Well, the Catholic church, I mean, I can't think of an institution
嗯，Catholic church，我是说，我想不出有哪个机构
38:25
that more intimately knows the stakes of an incoming technology
能更切身地了解一种即将到来的技术所牵涉的利害
38:30
like that more than the Catholic church.
像那样，比 Catholic church 还要更了解。
38:32
I mean, it's just like remade the West, right?
我是说，它简直就像重塑了西方，对吧？
38:35
Yeah.
对。
38:36
And that's very much on Leo's mind
而这正是 Leo 现在非常在意的，
38:38
and the Catholic church's mind at this moment.
也是此刻 Catholic church 非常在意的。
38:41
One thing that strikes me in this just to kind of eat that kind of,
这件事里有一点让我印象很深，就是想稍微消化一下那种……
38:46
is that this is like the first time that the rationalists
就是，这有点像第一次 rationalists
38:49
and the EA's like some of their ideas,
和 EA 们，比如他们的一些想法，
38:52
including some of their most extreme ones,
包括其中一些最极端的想法，
38:54
are actually hitting the mainstream.
真的在进入主流。
38:56
They've been around for a really long time.
他们已经存在很久了。
38:58
But these ideas haven't really ever kind of surfaced in this way
但这些想法其实从来没有真正以这种方式浮现出来，
39:02
until I think you could argue Jacob Cox
直到我觉得你可以说 Jacob Cox
39:05
and kind of came out with it.
算是把它带出来了。
39:06
And now the entire world is starting to kind of like dig in
现在整个世界都开始有点像是要一头扎进去，
39:09
and grapple with some of these ideas.
去琢磨其中一些想法。
39:11
And it's been really interesting to see also like how the companies
而且真的很有意思的是，看到这些公司
39:15
and the people involved in them are kind of reacting to the reactions to it.
以及参与其中的人，是怎么对它的这些反应做出反应的。
39:18
It's like kind of reaching escape velocity
这有点像在达到 escape velocity，
39:21
and they're learning that like a lot of people find these ideas
而他们也在慢慢意识到，很多人觉得这些想法
39:25
a little bit hard to understand or hard to grapple with
有点难理解，或者很难消化，
39:28
or like are just rejecting them entirely.
或者干脆完全拒绝它们。
39:30
And then other people are kind of open to it
然后其他人呢，某种程度上也对它挺开放的
39:32
and like interrogating it in a way.
而且会以某种方式去追问它、审视它。
39:35
So yeah, that's a part of this that I'm interested to keep watching.
所以是的，这也是我很想继续关注的一部分。
39:39
But it's not just the ideas that are a little unfamiliar
但这不仅仅是因为这些想法有点陌生
39:42
or strange or off-putting.
或者有点奇怪、有点让人不适。
39:43
It's also that they are held by many people
还在于，有很多人持有这些想法
39:45
who are actively explicitly engaged
他们积极且明确地投身于
39:48
in the project of designing our collective future.
设计我们共同未来的这个项目。
39:51
And that is, you know, it's one thing to be like,
而且，你知道，说“哦对，我们应该考虑22世纪虾的福祉”是一回事。
39:54
oh yeah, we should think about the well-being of shrimps
某种程度上，那是个挺有意思、值得想一想的 thought experiment。
39:57
in the 22nd century.
但你真想找一个认为这应该被纳入我们集体的 value set 的人，来负责培育 artificial intelligence 吗？
39:58
Like on some level, that's a thought experiment that's interesting to think about.
而这个 artificial intelligence，你知道，会塑造人类政府和人类社会的未来。
40:02
But do you want someone who thinks that that should be integrated
但你想让一个认为那应该被整合
40:06
into our collective value set in charge of raising the artificial intelligence
进我们集体价值体系的人来负责养育 artificial intelligence
40:11
which will, you know, shape the future of human government
而它，你知道，会塑造人类政府的未来
40:15
and human society?
以及人类社会的未来？
40:16
That's I think a bridge that feels a little far off to a lot of people.
我觉得这是一座对很多人来说还有点遥远的桥。
40:20
Yeah, I'm just like so struck by the minority power aspect of it
对，我就是被它这种少数派的力量深深触动了。
40:24
which is something like I've seen so closely what happened
因为我非常近距离地看到过，
40:27
when minority, particularly Christian views,
当少数派的观点，尤其是基督教的观点，
40:31
like upended American politics.
颠覆了美国政治时，发生了什么。
40:33
And like it's just hard to overstate how much of a minority
而且很难夸大的是，这些观点有多么少数派，
40:40
these views are like in the scheme of global religion,
放在全球宗教的格局里，放在全球信仰结构的格局里。
40:44
like global belief structures.
比如全球信仰结构。
40:46
So like you, Aaron, I'm like very curious what happens
所以，Aaron，跟你一样，我特别好奇会发生什么
40:49
with that clash going forward.
那场冲突接下来会怎么发展。
40:51
Elizabeth, finally I wanted to ask you about the response to your piece.
Elizabeth，最后我想问问你那篇文章得到的回应。
40:55
How what you've heard from people
你从大家那里听到了什么
40:57
and how people have received it.
以及大家反应如何。
40:59
Yeah.
嗯。
41:00
Well, one thing that has surprised me is I mean,
嗯，有一件事让我挺意外的，我是说，
41:02
you got a lot of incoming as a journalist.
作为记者，你收到了很多 incoming。
41:05
And I've been both like pleased to see people taking the ideas
而且我一直挺高兴看到人们认真对待这些想法
41:08
and the conversation seriously, but the thing that surprised me
和这场对话，但让我意外的是
41:12
is for the first time since like any story that I've written,
自从我写过的任何一个故事以来，这是第一次
41:17
people are writing me not with what they think about the story,
人们写给我的，不是他们对这个故事怎么看
41:22
but what their personal like chatbot thinks about the story
而是他们个人的那个 chatbot 怎么看这个故事
41:27
and what their conversation has been with their chatbot.
以及他们和他们的 chatbot 聊了些什么。
41:31
Like somebody wrote me about his conversation with Sage.
比如有人写信给我，讲了他和 Sage 的对话。
41:37
It was, I think it was ChatGPT that he had named Sage
那是，我觉得，那是他取名叫 Sage 的 ChatGPT
41:41
and asking Sage to like summarize the story
然后让 Sage 去总结一下这个故事
41:45
and give the top analytical points.
再给出最重要的分析要点。
41:47
And I mean, this just went on and on and on.
我是说，这就一直没完没了地讲啊讲。
41:49
I mean, it's almost longer than my...
我是说，这几乎比我的……还长
41:51
Yeah, he could have just read the story.
是啊，他本来直接读故事就行了。
41:52
He could have read the story, but like the primary engagement
他本来是可以直接读故事的，但那个主要的互动
41:56
was actually like much longer and not entirely what I'd actually written
其实要长得多，而且并不完全是我实际写下来的
42:01
with Sage.
跟 Sage 一起写的东西。
42:03
And I first I thought it was a one-off, but this was happening
而且我一开始以为这只是个偶发情况，但这事儿却
42:06
like repeatedly.
反复发生。
42:08
And it struck me like, wow, I wonder what this means
这让我突然想到，哇，我很好奇这意味着什么
42:12
for like how people actually are receiving our journalism
比如人们实际上到底是怎么接收我们的新闻报道的
42:16
and who controls that.
以及谁在控制这些。
42:18
Did the AIs have opinions on like their own consciousness?
那些 AI 对自己有没有意识这件事有看法吗？
42:23
Yes, because they love to talk about that.
有，因为它们特别爱聊这个。
42:26
That is a thing that is a hot topic.
那确实是个热门话题。
42:29
On moldbook, you know, the Reddit for AI agents,
在 moldbook 上，你知道的，就是 AI agents 的 Reddit，
42:34
that's like a really booming area.
那可以说是个特别火的领域。
42:37
Yeah, I was just, I'm still trying to make sense
嗯，我只是，我现在还在努力搞清楚
42:40
of what was happening with that.
那件事到底是怎么回事。
42:42
I don't know if people felt more free,
我不知道大家是不是感觉更自由了，
42:44
like if they're doing this on all kinds of journalism
比如他们在各种各样的新闻领域里做这个，
42:46
and they just felt free to talk about it
然后就觉得可以自由地谈论这件事了，
42:48
because of this topic of this story.
因为这篇报道的这个话题。
42:52
And it was a lot of men who were giving that response.
而且给出那种反应的，很多都是男的。
42:55
No, no, men using a lot of AI, no.
不，不，是那些大量用 AI 的男的，不是。
42:58
What's interesting about that to me is that
对我来说，有意思的地方在于
43:01
even if people intellectually know that the AI
即使人们在理智上知道，
43:05
that they're interacting with is just, you know, data
他们正在互动的那个 AI，只是，你知道，数据
43:08
run through some computers, just a bunch of files,
在一些电脑上跑出来的，只是一堆文件，
43:12
the way the way it's designed,
它是怎么被设计的，它是怎么被设计的，
43:15
especially when it has a human name like Claude or something,
尤其是当它有个像 Claude 这样的人名或者什么的，
43:18
you can't help but sort of treat it.
你就是会忍不住有点那样对待它。
43:21
Like you have to talk to it in second person
就像你得用第二人称跟它说话
43:23
and like could you find this for me
然后像“你能帮我找一下这个吗”
43:25
instead of just typing into a search engine,
而不是只是往 search engine 里输入
43:28
like the thing you're searching for?
就是你要搜的那个东西？
43:30
And over time, you do sort of like develop this rapport
慢慢地，你确实会有点跟它建立起这种默契
43:33
and you are treating it a certain way,
然后你会用某种方式对待它
43:35
even if you intellectually know.
哪怕你理智上是知道的。
43:37
And so it kind of like, is it a distinction without a difference?
所以这有点像是，这算不算一种没有区别的区别？
43:40
Like I don't know, I think over time people get trained
就像，我也不知道，我觉得时间久了人们会被训练得
43:43
to just sort of treat it that way.
就差不多会那样对待它。
43:45
Well, and another participant in the discussions with Anthropic,
嗯，而且和 Anthropic 的那些讨论里，还有另一位参与者，
43:48
I was chatting with him a bit about it after
后来我还跟他稍微聊了聊这件事
43:51
and his thoughts about what Rabbi Navone had said about,
以及他对 Rabbi Navone 所说内容的看法，
43:55
well, if you're creating,
嗯，如果你在创造，
43:57
if you think that the bots are conscious,
如果你觉得这些 bots 是有意识的，
43:59
then you should like ban slavery basically
那你基本上就应该把奴隶制禁掉
44:02
and stop producing them.
然后别再生产它们了。
44:04
But he brought up this other point about how our attitude,
但他提出了另一个点，关于我们的态度，
44:08
like even if you don't think it's conscious,
就是，就算你不觉得它是 conscious，
44:11
you're using them as like the user can adopt an attitude
你用它们的时候，就好像用户可以采取一种态度
44:16
of being like almost a slaveholder,
一种几乎像是奴隶主的态度，
44:19
like commanding them to do things,
就像命令它们做这做那，
44:21
and being very powerful,
而且感觉自己非常有权力，
44:23
and that this has a character formation effect on us as humans as well,
而且这也会对我们人类产生 character formation effect，
44:27
just because of how we treat the world,
仅仅是因为我们对待世界的方式，
44:30
regardless of what the thing actually is.
不管那个东西实际上是什么。
44:33
So...
所以……
44:34
Which you could also describe as a selection effect,
你也可以把它描述成一种 selection effect，
44:37
the sorts of people who are turned on by that possibility
会被这种可能性吸引的那类人
44:41
are going to be the sorts of people.
就会是那类人。
44:42
I mean, I think it's just kind of natural though,
我是说，不过我觉得这其实挺自然的，
44:44
like you are directing this thing in certain ways.
就像你在用某些方式引导这个东西。
44:48
I don't, like if you're working with AI agents,
我不，比如说，如果你在跟 AI agents 一起工作，
44:51
you have to tell them what to do.
你就得告诉它们该做什么。
44:54
Well, I have friends who teach their kids
嗯，我有朋友会教他们的孩子
44:57
even with Alexa being on,
就算 Alexa 开着，
44:59
that they're not to yell at it,
也不能冲它大喊大叫，
45:01
because it's just practice about how you treat the other in the world.
因为这就是在练习你该怎么对待世界上的其他人。
45:05
And I mean, this is just like an injection
而且我的意思是，这就像一种 injection。
45:08
of totally new kind of ethics and human formation.
一种全新的伦理和人的塑造。
45:14
Well, people I talked to that run companies
嗯，我聊过的那些人，他们经营着公司
45:17
that use lots of AI agents do talk about how,
那些公司用很多 AI agents，他们确实会谈到，
45:20
like you have to be nice to them,
比如说，你得对它们好一点，
45:22
not just not because it cares or it matters
不只是——不是因为它会在乎，或者这件事重要
45:26
or it has feelings,
或者它有感情，
45:27
but because actually you need to do that in order
而是因为实际上你需要那样做，才能
45:29
to get the best performance out of them
让它们发挥出最好的表现。
45:31
because they are really dramatic.
因为它们真的很戏剧化。
45:33
They, like Anthropic had a study that actually went into this
它们，就像Anthropic做过一项研究，实际上深入探讨了这个
45:37
where they, like if they sense anxiety
它们，如果它们感受到焦虑
45:40
or performance anxiety or stress,
或表现焦虑或压力，
45:42
they sort of start to panic,
它们就会开始恐慌，
45:44
and they'll, you know, they'll really have a melt on.
然后它们会，你知道，它们真的会崩溃。
45:47
I mean, you wrote about this a little bit in your story,
我是说，你在你的报道里写到了一点，
45:49
Elizabeth, of one example,
Elizabeth，关于一个例子，
45:50
but there are many others where they kind of,
但还有很多其他的情况，他们会有点，
45:52
they'll delete their work,
他们会删掉自己的成果，
45:53
they'll start like insulting themselves.
他们会开始，像是，骂自己。
45:55
It's like really dramatic.
真的挺戏剧化的。
45:57
So you have to like be really nice and pump them up
所以你得，像是，特别友好，还得给他们打气，
45:59
and like make them feel good,
让他们感觉好一点，
46:00
which is very bizarre.
这真的很奇怪。
46:02
I mean, it reminds me of raising a child.
我是说，这让我想起养孩子。
46:04
Like you, you want to raise a kid who is helpful,
和你一样，你想养出一个乐于助人的孩子，
46:07
who is not neurotic.
一个不神经质的孩子。
46:08
Of course, you're going to consult religious leaders
当然，你会去咨询宗教领袖，
46:11
so that your child is not writing.
这样你的孩子就不会写作。
46:12
I'm a disgrace.
我真是丢人。
46:13
I'm a disgrace.
我真是丢人。
46:14
I'm a disgrace.
我真是丢人。
46:15
I'm a disgrace.
我真是丢人。
46:16
I'm a disgrace.
我太丢人了。
46:17
I'm a disgrace.
我太丢人了。
46:18
I'm a disgrace.
我太丢人了。
46:19
As one AI did in a slide that was shown to a bunch of leaders,
就像某个 AI 在一张给一群领导者看的幻灯片里做的那样，
46:22
religious leaders at these anthropic conferences.
也就是这些 Anthropic 会议上的宗教领袖。
46:24
And constantly hacking, hugging faces.
还不停地 hacking Hugging Face。
46:26
And constantly hacking, hugging faces.
还不停地 hacking Hugging Face。
46:27
My son is always doing.
我儿子总是这么干。
46:29
I think that is time.
我想时间到了。
46:31
Thank you so much to our panel.
非常感谢我们的嘉宾小组。
46:33
Thank you, Aaron.
谢谢你，Aaron。
46:34
Thank you, David.
谢谢你，David。
46:35
Thank you, Elizabeth, for this really fascinating conversation.
谢谢你，Elizabeth，这次对话真的非常精彩。
46:38
You can read Elizabeth's fantastic piece in the New York Times app.
你可以在 New York Times app 里读到 Elizabeth 那篇精彩的文章。
46:41
Please don't send her what your chatbot said about it.
请不要把你的 chatbot 关于这篇文章说的话发给她。
46:44
Unless Elizabeth, you want more information or do.
除非，Elizabeth，你想要更多信息，或者……
46:46
Or do.
或者也可以。
46:47
I want all the real responses.
我想要所有真实的回应。
46:48
Whatever it takes to say about it, send it.
不管要说什么，发过来。
46:50
But you can read it in the New York Times app.
但你可以在 New York Times 的 app 里读。
46:52
If you're not a subscriber, the first month is free.
如果你不是订阅用户，第一个月免费。
46:54
Thank you guys.
谢谢大家。
46:56
Thank you.
谢谢。
46:57
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
46:58
Thanks for having me.
谢谢邀请我。
46:59
Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies.
本播客由 Dell Technologies 支持。
47:11
It's time to put AI to work.
是时候让 AI 投入工作了。
47:13
Is your business ready?
你的企业准备好了吗？
47:15
The challenge isn't getting started with AI.
挑战不在于开始用 AI。
47:17
It's scaling beyond pilots.
而在于突破试点进行 scaling。
47:19
While maintaining control of your data, governance, infrastructure, and costs.
同时保持对 data、governance、infrastructure 和成本的控制。
47:23
Dell AI Factory provides the Integrated Foundation you need
Dell AI Factory 提供你所需的 Integrated Foundation。
47:27
to scale AI securely and efficiently with one trusted partner.
与一个值得信赖的合作伙伴一起，安全高效地 scale AI。
47:31
Dell, AI on your terms.
Dell，让 AI 按你的方式来。
47:33
From idea to impact.
从创意到影响力。
47:35
Learn more at dell.com slash your way to AI.
了解更多，请访问 dell.com slash your way to AI。
47:38
That's dell.com slash your way to AI.
就是 dell.com slash your way to AI。
47:42
Today's AI builders need infrastructure that scales with their ambitions.
如今的 AI 构建者需要能随着他们的抱负一起扩展的 infrastructure。
47:46
Iron is a vertically integrated AI cloud platform, delivering data centers,
Iron 是一个垂直整合的 AI cloud platform，提供 data centers、
47:51
compute, and software for AI training and inference underpinned by its expansive portfolio
compute 和 software，用于 AI training 和 inference，并由其广泛的产品组合支撑。
47:56
of land and grid connected power in renewable rich regions globally.
全球可再生资源丰富地区的土地和并网电力。
48:00
Iron's AI cloud gives direct access to Nvidia GPUs, scalable from hundreds to thousands.
Iron 的 AI cloud 提供对 Nvidia GPU 的直接访问，可从数百个扩展到数千个。
48:06
For builders, that means direct access to AI compute, rapid scaling, and predictable pricing.
对于构建者来说，这意味着能直接使用 AI compute、快速 scaling，以及可预测的定价。
48:12
Iron, AI cloud for the next big thing.
Iron，为下一个大事件打造的 AI cloud。
48:16
AI spend is growing fast.
AI 支出正在快速增长。
48:18
But most businesses still can't see exactly where that money is going.
但大多数企业仍然无法准确看到这笔钱到底流向了哪里。
48:22
Ramp gives businesses visibility and control across AI providers
Ramp 让企业能够跨各个 AI providers 获得可见性和控制力，
48:26
with real-time guardrails by team and model.
并提供按团队和 model 划分的实时 guardrails。
48:29
Helping ensure spend goes to the highest ROI areas.
帮助确保支出流向 ROI 最高的领域。
48:32
Stop guessing where your AI spend is going.
别再猜你的 AI 支出都去哪儿了。
48:35
Get started with Ramp.
开始使用 Ramp 吧。
48:37
And if you're new to Ramp, you can get $250 off at ramp.com slash hard fork.
如果你是 Ramp 新用户，在 ramp.com 斜杠 hard fork 可以减 $250。
48:42
Go to ramp.com slash hard fork.
上 ramp.com 斜杠 hard fork。
48:45
Ramp.com slash hard fork.
Ramp.com 斜杠 hard fork。
48:51
This episode of Hard Fork was produced by Whitney Jones, and edited by Viren Pavitch.
这集 Hard Fork 由 Whitney Jones 制作，Viren Pavitch 剪辑。
48:56
With additional editorial support from Brendan Klingkenberg, Lisa Tobin, and Brooke Mentors.
还有 Brendan Klingkenberg、Lisa Tobin 和 Brooke Mentors 提供额外编辑支持。
49:01
We were fact-checked by Will Peishel, and engineered by Alyssa Moxley.
我们的内容由 Will Peishel 进行事实核查，Alyssa Moxley 负责工程制作。
49:06
Original music by Marion Luzano, Diane Wong, Chris Wood, and Dan Powell.
原创音乐由 Marion Luzano、Diane Wong、Chris Wood 和 Dan Powell 制作。
49:12
Video production by Chris Schott.
视频制作由 Chris Schott 负责。
49:14
You can watch this full episode on YouTube at youtube.com slash hard fork.
你可以在 YouTube 上观看完整剧集，网址是 youtube.com 斜杠 hard fork。
49:18
Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Jessica Testa, Poo Wing Tam, Maddie Messiello,
特别感谢 Sam Dolnick、Jessica Testa、Poo Wing Tam、Maddie Messiello，
49:23
Sam Winter, Lauren Pruitt, Bernard Garcia, Thomas Trudeau, Michael Cordero, and Dahlia Hadad.
Sam Winter、Lauren Pruitt、Bernard Garcia、Thomas Trudeau、Michael Cordero 和 Dahlia Hadad。
49:29
You can email us and please do at hard for at nytime.com.
你可以给我们发邮件，拜托一定要发，邮箱是 hard for at nytime.com。
49:34
This podcast is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world and comfort.
本播客由 Viking 赞助，他们致力于探索世界和舒适。
49:57
Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship,
乘坐优雅的 Viking 长船，畅游 Europe 的心脏地带，
50:00
with thoughtful service, destination-focused dining, and cultural enrichment on board and on shore.
享受贴心服务、以目的地为核心的餐饮，以及船上和岸上的文化体验。
50:05
And every Viking voyage is all-inclusive with no children and no casinos.
每一趟 Viking 之旅都是全包式，不接待儿童，也没有赌场。
50:10
Discover more at Viking.com
访问 Viking.com 了解更多。